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Message started by Red_Wine on 10/07/08 at 14:48:15

Title: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 10/07/08 at 14:48:15

Hi fellas,

As you know, my 400cc Savage has been sitting for over a year :'( as a result of of a major f**k in the top end and twisted rings and damaged piston. :(

As it is virtually impossible to get a new 400cc piston for my Savage, I am planning to have a piston made at a local machine shop. However, I need to know the type of material it is made of. I know the piston is an alluminum alloy, but how much is aluminum and how much other metals? :-?

Any ideas or suggestions? Anything I should be careful about?

Thanks in advance and take care.

Best,

RW

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by T Mack 1 on 10/07/08 at 15:02:49

Did you check out Wiseco???

They have LS650 pistons. If you know the bore, maybe you can contact them and ask if they have equivalent.

http://www.wiseco.com/

here's their LS650 numbers.... but I though STD was 94mm :-?

LS650 Part Number Price BoreSize/
OverSize Attributes

4597M09500 $182.18 95.00mm /
STD Displacement: 641cc
Stroke: 90.40mm

4597M09600 $182.18 96.00mm /
1.00mm Displacement: 654cc
Stroke: 90.40mm

4597M09700 $200.41 97.00mm /
2.00mm Displacement: 668cc
Stroke: 90.40mm

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 10/07/08 at 15:30:37

T Mack,

Thanks for the info, but I doubt the 650 piston will work on my 400. I will try to contact them and find out if they will make one for me, but I guess it will be dammed expensive.

Do you know what alloy is the piston? Maybe I can get a similar alloy here and have a piston made locally. I hate to see the bike sitting for so long and no piston to get it running. Everything else is OK.

I will check the bore of the cylinder over the weekend if i can catch my mechanic.

Thanks.

RW

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by mikestrikes on 10/07/08 at 17:02:45

Most pistons are made from 2618 alloy..

http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/2618.asp#chemistry

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by BurnPgh on 10/07/08 at 17:34:15

I have no experience with the LS400, but I think with Hondas over seas shadows the only engine difference is bore and piston size. If you'll potentially spend a whole bunch getting a new 400 piston why not just bore it out and get a 650 piston? Should be like a whole new bike. Just curious, what kind of gas consumption are/were you getting with the 400?

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by EssForty on 10/07/08 at 18:43:36

Unlikely you could bore out a 400 to a 650. Good rule of thumb is 2mm bore max. Not sure what the stroke is but let's guess 75mm. So I'd think you'd be doing good if you could bore a 400 to a 430cc.

Anyone else have experience boring 5 mm or more?

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by EssForty on 10/07/08 at 18:58:00

4D696B65735472696B6573000 wrote:

Most pistons are made from 2618 alloy..

http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/2618.asp#chemistry

Yes. Low silicon alloys like 2618 are pretty common. Another piston option is 4032, but is less likely. If the OP has a foundry or test lab nearby they could zap it with a spectrometer and have an answer quickly.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by YonuhAdisi on 10/07/08 at 23:07:46

5821416D6F673D0C0 wrote:

I thought wiseco didn't do the LS650 piston anymore? I know Mikestrikes has posted a thread where they told him they don't have that piston.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by dasch on 10/07/08 at 23:47:51

Have you measured the 400cc's piston?? We had this discussion somewhere, can't remember now, but It may be that shorter stroke is the only difference between 650 and 400. In that case you need a 650 piston (94mm, I think). It's worth a try.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by KwakNut on 10/08/08 at 00:44:46

7245447F77494E45200 wrote:

I am planning to have a piston made at a local machine shop. However, I need to know the type of material it is made of. I know the piston is an alluminum alloy, but how much is aluminum and how much other metals? :-?

Have a really good think about getting a local machine shop to make you a piston when they don't even know what material to use - you can't just turn a piston out of piece of aluminium bar, they have to be cast or preferably forged to have the right pre-stressing, and only a specialised piston manufacturer can do this.
Even then, the manufacturing processes are critical to make a piston which is neither too soft nor too brittle.

Order one from a piston manufacturer. When you have your newly delivered piston, take it to the machine shop with your cylinder to get the rebore done, but unless your local shop is an incredibly special place, don't let them try making you a piston.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 10/08/08 at 06:54:51

794E49556B5C533B0 wrote:

I do not think boring the cyl up will allow for a 650 piston. Besides, the head is different from the 650.

I was getting around 20 kms per liter of gas on my 400.
Take care,

RW

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 10/08/08 at 07:00:19

083422280D3637430 wrote:

Order one from a piston manufacturer. When you have your newly delivered piston, take it to the machine shop with your cylinder to get the rebore done, but unless your local shop is an incredibly special place, don't let them try making you a piston.

KwakNut,

Thanks for the info. I have a major issue though.

I think there is no piston manufacturer in Chile using forged or cast technologies; most of them are in Argentina, or Brazil. I only know machine shops here, and you may be right they are not specialized in making pistons. I will have to double check on this.

I'll keep everyone posted on progress.

Best,

RW

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by SV og LS on 10/08/08 at 07:33:10

Having one single piston machined from billet is not practical but slightly modifying another piston is doable. Take your old piston to a good shop who do engine overhauls and stuff and ask them to find a close match. They should have reference books with specs of pistons from engine part manufacturers. I can mail you links to shops who deal with grey market Jap bikes and spares if you're interested?

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 10/08/08 at 09:35:17

090C353D16095A0 wrote:

I can mail you links to shops who deal with grey market Jap bikes and spares if you're interested?

Please, do. I will appreciate it very much.

Thanks,

RW

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 10/09/08 at 15:21:06

I got this message from SV og LS:

"Sender: SV og LS
To: Red_Wine

Subject: Links
Date: Yesterday at 20:25:14
BAT Motorcycles have good connections to Japan and should be able to source you a piston. Here you can fill detailed parts search and if some breakers have the part, they'll contact you. To be honest I'm afraid you won't find a 400 piston at least for a reasonable price. You may need to buy a whole 650 engine which don't cost that much these days. I hope you'll find something to fix your problem.

Maybe someone else is also needing this info.

I have already contacted them, hopefully it will work.

Best,

RW

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by SV og LS on 10/10/08 at 13:12:44

7D4A4B707846414A2F0 wrote:

There were two links which didn't survive copypasting. The links are to a very good British dealer who deal with gray imports including parts and manuals which are very rare outside Japan. The other link leads to a query form through which you can get a price quote from several British breakers. With LS650 these links are not needed as you can get parts anywhere but in this Red_Wine's case LS400 engine parts are very hard to find.

BAT Motorcycles (http://www.bat-motorcycles.co.uk/)

Suzuki parts search (http://bike-breakers.info/Forms/Suzuki.htm)

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Ed L. on 10/10/08 at 13:46:46

Would it be possible to remachine a 650 piston? I don't know if there is enough metal on the larger piston to allow it to be resized down to the smaller bore. At least you wouldn't have to worry about the wrist pin. I think all that Suzuki did with the 400 was reduce the diameter of the bore and keep the same stroke. I don't know what you could do about the rings, maybe see if a set for the 400 is advailable or find a set that is close and have the piston cut to fit.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by SV og LS on 10/10/08 at 14:30:39

4B6A5142200E0 wrote:

It can't be done, there's too much difference. Also the stroke is shorter, LS400 has maximum power at 7000 rpm.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Ed L. on 10/10/08 at 17:18:14

Thanks for making that clear, I heard somewhere that the bottom end of the engine and connecting rod were exactly the same and the only difference was a smaller bore. Oh well :-/.

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by KwakNut on 10/13/08 at 02:42:41

1A3B0013715F0 wrote:

Thanks for making that clear, I heard somewhere that the bottom end of the engine and connecting rod were exactly the same and the only difference was a smaller bore. Oh well :-/.

I'd assumed the opposite - though it would have to be a shorter stroke and bore based on there being nothing but ditch pumps built in the last 50 years with a longer stroke than bore - I hadn't really thought about cruisers and big twins.
The 1200 Sportster has a 9% longer stroke than bore and the 883 Sportster has a stroke 27% longer than its bore, which is about the same as the 400 Savage would need if it retained the 650 stroke.

Different world to sports bikes - their stroke is only about 2/3 of the bore!

Title: Re: piston alloy
Post by Red_Wine on 11/10/08 at 04:22:32

Hello to all of you following my saga. I got this message this morning in my Inbox and has brightened my day. ;D

"Hi Sergio,

Genuine parts are available here for the LS400. There is a set of rings in stock in New Zealand, and we can import a piston and pin from Japan which will take about 10 days to arrive. (Do you not have a Suzuki importer in Chile?)

Prices are in NZ dollars:

Piston $235.97
Ringset $115.81
Piston pin $41.77

Regards,

Tony Koole
HALDANE MOTORCYCLES
706 Great South Road
Penrose
AUCKLAND
NEW ZEALAND
P: +64 9 579 6020
F: +64 9 579 6021
E: haldanemc@xtra.co.nz
W: www.haldanes.co.nz"

Only US$240, plus shipping across the big lake. Not bad after 18 months of blackness... 8-)

I will keep you posted.

Best,

RW