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Message started by srinath on 10/30/08 at 08:26:13

Title: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 10/30/08 at 08:26:13

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/43/Year/2002/ModelID/6838/Model/LS650P_SAVAGE/GroupID/292000/Group/STARTER_CLUTCH

The part #1 was updated from 86-96. The old one was a simple gear with a pin, this one looks like a big bobbin with maybe a bendix type inside it. Does anyone know if it does anything to help ... I guess backfire @start up is the thing its designed to help for.
Anyone know if its going to do much.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by verslagen1 on 10/30/08 at 09:04:46

The problem with the '86-'88's is the kickback issue on shutdown. All the bikes have it, some hear it as an odd twang.

On shutdown, sometimes the engine will stop just prior to TDC on the compression stroke and go backwards. the starter has a one way clutch to disengage it on startup. this one way clutch engages when the engine is going backwards. This can be disasterous on the early bikes, but the new bikes have a clutch to limit the amount of torque that can be forced into the starter.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 10/30/08 at 09:37:28

That starter gear part 1 in this pic, that has a 1 way does it.
Now also I thought the problem happens when the engine misfires on startup ... not on shut down.
I almost know that for sure ...
See I bought this bike that sat for 17 years. The owner says he parked it in his uncles building in 91. There it sat ... some time in 93-94 his mom who was the owner of the bike died and possibly someone tried to get the bike running. The bike as I saw it had carbs that were gummed up and the gears on the starter teeth etc etc had been busted out. My bet is that it happened at startup, not at shutdown, cos I dont believe it actually started up.
Anyway ... just a theory. The 97 starter idler gear does that job of keeping the teeth from shearing off ?
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by Kropatchek on 10/30/08 at 09:51:59

You're both right.
I frequent the German Savage forum quite frequently and some believe the the teeth break off at startup and some on killing the engine. I think both opinions are valid.
1) If at startup the electronic decompressor unit is not working properly the load on the startergear might break-off the teeth.
2) When killing the engine the piston can kick-back and do the same with the starter gear.
Solutions:

1) Make sure the decompressor is properly adjusted and working. All engines

2) Install the electric decompressor device as mentioned earlier in this forum. Only for engines pre 1996

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 10/30/08 at 10:46:33

Thanks K.
Now I have my left case open and going for a weld up job this weekend cos the idler pivot is busted loose. I am htinking I'd buy a 97 idler and use it in my 86 ... or maybe put this back as all stock, but do it to my long term bike, the chopper.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by Rockin_John on 10/30/08 at 21:55:29

As long as this old subject has reared it's head up again...
(Hi Krop, how it goin' ?)

It bears mentioning that one of our German brethren designed and built a small
electronic circuit for the early bikes; which is supposed to greatly reduce
the chance of the "kick back" and destruction caused by the early Savages lack
of a clutch in the starting gear mechanism.

IIRC, we (at least Krop and I) asked and gained permission to copy the
un-patented circuit for personal use or distribution to those in need. A
handful of common electronic devices, housed in a piece of PVC pipe, or
similar construction wouldn't be that difficult. However, nobody with
the necessary skills ever seemed to find the time to make a few. If any
inspired newb has time on their hands, they are welcome to ask for the
schematic. I might even be able to find it amongst my several thousand others! :D

Through study in prep on a possible purchase, I recently discovered that
the early comeback Triumph triple cylinder bikes had a similar problem
with the same potential for disaster: Best case; striped or broken gears;
worst case: busted crankcase and serious expense and work!

I don't mind the idea of such a possible flaw in a bike worth several hundred
or a couple of thousand $$$. But the idea of riding a 10+YO bike that is a
ticking cracked crankcase, didn't appeal to me. However, Triumph supposedly
completely eliminated the flaw in later series of bikes; as did the Savage/S40
with their starter clutch.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 10/31/08 at 04:14:54

Hey Rocking John,
I make mechanical and metal things all the time, I am not that capable of making electrical, and I remember the schematic. Hit the kill switch and it activates the section of the start circuit that fires the solenoid for an instant on shut down. However, Mine, blew on startup ... for sure, not at shutdown.
BTW you used to be in statesville if I rememeber. I am in charlotte and go through S'ville everyday.
I also am building a chopper by getting longer legs for the fork.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 10/31/08 at 07:37:31

And I dont actually believe suzuki eliminated any thing much really ...
This is what suzuki did AFAIK.
The big gear on the crank has 80 teeth. The gear that mates to it on an 86-96 is a double stack and the inner 1/2 that mates to the gear has 10 teeth and the outer one that mates to the starter has say 30-40 teeth and the next gear that mates to the starter has 30-40 teeth. Its a single gear, not a double.
97 and later the gear that mates to the starter is a double stack and its starter 1/2 has 3 rows of teeth. The inner is 8-10 teeth that mates to the second gear which has 20 or so teeth, that mates to the 80 teeth crank gear.
What the old design used to do is the 80 tooth guy was turned by the 8 tooth guy ... making for load transfer on 1 tooth. A back fire will be dropped on 1 tooth, and almost certainly shear it off.
The 97+ that 80 tooth gear is spun by a 20 toother (which kills my swap in idea right there cos pivot locations have to be different) and that 20 is spun by the 8 toother ... and a backfire can be withstood and maybe the 3 rows of teeth on the starter are designed so that if one breaks, well the other 2 in that row will still provide drive.
Maybe.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by Kropatchek on 11/01/08 at 09:01:27

36372C2B24312D450 wrote:

Think you need to replace more parts than the idler gear. Also the cover needs to be reworked as the gear with the slipclutch is much wider.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by Kropatchek on 11/01/08 at 09:05:26

@ Rocking and srinath
If you're interested link to the Dutch forum with lots of pictures of the fabrication of the decompressor gadget. Never mind the text its alll bla,bla
Greetz

Oops! forgot the link
http://www.suzukisavage.nl/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=25/finish=15/start=0.html

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 11/01/08 at 17:56:59

0E372A352431262D202E450 wrote:

[quote author=36372C2B24312D450 link=1225380374/0#4 date=1225388793]Thanks K.
Now I have my left case open and going for a weld up job this weekend cos the idler pivot is busted loose. I am htinking I'd buy a 97 idler and use it in my 86 ... or maybe put this back as all stock, but do it to my long term bike, the chopper.
Cool.
Srinath.

Think you need to replace more parts than the idler gear. Also the cover needs to be reworked as the gear with the slipclutch is much wider.

[/quote]

Yea I figured that ... the gears are in different locations too.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by Rockin_John on 11/02/08 at 17:55:04

2E2F34333C29355D0 wrote:

Srinath, you have my location confused with someone else I think. Always in OK here... But you and I did some parts buy/sell/trade a year or so ago. That's probably where you got the address confusion from.

And Ya, I still have the pics of your Savage with the dirt bike forks mounted on it. That's yet another direction I'd like to go one of these days!

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by srinath on 11/03/08 at 06:26:57

Aah OK.
I think I have seen a pic of a savage possibly here with extended stock forks and a stretched neck ... like extended by cutting and welding. Thought that was yours. That bike was owned by someone in statesville NC.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by Mr 650 on 11/05/08 at 08:04:13

...and the "Daily Stare" ain't bad either [smiley=laugh.gif]
http://www.suzukisavage.nl/Daily_Stare.html

0138253A2B3E29222F214A0 wrote:

@ Rocking and srinath
If you're interested link to the Dutch forum with lots of pictures of the fabrication of the decompressor gadget. Never mind the text its alll bla,bla Greetz Oops! forgot the link
http://www.suzukisavage.nl/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=25/finish=15/start=0.html

Title: Re: 1997 savage starter idler gear
Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/08 at 22:36:50

I certainly appreciate the effort they went thru to document the project as now that I have an '88, I'll need one.

But hope he had a good laugh at himself for finding such a great project box after finishing the project. ;D