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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low speeds /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1232661088 Message started by Oldfeller on 01/22/09 at 13:51:28 |
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Title: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low speeds Post by Oldfeller on 01/22/09 at 13:51:28 The source thread for this one was the second of a series of typical list oil wars -- this one was a pretty good one as it was enthusiastic but polite and unusually factually based (good research done by most everyone) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1231439524 ============================== What is the Savage's oil pressure at 1,000 rpm idle speed (fully warmed up) and what is it at the low speeds you would achieve in say a parking lot. There is a method to this odd question's madness. When you set up a bypass oil filter system (remote filter) you need to put anti-backflow check valves in place to keep the "storage oil" that sits inside the relatively large bypass filter housing oil from flooding back into your sump while the bike is sitting on the sidestand. Since these filters can hold as much oil as our sump does, you understand the need to keep it all out of the sump. Since you gotta have them little check valves on both "to" and "from" lines, you have the opportunity to do a little serendipity magic. The little cheap check valves that you would use for this sort of work are built to a fixed opening or "crack open" pressure setting. These crack open pressures can range from a fraction of a psi up to about 12 psi (generally in 2 psi increments). I want to set the crack open pressure slightly up over the fully hot 1,000 rpm idle oil pressure setting so that at a stop light ALL of the oil goes through the standard passages up to the plain head bearings unreduced and unimpeded by the bypass filter system. This is a good thing ... So, I will get no negative pressure affects on the internal oil system at all until the motor rpm gets high enough to exceed the crack open pressure, enough to supply both the existing oil pressure needs and have enough pressure left over to trickle oil through the sub micron bypass and then dump it --- into the head pool bucket of all places! Then I slightly deepen the head pool bucket by raising a little epoxy lip on the exit side that intentionally directs the slightly higher oil pool to empty --- on the cam chain as it goes down the front side to the bottom sprocket (force lubing both the chain and the wear stressed front chain guide). So, you guys with them oil pressure gauges do tell, what is the Savage's oil pressure at 1,000 rpm idle speed (fully warmed up) and what is it at the low speeds you would achieve in say a parking lot. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by thumperclone on 01/22/09 at 14:36:17 sm spec as follows: 7.1 -10.7 psi @ 3000 rpm & 140F hope this helps |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/22/09 at 15:02:08 No, not really. Search turns up low figures of 2-4 psi for thin 10w40 dino oil on a hot day and 5-7 for 20w50 dino oil on a hot day with a hot engine at idle speed. Lotsa data span here, too much not to question it a bit. Very cold engines always seem to give high (50 psi) pressures no matter what, so that might be a reflection of a sludgy dino product not flowing well when cold. Most of this pressure info is VERY OLD and the points being discussed back then might have flavored the topic a bit. Way back then we were just learning we HAD to run a 1,000 rpm idle or pay the head bearing piper for too low oil an pressure due to a hot slow idle. ============ Looking for somebody with a current accurate oil pressure gauge to give me some current real numbers. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by T Mack 1 on 01/22/09 at 18:46:13 Oldfeller, Those are the numbers I get. The 50 psig is why I up-graded to a 60 PSI gauge. I had a 30 PSI gauge to start with. It should be noted, when I took the "Experienced Rider" safety course in 80 deg F weather, the 20W50 got down to 2-4 psig at idle, but we were idling alot and then quick accel's and sudden stops so the bike didn't get much air past the fins. Not a normal situations I would say. Can you get a 5 psi valve? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by thumperclone on 01/22/09 at 20:00:53 if you mount the filter low enuff and pointed down while on side stand would you still need a check valve? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/23/09 at 01:26:59 There is no low enough on the bike to be lower than the sump. Tough to get lower than the head on a frame mount position. Safer and smarter to have check valves on each side in any case. I know you can get a six (6) psi crack pressure check valve. Put it on the exit from the oil pump channel then put a fraction psi check valve on the return side of the bypass filter going to the head. Bike hits six psi, oil flow to bypass filter starts -- not much flow used as bypass filter is pretty restrictive --- any pressure through filter is enough to actuate valve heading to the head. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/23/09 at 03:08:51 T-Mack, what sort of pressures do you see when riding? Our riding RPMs are around 3,000-4,000 rpm so oil pump volume output will be at whatever maximum ounces per minute that the pump generates and the pressure will be being vented by whatever internal overpressure valve the Savage uses. Important to have the check valve to the large bypass filter be a lower crack pressure than the Savage's internal dump valve pressure or it won't be functional at all. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by T Mack 1 on 01/23/09 at 17:43:33 7C5F5755565F5F5641330 wrote:
Hmmmmm.... can you see me scratching my head from there? I'm trying to remember...... but... some questions.... Cold engine, warm engine, summer, winter, city riding, highway riding, when I had 10W-40 or with the 20W-50 Mobil 1 Vtwin ..... can you see that there are some variables that may take some thinking on your part. I must say that I don't look at the oil pressure very often. I mainly look at the tach. I'm about 90% sure that on a summer day in the 80's it runs in the 12 to 18 psig range crusing 55-60 mph, with the Mobil One in it. As for the "the Savage's internal dump valve pressure " , I'm not so sure there is one. Only a filter bypass in the filter for clogs. And the little restrictor by the starter so that the oil goes up to the head instead of the path of least resistance to the tranny. I had the pump apart and it's super simple. Could be why the pressure varies so much from cold to warm.... |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by EssForty on 01/24/09 at 06:11:00 Just some more data to back up T Macks' observations. My oil pressure gage, using Mobil 1 V-Twiin 20-50w, reads around 10-14PSIG at speeds in the 45-65 range. If I push the revs up above 4500 I might see readings as high as 15-18PSIG. Never seen anything over 20 except at startup on a cold day. All warmed up at 1100 rpm idle, the gage shows about 2 psi, as the picture below shows. The oil gage is the one on the lower left. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2NU0p82vl5Y/SMv_4QoZztI/AAAAAAAAACo/uMWyhlDd8rc/s320/P9130035.jpg |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/24/09 at 15:32:53 In-feed line check valve crack pressure around 6-7 psi would meet all the requirements then. Safely higher than the idle psi so all the oil at idle goes up the internal plumbing to the head bearings -- low enough that the bypass system is "on" if the bike is rolling at any significant speed. Return line to the head could use a .5 psi check valve simply to keep the oil from pooling in the sump. You answered my last concern -- which filter media to use. If all I have to work with is 10-14 psi max I had better stick with Bounty paper towel material instead of the stiffer brown hand dispenser paper. Bounty is more porous than the stiff brown paper, but is still plenty tough enough to keep from losing chunks of paper a al Gort. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/09 at 18:07:14 5271797B787171786F1D0 wrote:
Once it goes thru that check valve the pressure will be lower. Hense will you have enough pressure to run the filter if the pressure is 30 -6 psi? or 18 - 6psi? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Charon on 01/25/09 at 05:37:49 I think I understand what you are trying to accomplish - better oil filtration. But I am curious to know how you are planning to quantify your results. My guess would be that the overall objective is to increase engine life, but I cannot see how you would measure that unless you have engine-life data from other non-modified machines. Increasing oil life might be another objective, but unless you have some way to test the oil you may have difficulty verifying the results. And the oil tests probably cost more than simply changing the oil and filter in the first place. Don't get me wrong - I think it is an interesting experiment. I just wonder how you'll know whether it worked. As an aside, you mentioned that your new bypass filter will hold about as much oil as is already in the system. That means you will double the oil quantity, which means you will double the mileage (or time) required for oil viscosity to drop or for contaminants to build, even if the new filter were omitted from the housing. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/25/09 at 08:09:05 Charon is asking me if my proposed wimsy is actually cheating a bit. Yep, in several ways. (I likes to cheat a bit, I do) The extra quart or more of oil does increase mileage capacity of the oil load because I will be filtering half again to twice as much oil as originally equipped on a Savage. Next, I will be putting the tank horizontally on the sissy bar right over the brake light. This appeals to me as being "out of the way" and not cluttering up the lines of the motor part of the bike. Plus it will look interesting sitting back there and everyone coming up behind me will wonder what the heck it is. Heck, I may put me a name brand nitrous bottle sticker on it just for the giggles of it. Next, the long quarter inch copper lines running to it and back will act as as an oil cooler. Cooled, cleaned oil being dumped back in the head will help cool that hot zone in a somewhat minor manner. Cam bearings, cam lobes and tappet flats will see some minor advantage from a steady bath of much cooler very clean oil. Damming up the head pool such that it has an intentional extended oil exit chute to dump the running oil on the cam chain at the front guide junction can only help those two pieces to live longer. Remember, I'm copying at 1/2 scale a bypass oil filter that is commonly used on 30 quart oil capacity 16 wheelers that run it for 10,000 miles between Bounty filter material changes. Let's ASSUME that I could filter 15 quarts of oil for a similar distance (using 1/2 scale factor -- just for discussions sake -- I know you won't really agree to assume anything, but that's OK) so factor in the idea we are only dealing with 3-4 quarts of oil and a 650 cc motor cycle engine instead of a 14,000 cc diesel engine pumping 30 quarts of oil we might assume to get some sort of 15x (less trash produced) life mulitiplier might theoretically apply to some sort of degree. Too many Blackstone oil analysis done by too many truckers and BOBSTHEOILGUY combatants say the Bounty oil filter material works to get fine trash out of oil. Mind you, I have already removed all the ferrous materials with the supermagnet sitting on the main filter, all we are feeding this secondary bypass filter is the fine non-ferrous trash. And yes, you will lose pressure going through the check valves and all that long tubing. I have an drain tap on the drum that I will use to vent air out of the system that can also be used to do a "incoming" volume check on the oil reaching the system back at the sissy bar. Unhooking the head piping can do a final "output" delivery check as well. As long as the volume is appreciable as far as lubing the cam chain goes then the system "works well enough". Any light drool through the system would process the total system's 3-4 quarts of oil fairly quickly. And the good news is that if it plugs itself up totally, why then I'm back to just using the stock Suzuki lubrication system, jest like da rest of youse guys. ;D And if I only change the oil once a year when I change the main oil filter element (still the weakest part of the overall system) then I can see if there is any difference in the non-ferrous trash build up on the filter element. Also, if cam chain wear out is eventually documented enough to create an averaged value then I could see if I get an noticable increase in cam chain life that could maybe might be a possible indicator of increased motor wear life. Like the orange cat sez, "You gotta keep things in the proper kitty perspective" http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/catfilter.JPG |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/25/09 at 09:32:36 personally I think mounting the filter lower than the fluid level would be best and omitting the check valves. The place where I have a carbon canister would be ideal. Run a skinny enough line to the head so as not to drop or raise the oil level when running and there you go. I don't think you're going to have much flow at 30 psi, and none at idle. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Charon on 01/25/09 at 10:07:36 Perhaps I was unclear in my question. Granting that the filter works as planned, and gets out more and finer particles, how are you going to decide whether it actually makes a difference in engine life? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/25/09 at 10:34:05 Charon, Since we don't have any intentional system doing any intentional oiling of that "weak link" cam chain right now I can't see how it can help but help some. And no, I won't live long enough to "prove" any sort of overall motor life increase in a statistically meaningful fashion, so I am going to have to follow the orange cat's advice on that one. Verslagen, it sounds like you might be considering getting a bit whimsical yourself. You want any details on the modifications to the stock Harbor Freight air filter system that had to be done to turn it into a bypass oil filter? Do you absolutely NEED the check valves -- no. Ed L runs an oil cooler and he lets the extra oil run back into the sump. At start up he is splashing some extra oil, then the oil pump fills up his cooler and it is out of the sump until he cuts it off again. I think I understand Ed to say he meters the fill on his oil system by checking it to see it is "in the sight glass" while it is idling sitting straight upright after warm up. I do know from watching his bike do it that Savages will exit any accidentally grossly overfilled oil out the air box through the bypass vapor system, so any total system overfill isn't going to hang around too long anyway. And yeah, it is very noticable while this is going on with the white smoke and all. Me, I don't like the idea of potentially dirty trash laden backflow oil seeping back out of the dirtyest part of the front side of the bypass filter going back down the lines to contaminate the main pressurized oil passage while the bike is sitting on the sidestand. This backflow could get pumped up to the head bearings when you started back up. That's just me though. I really wouldn't worry about the clean side of the bypass filter all that much, so yeah you could do without the clean side check valve as you are pumping uphill on that side to the top of the head anyway with your configuration. Got enough room for a 12"x4" total envelope down where that carbon canister used to sit? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by T Mack 1 on 01/25/09 at 18:50:23 Oldfeller, Let me see if I have this right. You are going to send some oil thru the Auxilary filter and on to the cam chain. Is that the idea??? t. m. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/25/09 at 19:20:02 Yep, got to dump it somewhere -- might as well be somewhere that it will do some good. Actually, I will dump it in the head pool area and rig a raised pool lip and a aimed channel "exit" for the pool that will lube both the cam chain and where it goes down the front guide surface. Deeper pool means more splashing of cam lobes into the pool and more oil carried up and over the tappet faces as well. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by thumperclone on 01/25/09 at 19:40:19 10333B393A33333A2D5F0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/25/09 at 20:46:10 4A6961636069696077050 wrote:
in the area of the canister, maybe 8"x4"sq another option would be between the plates of someones forward controls. Yogurt has been putting thoughts into my head about a cheap oil cooler for some time. Now I did find the adapters cheap, but shipping has doubled the cost and Yogurt is frowning at me (I think) Any body want to do a group buy on adapters? But as I mentioned before, an at home dialysis machine for thumper is a thought. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/25/09 at 23:07:44 came across this... http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm And this... http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/products_fuel_filters.php which brings to mind our bio diesel enthusiast. What do you know about filtering oil? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by T Mack 1 on 01/26/09 at 03:11:54 4A6961636069696077050 wrote:
Hmmmmm... maybe I'm a Nervous Nellie. I would be concerned about splitting the oil volume (not pressure) away from the tranny & cam journal. You will need to make sure the "path of least resistance" is still the stock oil passages. I'm not sure how you would do that. Maybe real small oil lines and more "head" to lift against? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/26/09 at 03:27:50 Anybody remember roughly the diameter of the tranny restrictor hole that enforces the sending of oil up to the head? A drilled restrictor could be added to the exit path from the test port. I have put the filter together now and it does not have a great deal of restriction when new when you put your mouth on the entrance and blow through the paper towel media. That would change of course as it "got all dirty" but still, a similar restriction hole to what is used to limit the transmission oil passage would be wise on the output leg, just to balance out the Force. Anybody remember roughly the diameter of the tranny restrictor hole that enforces the sending of oil up to the head? ================= Thumperclone, I plan to mount the thing way up high, about even with the gas tank. Even the return line to the head cover will be "lower" than the mass of oil sitting in the tank. Unless I want to see some back flow of filthy trash laden oil from the dirty side of the filter down the infeed tank line into the test port and the main distribution tunnel in the engine while resting on the kickstand I need the check valve on the input side. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by bill67 on 01/26/09 at 05:47:41 How many more miles do you thing an s40 will go with a differenced oil filter vs stock filter? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/26/09 at 07:28:28 10333B393A33333A2D5F0 wrote:
As I was drifting off to sleep, dreaming of heart rate monitors... air pumps... and dialysis machines... and thumper all hooked up... 6 million dollar man theme song playing in the background... I was thinking the same thing. A little orifice to controll the flow rate, should be a little smaller than the tranny hole. Remember? Are you implying someone would measure it? Willingly? But I do have one on the bench at the moment. And I beleave a have a set of tiny @$$ed drills that I can measure with. Once I get home I'll take a gander. ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/26/09 at 15:04:54 Spent some time at work figuring. Dangerous, that figuring stuff. Oil pump is a constant volume pump, one rev moves X amount of oil -- I tested the theory using known data discussed up-thread and indeed a constant of between .0035 and .0037 thingamabobs per rev seems to act like a constant volume pump should act. (very technical, them thingamabobs -- we don't know exactly how big they really are but they do calculate like a constant between 1,000 rpm and 3,500 rpm -- give or take .0002 thingamabobs for some measurement uncertainty) =================== So, we are saying that lubrication to the head is "minimal" at 1,000 rpm and Suzuki splits it between tranny and head with a metered selected orifice with the lesser amount going to the tranny (Verslagen will get the diameter number for us) with all remaining volume going to the head bearings. This pressure at 1,000 rpm is 2-4 psi (average is 3 psi). If I go to 9 psi as the crack pressure on the check valve I would only get there when my RPMs are up to around 3000 rpm. So volume of oil available at 3,000 rpm should be at least 3 times what it is at 1,000 rpm. So, if I have twice the volume at the same 2-4 psi pressure, I can supply 2 tranny orifice holes and the head with similar flows of oil to what Suzuki gives the bike stock at 1,000 rpm. Nice theory, right? So at 3,000 rpm I would have 3 times the volume moving along at more than 3 times the original psi with head, tranny and extra passage getting a good bit more than it does at 1,000 rpm idle speeds. Now why do I think that at 9 psi the 1/4" check valve is going to have a case of the flutters because whenever it opens initially the pressure in the distribution tunnel is going to drop some, shutting down the valve temporarily. Eventually it would even out somewhat with a 9 psi volume going on to tranny and the head bearing clearances being fed at 9 psi at all times with a remainder of the volume going out to the bypass filter in little 9 psi down to zero mini pulses. ================ Recap of thoughts ============ Stock Engine The stock unmodified engine sees pressure as a function of the tranny hole and the head bearing clearances being fed at whatever max pressure that particular engine gets out of that particular oil viscosity with the output volume being constant. Volume is constant at a given max rpm, pressure shown on a pressure gage goes up or down with temperature & oil viscosity. And yep, this is what really happens. Add just an extra hole to a stock engine and that pressure figure is going to drop a good bit as you are splitting the the volume out 3 ways. With 9 psi Check Valve and a third hole Add a pressure sensitive check valve and the head and tranny get whatever pressure it is set at and the remainder of volume stutters on out to the bypass filter in little 9 psi down to zero psi mini pulses. You will never really exceed that check valve set pressure as it auto regulates out the available volume to the third pathway using the set pressure as a constant and the stutter volume out the third leg as the moving variable. If you ever did go over 9 psi it would indicate the third leg orifice was finally satisfied at a pressure greater than 9 psi. I don't think it would really ever happen if the orifice was same size as the tranny orifice. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/26/09 at 16:56:56 Four cross drilled holes bigger then .049 smaller than .069. see clymer page 130 |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/27/09 at 00:37:36 You mean figure 243 on page 130, little brass thing that looks like a pilot jet? WTF? (You get to look at it again on page 137 figure 271) Ain't that a little cutie-pie, a little oil controlling pilot jet. Is the end of it blind or does it have a through hole? If so how big is the through hole? 4 side holes x .049" = .196" summed diameter in side passages but I bet the sum of the side holes is bigger than the thru hole (if one exists). I betcha you have to do it as a summed area comparison instead of a simple diameter ... jet tricks, I'll be darned. Pilot jet flow tricks to control oil flow, who woulda thought that .... What did they do, just plug in different jets until they found one yielded the restriction characteristics that they wanted? |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/27/09 at 20:57:12 75565E5C5F56565F483A0 wrote:
Probably. 4 side holes x .049" not = .196" area of a circle = pi * r^2 = 3.14 * .025^2 = .001963 4 * .001963 = .00785 equivalent diameter = sq root of .00785 = .0886" That jet is in there tight or I'd pull it out. I think there's a smaller port on the backside and these just keep out brown trout. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/27/09 at 21:36:23 I've been thinking of plugging in a pump and filter once you get home. I was looking for a system and seeing the truck guys do something similar. I bowsed the internet, finding home oil change kits that syphon the oil out of the filler tube but nothing like the truck guys transfer pump and filter. And of course we have no filler tube into the sump. So the options are add a syphon tube or a quick connect to the drain plug. Next problem, how to make sure the right amount of oil is in the case when you are done. Hmmm, if the syphon tube went down only to the oil level, then if it were over filled you could suck it back out. filtering will be done by OF's hyper filter. How to pump... could get a vw gear pump and fit it to a electric motor... or could a air compressor (one of them little 12v tire inflators) do the job? yeah yeah dem little chits aren't made to do that, may explode. But I got a couple laying around that don't work anymore. I'm gonna have to go by the inventors candy store this weekend. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/27/09 at 21:49:45 "Curiouser and Curiouser" said Alice to the Cat. We are challenged in that we MUST maintain flow and pressure to the head cam journal bearings -- and we dare not violate these precepts or we can join the many who are in search of the rare spare head with virgin undamaged head journal bearings. Pressure -- don't tap any flow unless pressure is up to 9-10 psi so you have some oil volume to steal from (the designed crack pressure inherent to the check valve does this) Flow -- use only a small 10 psi flow through a 3/32 drilled orifice passage to balance the alternate flow amount. Conclusion: the amount of bypass oil going through a 3/32 drilled orifice and on up through a massive 1/8" tubing to the bypass filter is sooooo tiny it has to fall under the heading of "why bother?" Stealing bypass oil from the oil pump simply isn't worth the risk -- there is not enough flow and pressure there to steal from safely. ================= There is no excess pressure or volume being vented in the Savage oil system by any form of bypass valve. It is all going to the head or the transmission. This scarce resource is intentionally metered by Suzuki engineers using a form of tuned pilot jet technology to send all extra pressure and volume to the head. ================= Folks running them cute little oil coolers off the oil gallery on a Savage are living in a world of increased risk. Our bikes can kill the cam journal bearings naturally without bleeding off the existing oil pressure and volume to go run an oil cooler. Running temperature and pressure gages is fine -- no oil really moves around when you run a pressure gage. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/27/09 at 22:19:19 0320282A292020293E4C0 wrote:
and the door mouse said "keep your head" Those cute little coolers running from one oil port to another don't syphon off any volume or pressure. They mearly give oil an alternate cooler path in which to flow. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/28/09 at 11:49:21 some interesting stuff http://www.synlube.com/oilfilters.htm |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/28/09 at 15:02:48 <Those cute little coolers running from one oil port to another don't syphon off any volume or pressure. They mearly give oil an alternate cooler path in which to flow.> Come again? Any real push force to make the oil flow would have to come from the oil gallery tunnel (takes volume and pressure from the tranny and head) and the return flow from the cooler goes where again? If you say the bottom port into the oil tunnel, then I would say that not much other than a smidgen of momentum and some hot oil convection from cooling is moving the oil around at all, whatever movement is taking place. And yes, that "no powered flow" system would not steal anything from the oil tunnel and whatever pressure caused whatever to move however much it did move would not be subtractive from the head and tranny. ================= Synlube -- wonder what them little super special colloidal solid lubricant rollie balls would do inside our wet clutch. Slippy slippy cocobop, slip until you drop .... |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/28/09 at 16:02:55 There are hydraulic losses any time a fluid is pumped thru anything.Every turn & every inch of plumbing requires power to drive the fluid. If a guy took a piece of 1/2 ID PVC pipe & hooked it to a pump that runs @ 2 GPM & the pipe was dead level & 1 mile long, how long till the water comes out the end? It never makes it, because the pipe ruptures, providing our theoretical pump pushes 2 GPM, regardless of the pressure it encounters. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 01/28/09 at 16:44:59 JOG your analogy doesn't apply http://verslagen.savageriders.com/images/Oil flow.jpg The pink arrows would be the oil cooler path. The little black arrows between the pink highlighted oil route is the current path. Oil pressure to the cooler is provided by sudden change in direction the normal path makes. OF, not proposing to use super oil but super filter. plus the readin' was interesting. External oil filter rigs are easy to come by. (think I got one hidden somewhere) These filters are documented to filter to 10 microns vs. an unknown value for a OF hyper filter. Another possibility is the bio-diesel folks are using household water filters. And those are available to 2 microns. My intentions are still to hyper filter the oil and maintain the oil level using an external machine. All she needs is a heart plug to tap into the sump while parked. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 01/29/09 at 03:22:38 Well, I enjoyed playing with it, building up the filter that is. Playing with understanding the system was fun too. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF00014.JPG I borrowed a large face 0-60 psi gage from work so I could do a temporary rig up to monitor my own bike's pressure levels. I <may> hook up the remote tank rigging using 1/8" tubing all the way back to the head then hook up the gage below and monitor the pressure as reduced by the entire system. With all the tubing and filter resistance it should be greatly reduced compared to measuring it at the engine tap points. Why measure it at the end where it is greatly reduced? One, it is totally real to the attached filter system pieces. Second, it is cooled down by all the tiny 1/8" copper tubing just about to air ambient temperature. Third, because pressure is reduced and temperature is low, I can splice in a tiny, easy to trip (fine increment adjustment) plastic check valve to clip a tiny amount of oil volume at an exactly known pressure so I won't feel like I am going to kill my engine. Measuring that 1/8" check valve passed volume with a cup measure, I can precisely state the volume stolen from the oil system and how long it would take to cycle my oil sump through the filter one time. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Charon on 01/29/09 at 06:20:43 Seems to me you have a good idea of what you are doing. But I had a couple more thoughts. There is enough vibration on the Savage that you might have problems with the copper lines cracking or breaking. I think I would prefer to use a more flexible line, or at least plumb in some stress relieving loops. You might want to insulate the line from the engine to the filter, or else the oil might cool enough to reduce the filter flow due to higher viscosity. I would consider insulating the filter, too, and then putting an oil cooler into the return line. The oil return line should have essentially no pressure because you are just dumping it back into the engine through an open line. The only pressure would come from line friction (ignoring elevation differences). |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 02/01/09 at 16:19:55 Ah, gentle reader ..... This discussion went off line for a while until Versagen discovered the relatively inexpensive ($25) fuel oil filter systems with the fairly cheap ($3) replacement filter elements. The discussion then hotted back up and got down and dirty practical as two experimental systems began to take form .... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1233533908 |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, and at low speed Post by verslagen1 on 02/01/09 at 18:00:33 What I was searching for was a verified 10 micron filter. Dems is big words over on the HD forum. And it took me to a couple of high priced m/c filter mfg's who stated that they made one to fit the Savage :o, well in their write up they said they were spin on canisters, aw chit. Letter written to both the dumb @$$es to straighten them out. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll send me one to test ;D Any way here's the $24 filter assembly I found. http://www.accentshopping.com/Image.aspx?IMG_ID=8046&IMG_Height=250&IMG_Width=250 Filter elements come by the case. Now my hat's off to OF and his pal yogurt for coming up with the idea. And I'm a minimalist by heart so when OF hangs his filter off the furthest part of the bike he can go :o I naturally want to hang it directly off the port, so low that you don't have to worry about drain back. And metering done by a single washer with the appropriate sized hole for a trickle at freeway speeds, nearly nothing around town. Sold to the 4 wheeled crowd as a bypass filter. Another filter I found was from the biodiesel people. Dem french fry people use whole house sediment filters. Not something I want to put hot oil thru. But if you hang it off the back... OF, you might look at those filter elements if you get tired of rollin' your own. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by Oldfeller on 02/01/09 at 18:14:20 I look at it lustfully -- like I said, if I hadn't already started on the path I am already partially down I would definitely be using your system. It is a superior starting point in every aspect. Go there, gentle reader follow Verslagen on the choice of filters -- do not go where I went as if I had it to do over again I'd get Verslagen's fiter as my starting point too. ============ Same token -- both Verslagen and i have to beat the same vibration and heat problems running the plumbing. Gander at the differences in thoughts and methods accordingly. He will swing minimal, smaller and close up, I will go longer further and bigger. We both get there, but the differences are interesting .... (especially when you hit the edge of a ditch up in the mountains on that there infamous mountain trip) ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 02/01/09 at 23:19:22 The wvo people use these... http://i5.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/1c/10/e3_2.JPG That's a small block chev oil pump. capable of 40 psi. hooked up to an electric motor. http://verslagen.savageriders.com/images/oilpump1.jpg The second bolt hole from the bottom on the right indicates the oil level. My thought is to route a drain and fill line from either the oil fill port or drill and tap the case. Drain line has to go to the bottom, but the fill line just has to go to the nominal oil level. OK, the senario goes like this, you come back from a ride, park it in your favorite spot, you plug the filter & pump to the bike and walk away. Oil circulates & is filtered. You come back after a predetermined time and flip a switch. Oil now is pumped into the bike by the drain line and sucked back up thru the fill line. If there's not enough oil in the case, the fill line sucks air until it comes up to level from a make up tank on the filter/pump. Zer gut ya? ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by SV og LS on 02/02/09 at 01:57:37 342730312E2325272C73420 wrote:
One of these QD fittings (http://www.jiffytite.com/motorsports.cfm?subpage=397) might work nicely with your idea I think so you could literally 'plug' the pump into bike. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 02/02/09 at 08:39:02 30350C042F30630 wrote:
Great looking stuff... however, Yogurt frowns... a C note for 2 hoses :o $50 the pump and filter are. Look more you will. |
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Title: Re: Oil pressure at idle, oil pressure at low spee Post by verslagen1 on 02/13/09 at 09:06:13 Harbor Frieght sell an air brush hose with a miniture quick connect for less than $10 each. I doubt those are valved, so would need to be capped when not in use. |
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