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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine wont start, dont know what else to do /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1234906509 Message started by flyingace419 on 02/17/09 at 13:35:09 |
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Title: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/17/09 at 13:35:09 I have a 97 savage with about 9500 miles. I recently returned from afghanistan and wanted to get it running again. It sat in my garage on a stand for about 13 months. I charged the battery, drained the fuel (it had stablizer), filled with fresh fuel and drained again, changed spark plug, changed oil and oil filter, and filled with fresh fuel. It started rough, ran awhile, backfired several times with increased throttle, and overflowed fuel into the airbox. I let it run about 15 mins and then turned it off. About a week later i tried to start it up again, but it wouldnt start, it just cranked. Over the next week i tried starting it multiple times, but it never would start, just crank. I checked that the sparkplug was sending a spark, which it was. I then checked the carb to make sure fuel was getting through, drained, put on prime, ran fuel through, etc. It appeard to be working just fine. I took off the carb, took it to a buddies house and took it apart and cleaned it with B12, it was very dirty hence the overflow of fuel when it ran. Checked the vacuum hose for leaks. Tried to start, wouldnt, just cranked, could hear the air being sucked in. found the link for the clymer manual, downloaded, checked the automatic decompresion cable. Tried to start, didnt. I dont know what else to try. Does anyone have any ideas of what else i can do to try to get it running again? |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by verslagen1 on 02/17/09 at 14:18:17 1st where you at? change plug put in prime to make sure gas in carb to start charge battery, sounds like you know low voltage won't spark so won't go in to it. push start, push starting sometime will get sometime to start when other methods fail. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/17/09 at 14:28:47 Im at Oak Grove Ky, i changed the plug when i first got it started, when i checked the plug to make sure i was getting spark, it had a thin black carbon layer on it, im guessing from the multiple attempts at starting. It was getting a blue spark when i cranked it. Are you saying to change the plug again? Its a new plug i just got. Everytime i check something i usually have to tank off the tank which means draining fuel, so when i try to start it again, i do put it on prime for about 3-5 seconds. And i charge the battery between every start attempt with a charger, that way i have a fully charged battery when i attempt to start. Usually i get mad at it and try to start it so much i kill the battery anyway. I also try all the choke posittions when i try to start. Ive been trying for a little over a month now. I havent tried to push start, never done it so im not real familiar with how. How? Thank for reply. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by serowbot on 02/17/09 at 14:38:48 Check your vac line from the carb up to the petcock,(chrome spring covered, right-side of carb)...there should be no gas in it,..zero, nada.... Any gas there and your petcock is bad... |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/17/09 at 14:50:47 Checked it, no gas in it. I even blew air in it with a bicycle pump while covering the other end to check for air leaks, no leaks. I actually thought this was the problem because after i put the new plug in when i first was changing things, i forgot to put the vacuum hose back on, and of course it wouldnt start. so i put it on and it started, that was the only time it started over a month ago. after it wouldnt start again i checked the vacuum hose because its doing the same thing it did when i forgot to put it on. but it checked out ok. thanks for the reply |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/17/09 at 14:55:35 Mione wont start if I twist the throttle. I am wondering if your slide is stuck from the description of the first run. 13 months, Huhh? You sure nothing crawled up your tail pipe & built a nest? Glad you made it home. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/17/09 at 14:59:00 when i try to start it i will try with no throttle, and a little throttle, and usually go back and forth. what slide are you talking about? and i had my tail pipe covered and i checked it before i started it, nothing. thanks |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/17/09 at 15:21:40 A slide travels vertically inside the carb to open & close the airway. Its not hooed directly to the throttle cable. Vacuum pulls it up & a spring pushes it down. A bike cover is a good start, but things can get inside. It would be easy to check, just run something up in there, shine a light, check the exhaust air pulse. You heard it trying to run, think about how it sounded.If it would only sit & chug & struggle to run, you may have a dirt dobber up in there, I doubt it, but the time to check is minimal/ |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by verslagen1 on 02/17/09 at 15:34:00 to push start ( the lame gimpy fat b@$tard way) caution-these instructions are for stock bikes with all the safety's in place. 1.prep it to key start like normal 2.put in 1st, kickstand up 3.run like hell (for me that 5 to 10mph) 4.jump on (pant, pant, pant) 5.push the starter button 6.let it rev a couple of times then let out the clutch 7.it will chug, sputter, etc untill the voltage recovers and lites up the ign full charge. 8.give it some throttle and let it roll in gear until it evens out. 9.smile you've just push started the bike w/o leaving 6' of rubber on the ground. this works cause the starter gets the motor turning, and letting out the clutch automatically disengages the starter. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/17/09 at 16:13:46 You did say it didnt run well when you had it started, right? If thats tru, then I wouldnt spend my energy trying to run with it. Get a stout battery & let that starter do the work while you figure it out. If it wont start with a good battery on it, its not gonna start by pushing it. If I was simply desperate & thought that maybe it would run if turned over enough times, Id pull it behind a car. Make sure you have enough room behind it so you dont hit it & can pull & release the rope without losing control. Pushing(IMO) is for one that is known to be running, just out of battery OOMpH. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by thumperclone on 02/17/09 at 16:30:19 is the battery 1997 ? btw: your service is our freedom THANK YOU!!! |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/17/09 at 16:33:36 I had the exhaust covered with a plastic bag since it was garaged. I checked it again and there was nothing visible in it. I cranked it and it puffed, so air is coming out of the exhaust. The one time it did run, i think the problem was it was running too rich and/or the slide was stuck open, thats what led to the carb cleaning. Because it ran, but backfired and had lots of fuel spillout(overflow). Im guessing the slide is that long round thing in the middle with the big spring, well, if thats it we cleaned it (and the spring and diaphram) with the b12 when we took apart the carb, and it went up and down without getting stuck. As far as the battery, when the battery is fully charged i can crank the starter consistently for 15+ min before the power gets drained (headlight starts to dim also). Ill just recharge it and try again, so i believe the battery is actually good, i dont get a red light withthe charger. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by serowbot on 02/17/09 at 16:37:27 Try this,...crank the engine, and feel for vacuum on the carb side of that vac line.... Sometimes when an engine has been sitting, or has been having problems starting...too much unspent gas flows down the cylinder and creates a "gas wash".... This removes the fine coating of oil on the cylinder walls that creates compression... Squirting about a teaspoon of oil down the sparkplug hole will allow the walls to be recoated and compression will return... |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by thumperclone on 02/17/09 at 16:42:07 battery chargers wont tell you if there is a bad cell..but if you can crank for 15 mins dont think its the batt. is the gap on the plug correct? right plug ? hows the outer covering of the plug wire? when you pull the plug is just a little sooty/wet ? hows the air cleaner? any gas in the air box?? basics on any gas engine: compression fuel spark such a low mileage enginge got to be sumthin simple.. keep us posted good luck!! |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Max_Morley on 02/17/09 at 20:05:19 A carbon fouled plug that gets fuel on it will not jump the gap in the cylinder under pressure, rather the coil voltage goes back down the wet carbon path to ground. Pretty hard to clean the plug these days as I haven't seen a plug blaster for years. I use a oxy/acet jewelers rig my dad had with the smallest tip and an oxidizing flame, it eats up the carbon as extra fuel, but just a little to much heat or not moving fast enough and the porcelain cracks and it is trash. New ones are your best bet, don't have to be fancy until you get it all worked out. You might want to do the head cover door mod or leave it off until you solve all the problems. Max |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Savage Eddie on 02/17/09 at 20:30:30 funny you mention a plug blaster Max, i still have mine and used it today to get a flooded 2002 VW Passat running. i agree with removing the spark plug and oiling the cylinder. if you cant clean the spark plug then replace it again. I had a bunch of similar problems with mine early last year and removed the carb to clean it. just when you think you did a good job it still doesn't run right. keep in mind the jets have a very small opening and goo up easily as i found out the hard way. good luck! |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Max_Morley on 02/17/09 at 20:51:36 Most dealers stopped using them in the early 70's after the factories bought some engines on warranty. Vehicle would come in with a misfire and oil fouled plug early on. Techs didn't get paid much to R&R a plug and clean under warranty flat rate so often they didn't get the blasting material out from the oil down along the center porcelain. Needless to say, when it fired up the stuff did get blasted out and ended up down on the rings and now they had a real oil user/burner. I was twisting wrenches summers at the time and they starting paying us to R&R the plug with a new one and the old one was kept for field service rep to inspect and destroy in their monthly visit. I have been watching for one at a garage sales and auctions since I moved here to eastern WA and not seen one yet. Maybe someday. Max |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by T Mack 1 on 02/18/09 at 03:17:17 Another trouble shooting hint. I find that when trying to figure out a non-starting engine, using a trolling motor battery (from a boat) works great. It has a ton of reserve to play with. And, it's designed to be drained, recharged, drained , recharged etc etc. It also saves the regular battery from being abused. You just have to find a friend that is willing to lend on eto you...... |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by ero4444 on 02/18/09 at 09:37:15 I agree that this could be a low battery. You can fairly easily check battery resting condition AND starting condition with any cheapo voltmeter. If the lead-acid battery resting condition is 12.05vdc or less then the battery is only 25% alive - or less. Resting battery at 100% should 12.6vdc. I assume you have refilled water levels as necessary but 13 months standing time is probably enough to sulfate a old battery to death. Likewise, while discharging battery can not sag much voltage before the Savage has significant starting and running problems. There is a good description of lead acid battery voltage curves here http://www.arttec.net/Solar_Mower/4_Electrical/Battery%20Charging.pdf Also when push starting, sometime 2nd gear works better than first (to spin faster), and start on a hill, or get someone to push. Veteran dying-battery rider here - the 25%-alive-battery can crank the motor, sounds fine but it WON'T start without help. Get a good battery... Post when you fix it. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by verslagen1 on 02/18/09 at 09:42:03 2nd is easier to start, but engine turns slower than 1st. My tach says 300 rpm when using the starter, so a slower rpm is ok. but, I find I sometimes need to roll it a bit in gear to get over any sputtering. Whereas in 2nd, you might not want to do that because it will lurch. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/19/09 at 15:34:21 Felt vacuum on carb side Battery =13.2V put in 1 tsp oil in cylinder, rotated engine spark plug gap=correct spark plug little sooty/not wet air filter is brand new still wont start something is happening in the cylinder cause the plug is black but it sounds like there is no fire happening (only air coming out of exhaust) Im going to borrow a compression guage and check the compression even though i believe its good cause i can feel it when i crank the engine with the plug removed, and probably clean the carb again. I know fuel and air is getting in the carb, just not sure if its getting further even though it did run once. Thats what i dont get, it ran, and then i didnt touch it, and it wont run again. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/19/09 at 15:48:18 I'd pull the tube between carb & air filter & shoot some WD 40 in, with the fuel shut off. The propane will fire it & prove that the spark is working or not.Ive gotten cars started that way. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by T Mack 1 on 02/20/09 at 06:40:44 Carbon fouled plug will not fire well enough to start the bike. And , too many chemicals used to clean can actually burn and leave a film on the sparkplug causing weak spark too. My suggestion.... spend the 2-3 bucks and yet anohter new plug. If it gets wet or carbon fouls then you know it is too much fuel getting in . Also, on the new plug, use a propane torch to dry any wet gas off. A cigarette lighter may leave carbon. If the plug gets wet, crank the motor over without the plug in to dry out the cyclinder. Do not use steel wool on the plug to clean carbon because the ceramic will get coated with steel and give poor spark too. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/20/09 at 20:28:30 i can crank the starter consistently for 15+ min before Youll shoot yer eye out kid AND burn up your starter motor |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/21/09 at 11:26:03 tried wd40..no change put in brand new spark plug...still wont start guess ill clean the carb again |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by serowbot on 02/21/09 at 12:27:16 Get yourself an .009" or .011" guitar string, and run it back and forth through all the carb passages and jets.... sometimes that old gas hardens up to much for a liquid cleaner to dissolve... |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by T Mack 1 on 02/21/09 at 15:00:35 6963766661686E6C6A3B3E360F0 wrote:
Is plug wet??? |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/21/09 at 15:37:08 old plug was always dry when i tried the wd40 the oldplug was wet after i put in the new plug and did several start attempts the new plug is.. still brand new and dry does that mean no fuel is getting from the carb into the cylinder? |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Digger on 02/21/09 at 18:24:36 392F38253D28253E4A0 wrote:
I like the guitar string idea, but only for cleaning small carb passages. As for as the jets, I'd be nervous about cleaning them with as steel wire. A brass wire or a copper one would be better for that, I think. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Digger on 02/21/09 at 18:29:49 Ace, Does anyone uses starting fluid anymore? If the engine would not start with starting fluid, I would begin to suspect a few things: 1. Ignition system: Is the spark strong enough in a pressurized combustion chamber to ignite combustion? 2. Ignition timing: Could the ignition timing be off? I really don't know how this could happen, nor do I know how to test it on a non-running engine. 3. Valve timing: When you had the engine running for a short while, perhaps one of the backfires caused the cam chain to jump a tooth. It might be worth a look. Good luck! |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Polar_Pilot on 02/21/09 at 19:27:23 What were the results of the compression test - This problem is bizarre - I am assuming that you have checked your clutch switch and kick stand switch - If they are not working properly - you can crank until the cows come home and that engine is not going to start |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by verslagen1 on 02/21/09 at 21:39:50 417E7D70634E41787D7E65110 wrote:
Either one of those not working and it won't crank even if the cows never come home. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by SV og LS on 02/21/09 at 22:11:41 With a new plug, is there a spark? |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by newviennajj on 02/22/09 at 07:22:22 im having the same problem.what is a kickstand switch?i always try to start with the stand up ? is that wrong.also can anyone tell me the very best battery to buy. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by flyingace419 on 02/22/09 at 16:09:33 My buddy of mine with the compression guage came over, compression 160. He sprayed starting fluid (ether) in the airbox, and it ran on the starting fluid but not regular gas. so the gas was getting in the carb, just not into the engine. So i proceded with another carb clean, when i cleaned it the first time i just took off the float bowl and the diaphram on the top. I didnt really fell comfortable doing anymore since this was taking apart a carb for my first time. this time i took off everything, going by the manual. when i got to the main jet (i thought it was just a screw) i tried spraying carb cleaner through, but nothing went through. so i used a small sewing needle and poked it in, and out came a bunch of black crap. O Wow, theres supposed to be a hole there! O, so thats where the fuel goes through to get to the carb and engine. Problem found and fixed. Started right up and ran like a champ. Thanks for the advice. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Yonuh Adisi on 02/22/09 at 16:14:34 Very cool, glad you got it sorted out. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by serowbot on 02/22/09 at 16:47:38 Yeah!!!!!...... ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by Dj12midnit on 02/22/09 at 17:10:14 And a good time was had by all. |
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Title: Re: Engine wont start, dont know what else to do Post by T Mack 1 on 02/23/09 at 10:09:11 Yea!!!! Might want to run some kind of fuel treatment through to get the rest of the crud out. Note: there is a screen on the inlet to the carb at the needle valve. If you get high speed performance issues , you may want to check that. |
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