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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> cam journal repair with JB Weld /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1235765948 Message started by Chief Gunner on 02/27/09 at 12:19:07 |
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Title: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 02/27/09 at 12:19:07 I started a post a few weeks back and promised to try a post pics with the progress. I cleaned the head and cover real good and got a better look and it appears that a previous owner may have already tried it. What do you guys think. http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt96/wrightw45/IMG_2020.jpg http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt96/wrightw45/IMG_2021.jpg Any ideas??? :-/ |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/09 at 12:30:03 What would happen if the gaps were plastigauged & a piece of a feeler gauge was JB'ed in, so the feeler gauge steel carried the oil/cam load & the JB held the feeler gauge strip in place? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by T Mack 1 on 02/27/09 at 12:48:44 312E282F32350434043C2E22695B0 wrote:
The feeler gauge is hard steel, it would most likely damage the cam |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/09 at 16:39:51 Dan Quail school of spelling? ;D You have to find a place that will host them, like bikepics or the like and paste in the address in between the brackets like so... {img]http:\\yada.yada.yada.jpg[/img} to find the address of your pic, right click on it, select properties then it on the general page. highlight the address copy it paste it. that simple. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/09 at 16:41:04 5C2545696B6339080 wrote:
The feeler gauge is hard steel, it would most like damage the cam[/quote] hard steel against hard steel not good, don't count on oil always being there. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by smokin_blue on 02/28/09 at 10:51:20 525958545756445F5F5443310 wrote:
Looks to me like just the standard smeared aluminum of a cam running dry |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/09 at 14:56:19 You could buy some brass shim stock (comes pretty thin) and try to epoxy that in place. You would likely have to ream out the head to make room for it though. Key thing here is to document what you try and report honestly the success or failure of the various methods. Too many dead heads out there, something has to be developed that actually works well and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. The JB Weld trick falls into this class or type of fix. We have MMRanch saying he did the JB Weld trick for 8,000 miles now, so we have some verbal info but no pictures before and after. An opinion looking at your before pic is that the aluminum of the head is smeared. I don't see any JB Weld, I just see extreme heat and oil residues. Warning -- if that bearing area gets that hot nothing is going to work. Sorry, something is out of whack to cause that much heat. Is your cam warped (running good on outer races but wobbling in the center race causing all the heat and damage)? Spin it on "V" blocks and check with a dial indicator on the center journal before putting it back together. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 02/28/09 at 15:25:56 I'll check the cam and get back to you. I don't have a dial caliper but I'll find a way to check it. The other journals look like they are straight from the factory. Might as well check the oil ports too but at first glance they look good. The local machine shops won't touch a job this small or claim they don't have a tool small enough to bore grind it. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/28/09 at 15:28:54 Once you have the cam sitting in a stand you can use about anything to see if its bent. Tape a wire to a flashlight & slide it closer & closer, slowly rotating the cam & if the gap between the end of the wire & the cam changes, well, she aint quite straight. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 02/28/09 at 17:05:36 Well gunny, you're the one with eyes on (dems is great pics btw) take a blade and scrape it to see if it's plastic or aluminum. Are those both the same side? or is it from opposite sides? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Kropatchek on 03/01/09 at 08:49:27 Looks like the bearing surface lacked lubrication. Some time ago ( 2years) I helped someone with a Savage engine with the same rotten bearings. Scraped them out a bit and put everything together. Has been running for 6000 KM since. Wonder how it looks to-day. ::) |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/01/09 at 11:02:05 Started the repair today. Checked the cam shaft with v-blocks made out of clothes pins drilled into a 2x4 and a sharpie as an indicator, found no wobble. Crude but hopefully effective. Would definitly attribute to excessive heat judging by the discoloration around the journal. I scraped away the parts that smeared out of the journal area and wet sanded the edges to make sure I didn't have any metal sticking up. I left some of the grooves in the journal itself alone so the JB weld would have something to stick to. I warmed up the head and top cover in the oven to 170 since it was only 45 degrees in the garage let cool to room temp and cleaned the surfaces with lauquer thinner. Used teflon tape on the camshaft and assembled and tourqued to spec's. I'll leave it alone for at least 48 hours and keep inside at room temp before I attempt to disassemble. I likely will not be able to get the c-ring guide back out but that shouldn't be a problem. I've got some good step by step close ups of both sides and will take shots after to document. It will be a few more months before she hits the road but I intend to perform an oil change at about 500 and will pull the cover off to see how it does. If anyone wants the shots sooner let me know and I'll post them. Thanks for all the ideas guys. 8-) |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/09 at 13:15:12 Chief Gunner, please excuse the possibly stupid question, but I gots to ask it. I have never had my head apart, so I don't know the answer to this question but something Mescapatori said clicked when I saw your picture. Do we have a center cam journal that does NOT have a forced pressure oil port fed from the oil gallery, but instead relies upon a cut into only one side of the circular aluminum journal, a single "oil groove" to carry oil into the journal from the head bathtub area? In other words, are you working on a "built in" non-pressurized failure point? If the oil bath in the head recess gets low at any point in time the non-gallery non-pressurized center journal "groove" lube system runs dry and hot, immediately causing the damage you have pictorially represented? Verslagen, you know the answer to this one -- are we really chasing a lube system improvement need? If I were dumping oil back into the head, should I drill and build a return gallery port to this particular journal area from the top because otherwise it has no pressurized oil supply? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/01/09 at 13:27:24 Oldfeller there are a total of 5 'bearing points. 1 on the front side of the gear that is only a half bearing (lower only). 2 just on the other side of the gear (which are the ones that are damaged) and 2 at the far end of the shaft. There are holes inbetween the pairs but they are on the cover side of the journals and when I blew air into one it came out the other and didn't seem to go anywhere else. Not sure if it's pressurized. http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt96/wrightw45/IMG_2024.jpg There is a 'bath area' inbetween the two pairs where the cam lobes rotate and the book tells you to fill it with oil when reassembling. http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt96/wrightw45/IMG_2016.jpg There are 'ramp' areas at the top of the lower bearing half that would probably allow oil in. This is a bad picture but you can see it. http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt96/wrightw45/IMG_2023.jpg |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 03/01/09 at 13:42:32 The 5th journal you are talking about is just a thru hole that's closed up with the cover. The 4 journals are fed oil thru ports in the cover that are between 2 journals on each side. Oil is fed to the cover on the side closest to the chain. Any oil in the bath tub is quickly thrown from it, it's just a collection point to aid in lubrication on startup. If there was any thing I could wish for, it would be for a higher volume oil pump. As soon as the journals wear, the pressure drops. So while it is evident that not enough oil is making it to the head, it could caused anywhere. clogged oil screen, missing tranny orifice, leaky bolt seals, etc. when you have little to play with, when a little leaks you have nothing. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/01/09 at 13:48:26 Roger that. Not surprised really, this engine had evidence of several leaks when I pushed it into the garage. Hopefully she won't have any when I'm done. Just going step by step and looking through all the lessons learned on here. Thanks for your time and I'll make sure to post the results on Tuesday, need to pick up some plastigage and see how close is somes to the good bearing. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 03/01/09 at 13:49:23 Gunny, last pic is interesting. see the 3 grooves? tells me something substantial was caught there for a while. According to OF's and mine study for a better oil filter, dirt of varying sizes gets thru the filter, just less as it gets bigger. The oil studies say that anything bigger then 10 microns is too big for the oil to protect against. Now it maybe that the grooves were caused by chunks of material that were ground away, so can't say the filter was at fault. But it's interesting just the same. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/01/09 at 14:02:18 especially since there is no corresponding damage to the cam shaft itself. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/03/09 at 15:12:05 Well guys pulled it apart today. The teflon tape worked great and it came apart without much trouble.( Thanks Verslagen ! ) The parts that squeezed out on the sides I was able to shave off with a pocket knife which worries me about the cure so I have it under a heat lamp right now. I'll test the strength in the morning to see how hard it is. It does appear though that JB weld shrinks a little as it hardens because I can still feel the three grooves slightly when I run my fingernail across it. That or the teflon tape pushed down into the grooves. I'm afraid that will make plastigaging it impossible on the bearing with the grooves but I'll check the one next to it and see how it came out. One question though is, will the grooves cause the oil barrier to fail again? (gonna try it anyway, can't afford a new head and cover right now.) |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Oldfeller on 03/03/09 at 19:14:15 If JB Weld shrinks a little, then the teflon tape may not be necessary to create a tiny bit of running space to make some oil clearance. Shrinkage may do that for us naturally. But the tape allowed you to KNOW you were going to be able to take it back apart and that was what you were truly worried about. Me, I'd have greased the cam up with fine white Lubriplate grease and put it together by halves to absolutely minimize my gap clearance. You can always increase the gap with some judicial fine wet-dry sandpaper and a finger tip to tune it exactly to the plastigage. Yeah, JB is kinda soft and trimmable for the first few days -- it gets tougher the longer it sits. It takes epoxy based stuff several weeks to make it to maximum toughness and it will never be as tough as aluminum or brass or even lead. Now, question is is it tough enough when fully cured to support the spinning bearing load on the journal? Practically speaking, maybe. If you have a poor oiling system that never gets oil pressure up to the head (the situation that caused the original aluminum bearing journals to go in the first place) and you haven't done anything to fix that situation then you may go there again eventually. But so far MMRanch has 8,000 miles of additional use on a JB Weld cam journal job and that my friends is more miles than some Savages get put on them in their entire engine lives. Chief Gunner has a camera and he will tell us the story GOOD or BAD whenever it develops. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 03/03/09 at 19:28:39 Not knowing how the JB weld would tolerate the grease while curing is why I'd rather use the virtually inert teflon tape. And it's pretty thin. Have we ever established how much clearance we need? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/03/09 at 19:45:53 Some aluminum powder stired into the mix may give it the strength it needs. Epoxy really isnt all that stout, its the bod to other materials thats strog, so, like the glue that is used to make particle board wouldnt work as a piece of flooring, maybe the JB weld shouldnt be asked to fill the gap alone? Is Glad Wrap thinner than teflon tape? Ohh yea, I dont kow how thinck this stuff is, but if the grooves are scary to you, maybe you couldwork the JB weld down gently till you get a flat area & reaply on top of that surface, allowing the JB to fill the grooves. Just be sure to not apply over any area that hasnt been scuffed good. How big is the gap you are filling? I really think the aluminum powder, liberally applied into the mix, would be a good idea. Aluminum or bronze maybe?Brass? Maybe a trip to a machine shiop to harvest some cuttings? Just have to hit it with Berrymans to get the oil out & a magnet to get the hard stuff.. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Oldfeller on 03/03/09 at 19:50:50 Nope. Nor do we really know how much oil clearance there is on a stock Savage engine. Until the plastigage gets put in place and tightened down, we won't really know very much about oil clearance as a subject. We just know what car engine guys know. Follow up on the teflon tape idea -- brass bearing shim stock comes in down to .0015" and .002" thicknesses. The stuff is about like aluminum foil in feel but it is tougher as the base metal is tougher. If your head bearings were eat up enough to have the clearance to include both the brass shim stock and the JB Weld behind it, then the JB Weld would be plenty "squeezy" stiff enough to enforce the .002" thick shim stock into perfect conformance to the greased up cam surface. That way you could get the assurance about being able to take it apart and you would get a durable skin to your new bearing surface AND you would get "approaching zero" oil gap clearance. Downside would be that if you did have to sand it some, it would be tough to remove any material as brass shim doesn't abrade nearly as easy as JB Weld does. Plus there isn't much there to abrade away. Upside is that once the job was done, the surface provided would be a durability upper compared to the original aluminum. ============================ If I was intentionally reaming for some clearance to do such a thing, I'd get .005" or therabouts brass shim stock so as to have some meat to sand on. And I'd ream to leave a thou or two of JB Weld paste in place behind the shim material. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/04/09 at 12:34:03 According to the Clymer manual the oil clearence should be .032 - .066mm (.0013-.0026in) Wear limit is .15mm or.0059in. I'll try to get it done tonight and post the results. Will be out of town till the end of the month. When I return I'll begin reassembly. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/04/09 at 17:44:41 Well the plastigage looked good on the undamaged bearings which at least is one good sign. The repaired side is sitting right at the wear limit but I'm going to see what i can get out of it and see what happens to the repair. What oil would you recommend I run to help with the existing condition? I'm good with cars and general mechanics but this is my first Motorcycle (don't even have a license yet). I'd like to make this last as long as possible. I figure if I'm gonna have a spill learning, might as well do it on something that's paid off. ( I hate new things anyway, tinkering is half the fun of ownership ;D ) |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Oldfeller on 03/06/09 at 15:57:00 20w50 is the only oil to use after a JB Weld repair job. I personally would use a dino version that did not cost an arm and a leg since you are going to have to change it several times pretty quick after putting the bike back together in order to remove all the crap that will come from your regasketing and repair efforts. Question? How the hell did the bearing get torn up that badly and still leave any of the journals inside the normal wear zone? It seems like they would all be shot, just not one side. Second question? Are you saying the teflon tape takes up too much room and puts you all the way up right at service limit? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Chief Gunner on 03/06/09 at 16:21:14 I honestly don't know what would have done it. I bought the bike from my neighbors kid after it had been sitting for about 6 months and just started tearing it apart. Didn't even try to start it because of the oil leaks. The damaged bearings are the closest ones to the gear so it has the most load on it. As far as the teflon and the clearance I would blame the shrinkage of the JB weld before the teflon tape. If I had it to do over again I would not torque the bolts all the way down and then wet sand with some fine paper till the journal is within specs. If I had just run the bolts down enough to align and put slight pressure it wouldn't have pushed so much of the JB out and I would have the opportunity to work it. If it rips out again because of the oil clearance I'll probably try that. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/06/09 at 22:59:16 Someone needs to put a JB Weld "Bible" together, explaing how to use it to accomplish the mechanically impossible. Looking back, you see how you could have done things differently, like not torque it. Anyone have an opinion on mixing powdered aluminum into it? Seems that would lesses the shrinkage, since there would be less JB Weld in the repair TO shrink. OF's ideas were( Gee Whoda Ever Guessed he might have a good idea??) sounding very sharp. Wouldnt it just kick butt to build up the cam supports without a machine shop & have it work better than stock? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Oldfeller on 03/07/09 at 05:24:34 Justin, JB Weld is chock full of fine metal powder, that's why it it a thick dark paste. Gunner did great -- he put us a whole lot closer to a final cheap solution. The discussion on the teflon tape was good -- it lead to the brass shim stock forced into zero conformance with JB Weld behind it pushing on it. That is the one my money is behind now -- durable bearing surface material, approaching a zero run clearance, still no machining (maybe a little sanding). Our thanks to MMRanch and Cheif Gunner for developing the trick so far. Give us another try or two and we'll have our bible on how to rig up a torn up head. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/07/09 at 09:56:37 I guess the only real answer would be to test the idea, idnetical situation, materials, load & add aluminum powder to one of the JB mixes, If I had the OOOmph Id do it in the shop. A simple strength test wouldnt be that hard to do. Even W/O a pressure gauge, a drill press could be used to apply a given amoung of pressure by using a pipe instead of my arm to pull down, hang weight on it then just compare how the other sample holds up. Which is stouter could be figured out. Whats driving my thinking is the chip board stuff.Im sure the glue that holds it together wouldnt last a minute if it was all there was in a 4X8 sheet used as a piece of floor. Not sure it would make a measurable difference, but I have that idea & if someone ever gets a chance to test it, I think that would be wway cool. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Digger on 04/28/13 at 20:46:11 Maybe this stuff would work better: BelzonaŽ 1111 (Super Metal) (http://www.belzona.com/products/1000/1111.aspx) Dunno..... |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Cavi Mike on 04/28/13 at 22:23:38 4 year old thread... |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/13 at 05:28:13 Scored hydraulic rams! I can see some in my future.. Thanksalott Digger.. What were you doing when you found that stuff? |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/13 at 10:01:19 I just sent them an E-mail. There is a distributor in Texarkana. Thats not too far,, freight wont eat me alive. Im gonna give that stuff a shot if its not just crazy money.. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Digger on 04/29/13 at 20:48:23 435C5A5D40477646764E5C501B290 wrote:
I was on my Gold Wing forum. A guy had stripped out a valve cover bolt and someone posted that he'd used this stuff on several occasions for stripped blind bolt holes. He said to fill up the hole with this stuff, let it cure, then drill and tap a new hole. I clicked on his link and looked at the web site. Sorta reminded me of this old camshaft journal thread..... |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Digger on 04/29/13 at 20:49:12 5072657A5E7A7876130 wrote:
....and? ;) |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 04/29/13 at 21:10:07 715C52525047350 wrote:
cool, learnin' new stuff for old problems that are being fixed otherwise. I wonder if you could polish the threads, coat it with mold release, pack the threads in the hole with the stuff and screw the bolt in. maybe chase it later. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/30/13 at 11:59:04 YIKES!!!! Belzona 1111 1kg. 24.3cu/in. of material $264.00 Belzona 1111 2kg. 48.6cu/in. of material $385.00 Ahmna axe 'em if thats the smallest packages they have.. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/13 at 13:16:19 26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:
almost 3x3x3" |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Digger on 04/30/13 at 18:48:41 3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 wrote:
Maybe you could work somethin' out with this guy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Belzona-1111-2-kg-metal-repair-/271199130821?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f24ba54c5 |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Cavi Mike on 05/01/13 at 05:42:22 Work what out? The guy hasn't been on this site in 2 years and this topic is 4 years old. I'm pretty sure he's moved on from this. I think it's about time you moved on as well. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/01/13 at 08:39:36 Youre one rude jackass, Mike. Shut up & go away |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 05/01/13 at 08:56:43 Anybody want get that and split it up... I'm in. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/01/13 at 10:09:20 Thats what I was hoping to hear. Im in for some of it. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Serowbot on 05/01/13 at 11:47:37 I wonder what the shelf life of that stuff is?... Quite an investment... |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Cavi Mike on 05/01/13 at 11:59:10 What exactly are you guys hoping to achieve with all of this? I know that none of you would ever hope to buy a bike that had been repaired with this backwoods crap but here you all are - passing this misinformation around in RSD like it's good idea. Are you hoping to put someone else in the position of buying a bike that's been repaired like this? Are you hoping someone else is going to have their engine seize? Yeah, I'm the jackass. No, I just make sure people who pass this stuff around like gospel feel like jackasses with the hope that they'll think twice about doing it again. Rewarding stupidity only fosters it. |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by apache snow on 05/01/13 at 12:11:14 Someones panties got in a big knot. :o |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by Serowbot on 05/01/13 at 12:11:25 Jeez, Cavi... lighten up... ;D... I don't think I'd be willing to try it on toasted cam bearing races (?), ...but,.. maybe stripped thread holes or a cracked case... It's just so pricey,... it approaches the cost of buying a used replacement part, in most cases... |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/01/13 at 12:34:24 I wouldnt BUY a bike that had been repaired that way unless I got a real good deal. However, there are more applications & I have used a good bit of JB weld over the years. Sometimes I was less than thrilled. I am currently using some to dress some gouges in a hydraulic ram & its held up for a few months okay, but, IF it craps out, I may want to go back with something that mite last longer. I dont need to be told what a fool I am for considering a PRODUCT. I MAY have some other reason for wanting it. Your immediate belief that because this was about cam journal repair that that would be the only reason for getting excited about the product & getting rude with people & acting as if theyre emotionally unable to allow a thread to die when , in YOUR oh so humble opinion it should have been allowed to do is really offensive to me. So yea, I called you a jackass. You act rudely to people I call friend, for no reason & Ill do that, every time, |
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Title: Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Post by verslagen1 on 05/01/13 at 14:01:27 1F3D2A35113537395C0 wrote:
You make it clear, responding to you is futile. However, no one's passing out misinfo but you. I can see several uses for this stuff even if cam journal repair doesn't work. Threaded holes is one, cracked or holed cases another, and worn out splines. |
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