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Message started by fawman on 11/22/08 at 13:48:14

Title: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by fawman on 11/22/08 at 13:48:14

My 96' LS 650 succumbed to the infamous oil leak. It appears to be coming from the head seal cap. Thought I could live with it, but it seems to be getting worse. The local dealer said the engine has to be pulled on the 96s, and wants $600.00 for 5.5 hours of labor and parts. Sounds like a hose job (paid $2K for it in May). Was willing to attempt in-frame repair myself.
Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/08 at 13:58:01

The engine & frame havent changed dimensionally in YEARS. He is so full of crap that if he gets cut its gonna smell bad. Run away, run away.
Do it yourself, take the difference in what you would pay to have it done & what it costs you to do it yourself & buy the tools. Youll still have $$$ left over for a road trip.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by skrapiron -FSO on 11/22/08 at 14:17:40

You can pull the head without removing the engine from the frame, but you have to remove the engine support bolts from the front to tip it forward enough to gain clearance.

If you read the book, you should remove the engine and do the repair on a bench. They're quoting the work based on the 'accepted' way of doing it....

Just be sure to replace all of the fasteners once you remove them. The steel Suzuki uses for the bolts is soft and brittle. If you try to retorque the same bolts, you run the risk of snapping them off in the cylinder head. (It has happened to us all. New bolts are a far cry cheaper than having to get the head drilled and helicoiled......)

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Tincanman on 11/22/08 at 14:52:53

Quote:

New bolts are a far cry cheaper than having to get the head drilled and helicoiled......)

AMEN you can buy much better harder bolts for any thing on the entire bike.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 11/22/08 at 15:32:53

Remove the bolts that go through the control plates, the top engine mount, and there is a motor mount that is kind of hidden underneath that goes through the frame. Remove those and the engine will tilt forward to give the clearance needed to remove the head in frame.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by mick on 11/22/08 at 16:06:58

695F5E45587154594359300 wrote:

This is true, also don't forget to slack off the drive belt.
I just put mine back together yesterday after doing the head plug,I did not replace the bolts,I didn't know you were suposed to, (thanks guys )
Take note of the head cover bolts they are all diferent sizes ,I took lancers advice and used a shoe box with a diagram of the head cover ,and made holes in it to put the bolts in, there is a bolt that sits almost dead center ,you must put that in the head cover before you put it back on ,the frame is in the way otherwise,do you have the clymer manual? because there is a bolt that should not be removed ,mine had a phillips hex head , If you need any more help let me know because it is all fresh in my mind, pm me is fine,I'm on line more than most.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Toymaker on 11/22/08 at 17:15:29

While you are at ti, adjust the valves too.

;D

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by verslagen1 on 11/22/08 at 18:00:50

555E475550513F0 wrote:

It's a rip, several here have said it was $2-300 for the 600 mile service, which would have the same amount of work.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Paladin. on 11/22/08 at 19:52:50

606B726065640A0 wrote:

My 96' LS 650 succumbed to the infamous oil leak. It appears to be coming from the head seal cap. ....willing to attempt in-frame repair myself.
Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Bear on 11/22/08 at 20:07:04

You do not need to remove the big nut cover that is at the end of the crank to find TDC. Chances are that you will bugger up the slot in the nut cover. Easier just to remove the spark plug and stick a small clean dowel about 10 inches long in the spark plug hole. Put the bike in 5th gear and rock it back and forth until the dowel sticks out the farthest. Bingo, you are at TDC. Check to see if all the valves are loose, if not, rotate the engine another 360 degrees and you will find TDC on compression. That is where you want to be.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by mick on 11/22/08 at 20:10:27

44757875707D7A140 wrote:

[quote author=606B726065640A0 link=1227390495/0#0 date=1227390494]My 96' LS 650 succumbed to the infamous oil leak. It appears to be coming from the head seal cap. ....willing to attempt in-frame repair myself.
Any thoughts?

I put up with that leak for over a year, after I had the replacement plug on hand! While people note you do not need to pull the engine to pull the head -- you do not need to pull the head to replace that plug, just the head cover. The job is documented in the Tech section, which is what I followed. Greg cites about four hours, if you are good you can probably do it in two, took me three days working on and off (mostly off and including removing the tank a second time to hook up the speedometer.)

The only things that gave me grief were the big slot thingy covering the big nut that rotates the crank, and the philips screws holding the cable for the decompression thingy. Got them off using my impact wrench.
[/quote]
Yes I think your right Paladin,I forgot you only need take the head cover off to get at the plug,I took my head off to check the valves and piston.
On the big slot thingy, I got a 1 1/2 "chissel that was getting old,I ground off the sharp edge on my bench grinder, then ground a nice easy curve on it until it matched the slot, then you have a nice flat spot to use a cresant wrench to assist in unscrewing the thing.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Bear on 11/22/08 at 20:14:44

The Phillips heads that hold the decompression plate on can be really tight. I left mine alone, backed off the adjustment nuts on the cable and got enough slack to pull the cable to the rear and slide out the knob on the end of the cable, disconnecting the cable. I figured I needed to readjust it anyway, so it was no more trouble.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by mick on 11/22/08 at 21:20:22

67776A716D6077050 wrote:

good move Bear I wish I had thought of that,however mine was not that tight ,my power driver handled them ok. but I will remember that next time.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Paladin. on 11/22/08 at 22:40:19

I like impact wrench -- moves without stripping things:

http://paladin.savageriders.com/images/impact1.jpg http://paladin.savageriders.com/images/impact2.jpg
In the righthand picture I think I used 3/4" x 1/8" barstock

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Educatedredneck on 11/23/08 at 00:01:20

I bought a heavy duty gasket scraper at Pep Boys and did the same thing that Mick did, ground the edge down until it mated with the timing cover slot - cost me $5.00 for the scraper. Works slick.
Thought I had the leak solved, but I'm still leaking a tiny bit of oil. Only 32 degrees today, I'll have to wait for it to warm up before I work on the bike.
BTW, she started right up today, I'm still holding out for one last ride.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by Charon on 11/23/08 at 05:44:08

According to my Clymer, the head cover can be removed on SOME, but not ALL, bikes without removing the engine. According to them it depends on the tolerances of the frame as built. They perhaps did not know about the procedure of removing almost all of the engine mount bolts and allowing the engine to tilt forward. They also say the engine must be removed from the frame in order to remove the head, although head removal isn't necessary to repair that particular leak. Looks to me as if that would involve a significant part of the engine removal labor.

Dealerships around here post labor rates of about $65 per hour. The dealership is going to quote the "flat rate" labor from the shop manual when he makes up your estimate. Giving him credit for knowing how to read the manual, 5.5 hours at $65 is $357.50. If shop rates run higher in your area, as they likely do, the price goes up. He will then add the price for whatever gaskets are needed, and whatever hardware the book may say to replace instead of reuse. There will undoubtedly be some charge for "shop materials" such as rags, degreasers, gasket seal, and so on. While $600 seems high, especially for a 12-year-old bike that only cost you $2000, he can probably justify his estimate. Remember his labor and parts cost are not related to the age or cost of your machine.

People on this forum, and others, persist in referring to "stealerships." I suggest a little research into the costs of running a motorcycle dealership before the blanket condemnations. Those motorcycles, and ATVs, and personal watercraft, the helmets and jackets and accessories, the parts in inventory, are costing him money. The building in which he operates costs him money. Keeping the lights on and the air conditioner/heater working costs him money. The people in the building cost him money. The only way he can make that money is to charge for his services. I am not trying to defend all dealerships, but there is more to running a business than meets the eye.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by fawman on 11/23/08 at 09:37:55

Thanks to all for experiences, insights, and suggestions. Once I pick up some additional tools and the recommended parts, I'll give it a go over the holidays.

Didn't mean to dis dealerships/repair shops; I'm a bike newbie, and am trying to learn the difference between reasonable and ripoff.

Title: Re: Oil Price Up, Not Down
Post by verslagen1 on 11/23/08 at 11:14:37

60706D766A6770020 wrote:

You do not need to remove the big nut cover that is at the end of the crank to find TDC. Chances are that you will bugger up the slot in the nut cover.

The chances are that you'll bugger something up then how do ever get any work done? Get over it. Cheaper to booger up something and replace it, then to depend upon the dealer for everything.

Tip: A used front brake pad fits nicely into the timing port slot. And is strong enough to put a wrench on and twist with all your might. ;D