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Message started by danroot on 12/24/08 at 02:42:20

Title: valve job
Post by danroot on 12/24/08 at 02:42:20

is $1300 too much to pay for a valve job, i feel like i just got raped.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Oldfeller on 12/24/08 at 03:09:02

Yep, did you get a cigarette afterwards?

What in the hell constitutes a valve job on our bikes anyway? Taking the head off and lapping in four valves?

What caused you to take it in? How many miles did you have on the bike and what happened during the rebuild? New cam chain? Did you drop a valve and require a piston and cylinder bore out?

What does the bill of materials read like?

Title: Re: valve job
Post by danroot on 12/24/08 at 03:16:05

i took it in because of a major oil leak and a lack of power above 40mph. they fixed it for the most part, still have issues. i feel like i got seriously jerked around but they had my bike, what was i to do? the cost doubled what i paid for it.

"valve job" - 2.5 hours labor
"r&r head/barrels/tune" 6.5 hours labor
"gasket set"
"oil filter"
"cam shaft"
"intake rocker"
"exhaust rocker"
"piston rings"

total: 1328.54

Title: Re: valve job
Post by danroot on 12/24/08 at 03:17:44

i was hoping to find a local forum guy here to help me out but i couldnt find anyone, went to a mechanic. never again. i had about 15000 miles on a 22 year old bike.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by rigidchop on 12/24/08 at 07:05:14

coulda bought a low mileage 5 speed motor on ebay for about 600. it kinda depends on your perspective though. if your, now new motor lasts another 22 years, i say its money well spent.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by rigidchop on 12/24/08 at 07:05:55

and thats was alot more than just a valve job.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by verslagen1 on 12/24/08 at 08:20:45

"gasket set"$90
"oil filter"$5
"cam shaft"$110
"intake rocker"$44
"exhaust rocker"$44
"piston rings"$26

$319 parts
1328-319=$1010

"valve job" - 2.5 hours labor
"r&r head/barrels/tune" 6.5 hours labor

9hr labor
1010/9=$112/hr.

I think I've been quoted $90/hr in burbank and $45 in Azusa

Did you leave out something? valvolene? vaselene?

Title: Re: valve job
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/24/08 at 17:56:43

Ive stepped on a garden rake, ONCE. I had a big knot on my 4th grade forehead.
Ive never stepped on a sand trap rake. Looks like maybe you did.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Charon on 12/24/08 at 18:06:28

One presumes you got an estimate before you authorized them to start work. If you did, the total should not have been much of a surprise. If you didn't, I'd have to say you are remiss in not requesting one.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by T Mack 1 on 12/24/08 at 19:16:15

Cam & rocker & rings .... that's more then just a valve job. That's a engine overhaul.

Danroot, Where are you located??? Your profile doesn't show it.

(you can add it by editing your profile from the control panel (CPanel) tab)

Title: Re: valve job
Post by danroot on 12/24/08 at 21:31:18

im located in san jose, i diddnt get an estimate because they diddnt know what was causeing the leak before they started working on it. they thought it was the head gasket which they said would cost 4-600

Title: Re: valve job
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/24/08 at 21:39:27

You mean to tell me all this was an oil leak?

Title: Re: valve job
Post by verslagen1 on 12/24/08 at 22:44:10

lesson to all newbs

ASK US 1ST!

We may not what the answer is, but most likely we do.
Or we'll find somebody that's been there done that.
We span the world and we all speak savage.
head gasket my @$$.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/24/08 at 22:51:31

IF in fact this was an oil leak hassle*, you could have bought the tools, fixed it & pocketed $1,000.00 & stll had enough $$$ left over to go out with a sweet gal & feed her like a queen.

* The infamous "Plug Leak".

Just a guess, I bet that if you took that bike to a reputable mechanic & had it torn down, all that you would find done is the plug fixed.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by danroot on 12/24/08 at 23:57:50

i took it in after a quart of oil spilt on the road after a ride, it was gushing. the cap was replaced, but they claimed the head gasket was blown, and that the valves needed to be replaced.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/25/08 at 06:06:59

And did they hand you your old valves? I hope they did. If so, make sure they actually fit your engine. Why am I being so harsh? I dont know. I just see that $$$$ figure attached to an LS650 repair bill & figure its a rip.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by verslagen1 on 12/26/08 at 10:46:18

Ask for the old parts if no other reason to make sure they were actually replaced.

And I'm sure you can sell them here.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Oldfeller on 12/27/08 at 06:04:40

This guy did not replace your valves, they are not on the parts list.

What he replaced are all the wear parts of the valve actuation train.

If he is honest, he will give you back the spauled cam and rocker tappets which are due to lack of ZDP in modern oils (or a case of low oil or low idle speed for a lot of miles).

He tore your engine down, replaced all worn parts and honed your cylinder and put you in a new set of rings. Pretty much a complete motor rebuild. He owes you the rest of the gasket set that he did not use (you want them, you paid for them).

He didn't do all that work "at risk" -- he talked to you at some point in time to get a "proceed with repair" authorization. They do that you know, for lawsuit reasons.

There is no CAM CHAIN on the list you provided -- at the wear level indicated by the other repair parts that should have been on the list.

If he didn't contact you to get a proceed with repairs authorization, get a lawyer. If he won't give your parts back, have the lawyer ask him.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by verslagen1 on 12/27/08 at 08:24:06

gonna have to rename this thread...... "Ream job"

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Rockin_John on 12/27/08 at 13:51:20

I agree: IF he did all he claims, you got a "top end overhaul," not a "valve job." And if your engine gushed that much oil that quick, it likely did have a major gasket failure. And if the performance went down the tubes after the oil gush, the head gasket is the likely culprit.

Personally, I'm not sure you got reamed so bad... IF the work was done right, and the engine holds up for a couple of years or 10k miles.

However, the other folks here are correct about the business practices: He should have gotten a final "OK" before starting in on an overhaul. He should have returned all the old replaced parts.

And knowing the Savage as we do here, unless you've had the timing chain replaced in the last few thousand miles; he should have done it, or at least reported its condition, while he had the engine torn down.

But... he was probably already nervous about the size of bill that was racking up against you (your bike) already. He could have ended up owning a bike he didn't want if the bill was so high you couldn't or wouldn't pay it!

It would be a good thing, and much appreciated, if you told us here who the mechanic was, as long as you have told the story completely and fairly. (And it sounds like you are being fair and not vengeful.)

----------------------------------------------------

Need to amend this post: As someone else mentioned: The "shop rate" $$$/hour vary greatly. If you dropped you bike of at a Mr. Super Tuner race bike shop that charges $120 an hour, that is your mistake. There is likely a regular independent shop around that charges $65-$80 an hour and does decent work.

And also, unless it sounds like I'm altogether taking the side of all shops (which I wouldn't do, because there are plenty of bad rip-off artists out there). One major point is how high is their parts markup? Did they charge you $185 for a gasket set that cost them $95? Some shops do that. Like a 100% markup. IMO, they are due some markup for the trouble of ordering the parts etc... but the ones that double the money ARE rip-offs, and need to be put out of business by word of mouth.

So... Are you prepared to let us know what he charged you for parts item by item? That would go a long way towards knowing how bad. or IF, you were really hosed badly.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by photojoe on 12/27/08 at 14:07:47

The guy that works on my Audi always gives me a heads-up before starting anything major. The front office of the shop is like the waiting room in the emergency room at the hospital. Mechanic walks out and says "the problem is this and that, and it will cost x amount of $$$, what do you want to do?" This is standard practice for most honest repair places. What they did in this case seems very unprofessional.

Quick question; If they had called you and told you what it would cost, would you have agreed or looked for a second opinion and estimate? This is the choice that you're supposed to have had before they started working on your bike.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Charon on 12/27/08 at 18:07:09

To be pedantic about markup, there is no such thing as "100% markup" unless the original cost was zero. Markup is defined as a certain percentage of the sell price, not the cost price. So, as an example, if the dealer paid $90 for your part, and sold it to you for $180, he sold it at a 50% markup. This is standard practice throughout the retail industry.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by bill67 on 12/27/08 at 18:17:29

If a $100 stock gos up 50% how much is it now. 200 or 150

Title: Re: valve job
Post by savage2k on 12/27/08 at 19:03:30

1D363F2C31305E0 wrote:

Wrong! If the dealer paid $90 for the part and sold it for $180, there was a 100% markup.
A markup is what percentage of the cost price do you add on to get the selling price.
If he added another $90 well that is 100%

With that being said, lets talk Profit Margins of the total 180 dollar sale, he made a 50% profit margin on the total sale, seeing he already spent $90 to stock the item.

Gross Profit
------divided by)----------
Total Revenue

So here we go........

$90 profit
----------(divided by)----------
$180 Total revenue
==============
0.5 or 50% profit margin

Title: Re: valve job
Post by savage2k on 12/27/08 at 19:11:42

33383D3D6766510 wrote:

If a $100 stock gos up 50% how much is it now. 200 or 150

$150

Title: Re: valve job
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/27/08 at 19:20:44

5F747D6E73721C0 wrote:

As a former warehouse manager, buyer I referred to a 100% markup as a 50% profit margin. Yes, you can markup 100%. If I buy for a dollar & sell for 2 the markup is 100 %, profit margin is 50%.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by savage2k on 12/27/08 at 19:37:28

Exactly Justin!

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Charon on 12/27/08 at 19:41:45

I stand corrected. However, I point out that there is more than one way to figure markup. That was the way I was taught.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by savage2k on 12/27/08 at 19:45:14

69424B5845442A0 wrote:

I stand corrected. However, I point out that there is more than one way to figure markup. That was the way I was taught.

Charon, I have made that mistake many times myself.....Even had an hour argument with my BIL years ago to my loss....it's an easily confused thing.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/27/08 at 20:52:25

I have learned from every post Charon has posted I think. That he wasnt dead on on one some meaningless detail is no big deal as far as Im concerned, BUT, I gotta admit, it was fun to finally have the inside track on that guy, even if it is so short lived.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Rockin_John on 12/27/08 at 23:05:17

Well, Just as Charon, I was just figuring it the way I'd been taught as a "retail" markup. If I buy a guitar for $100 and sell it for $200; I call that a 100% markup. And as Charon says 100% or even as much a 300% markup in "retail" markup is not considered out of line considering the MSRP of many items. But most "retail" stuff is discounted so much nowadays that the times of a 300% markup are pretty much a thing of the past.

But my point in my earlier post is: Even though I've worked as a mechanic and service tech most of my life (including being a state licensed HVAC tech)...: I don't consider resale at the point of repair to be "normal" retail: and doesn't entitle the seller to the large markup that a standard retailer might expect. Maybe 25%-50% for their troubles and to make a little on the deal for the trouble. But IMO, any auto/cycle shop, plumber, electrician, electronic tech etc... etc... who marks up his parts 100%+ is ripping people off. IMO, their main value added and profit should be derived from their knowledge/expertice and labor, and NOT the resale of parts at a un-justified level of markup. If I can go to the auto parts store and buy the part to needed to fix a vehicle for $100... I don't see how a shop can justify charging more than $150 for that same part (that is, all guarantees being equal).

Title: Re: valve job
Post by savage2k on 12/28/08 at 03:09:50

1B262A2220271603262127490 wrote:

Title: Re: valve job
Post by T Mack 1 on 12/28/08 at 14:15:48

So.... do you realize that sometimes you can have that kind of Parts mark-up (100%??) and they could still be loosing money.

That mark-up pays for many things. Mortgage (or rent), wages of the administrative staff (mechanics get paid by the service fee but the secretary, parts counter guy & the accountant gets paid from the other charges), the money the Gov wants for each employee (unemployement insurance fee), Business Insurance, the electric company, the Phone comapny, Advertising.... etc etc.

It's one of the reasons I don't go into business myself. You need to be an established business or live at porverty level until the business takes off.

$1300 for a engine rebuild isn't too bad.

The Prev. Owner of my bike was given an estimate of over $2000 for rebuild because it needed a new psiton & new head. They tore it down and then gave the estimate.... He opted to sell the bike and cut the loses. I got a great looking bike with bad enmgine for $500.

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Rockin_John on 12/29/08 at 00:17:39

323A3933372038550 wrote:

[quote author=1B262A2220271603262127490 link=1230115341/30#30 date=1230447917]Well, Just as Charon, I was just figuring it the way I'd been taught as a "retail" markup. If I buy a guitar for $100 and sell it for $200; I call that a 100% markup. And as Charon says 100% or even as much a 300% markup in "retail" markup is not considered out of line considering the MSRP of many items.

And this was said where???? He said that doubling a price is only 50% markup, when it was actually 50% profit margin and 100% markup. Whether it's "retail" market, or wholesale, stocks, housing or whatever you wish, doubling what you paid for an item is 100% markup. In your example you made a 100% markup and 50% profit margin. . You are correct with your guitar example.

Charon wrote "So, as an example, if the dealer paid $90 for your part, and sold it to you for $180, he sold it at a 50% markup. This is standard practice throughout the retail industry. "

Please point out where he said 100% markup is standard practice throughout the retail industry...My computer shows he typed 50%.

Charon wrote "To be pedantic about markup, there is no such thing as "100% markup" unless the original cost was zero."

There is nothing correct about that statement.

There is a difference between markup and profit margin no matter how one justifies their examples as how they were taught.

[/quote]

Savage2K: My quote, and comparison was to "just figuring it the way I'd been taught."

Your assumption that I was quoting and contrasting to Charon's ENTIRE post was a leap you made. Perhaps I should have been more clear in that. But I had no intent in nitpicking Charon's whole post.

I learned a certain way someplace: Charon learned another way someplace. Right there the point of my reference ended as far as I was concerned.

Not getting into here: "show where he said this and that"; because that was never my intent. You jumped to the conclusion that my entire statement was somehow a quote of the entirety of what Charon said. That was not my intent.

FWIW, I agree with you 100% about the 100% markup sale = 50% profit margin on my books.

Just a misunderstanding as far as I'm concerned. Please forgive me if I was not concise enough to be clear.

Perhaps it would be best if I didn't post at all when three days into bronchitis; and stoned on codine and nyquil. :-X ;) :D

Title: Re: valve job
Post by savage2k on 12/29/08 at 03:06:04

Hey, no sweat.....I taught school for 5 years.........It's in my blood to decipher and correct....I have to learn when to shut the heck up. I didn't mean to offend. I get carried away sometimes.

Good job I changed careers ;D

Title: Re: valve job
Post by Rockin_John on 12/29/08 at 07:08:33

5F26466A68603A0B0 wrote:

All correct again! But OTOH, I've (briefly) worked for rip-off shops who did all kinds of underhanded things to increase their "markup."

The first when I was about 16yo, I went to work at an independent VW repair place. The guy had me pulling parts off of one persons car, cleaning them up, and installing them on someone else's car; then charging them for a "new" part! He even had me do it with complete engines!!! Pull an engine, hose it down with de-greaser; maybe touch it up with some rattle can paint: Instant rebuilt motor!!! He was shameless. If any of us employees were caught talking to a customer without sending them to him, we risked being fired. I didn't last a month there before I told a couple of people they needed to get their cars out of this guys lot before he messed them around as such. Then I went in the office and demanded my paycheck. He cheated me to of course!

Another HVAC company I worked for did the same thing with old furnace and A/C parts. Clean up old pulls from equipment salvaged from change-outs, and charge top-dollar retail for used parts! That outfit also "adjusted" the bill according to the neighborhood the job was in. Big fancy house = jack the bill WAY up somehow. Sell them a compressor they didn't need or something. Once again, conscience wouldn't allow me to work there for more than a couple of weeks...

But the "Overhead" of which you speak is also what has prevented me from pursuing my life-long desire to open a combination music and motorcycle store. I think the two adult toy stores together are a natural fit! But the mortgage/lease, insurance, utilities, more insurance, low margin from fighting on-line discounters etc... has stopped me for years. That, and the fact that I see, and sometimes attend closeout auctions of music stores pretty frequently. With so many mom-n-pop music stores going under, some old enough to have the mortgage paid, I figure: "What chance would I have?" I do know a couple of small town stores in well-to-do bedroom communities who make a decent living; but it is almost entirely on selling beginner instruments to parents, and then having a whole staff of drum, bass, and guitar instructors working from small studios in the back. If it wasn't for fleecing mom and dad to teach Johnny and Suzy to play, they wouldn't stand a chance of making a go of it. And even at that, the "teachers" are usually their own kids or nephews etc... and then mom does the books while the old man runs the storefront. It takes a whole family and their friends to keep the doors open. And they're lucky if they can afford workers-comp and health insurance after all the aforementioned expenses. And as if all that weren't bad enough, the current struggling economy has "Luxury" items like Music Instruments, and "hobby" cycling down for the count!

Had I jumped into a combo low-end music instrument, and 50mpg+ moped/scooter business when the gas was sky high; the new lower gas prices would be putting me out of business now as we speak! (An idea that I seriously considered!) :o

ADDITION to this post:

To get back to the original issue (ie, the op's "valve job") I still say if it was done right, it may not have been that bad of an investment.

But as with T-Mack, I got a heckuva deal on my "chopped" 99 savage by buying someone else's troubles. The Alt/Gen Stator winding was bad, and his shop wanted some $650+ for a brand new one and labor.

He sold me the bike at a bargain so he could go on about his business.