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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1218554343 Message started by drums1 on 08/12/08 at 08:19:02 |
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Title: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 08/12/08 at 08:19:02 Here's the scenerio: I had a clutch put in the bike 2 weeks ago. Going in, there was no more than normal ticking noise from valve area. Bike ran good. Just was slipping a little in 3-4. Ever since I got it back, there was a loud slapping clunk when I reved engine-in gear but stopped. Sounded like lower end. And the valve ticking noise was a little louder. I took it back and he said the clutch is ok, he adjusted the cable, and he told me he couldn't hear the other noise at all. (B.S.) The oil was like thick black soup after only 30 miles. After work Friday, I went for a short spin. (5 miles at 50 mph) All of a sudden the clicking on top end of motor was very loud. Bike stalled. I barely got it started and limped home. I have adjusted the valves twice now and changed the oil, but both times, as soon as I'm done, within 2 minutes of idling, the loud clicking starts again. A short run up the alley, it stalls and sounds like I never adjusted the valves at all. All the noise is at the top, by the rockers. Is something else up in there that may have broke or come loose that I'm not seeing?? Cam trouble? Bent valve? Hole in piston? :-/ |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Reelthing on 08/12/08 at 08:37:43 When you drain the oil are you getting out the same amount as went in? I'd sure pull the clutch side cover and have a look at the cam chain tensioner - if they working in the area and the tensioner was on it's last click of two I can sure image it pop'n apart. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 08/12/08 at 08:40:48 Ya, the oil was right, just dirty. But if the tensioner was going bad or came apart, would that cause loud clacking up top by the valves? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Max_Morley on 08/12/08 at 12:01:36 First pull the tank and valve adjustment covers and see if you have oil up there and in the pocket under the cam lobs. If not, I'd check in your shop manual for the oil flow to the head, seems to me it goes from the pump up along the clutch cover to a passage that goes up the right rear stud for the cylinder. If that gasket wasn't carefully and correctly installed, it could either plug or lose oil flow to the head area. If so the shop that did the clutch is on the hook. I'd suggest you get the facts diagrams etc., and then be there when they open the cover so they can see if that is the problem and not be able to accuse you of manufacturing it. If saving the oil is an issue, Lean the bike over on something soft on the left side and work on it that way. Once the cam & rocker arm area are run dry and scuff, it is impossible to stop the wear and valves won't hold their adjustment. FWIW, the rattle in mine when the tensioner went sounded like valves. AS advised before check that when the RH cover is off. Max |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by verslagen1 on 08/12/08 at 13:16:46 Any unexplaned noise I'd certainly take off the covers untill I found the culprit. dam gremlins. :o |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/12/08 at 15:56:37 Unexplained noises can suddenly become self explanatory noises. Big crunching sounds can come outta that thing, at the same time major parts bite into each other. I would park it & start taking stuff off till I eithe knew it wasnt a fatal issue or I found it. Use a stethoscope/screwdriver, something to listen to that thing closely before stripping it down. Take notes, unless you have a better memory than I do.Good luck. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Ed L. on 08/12/08 at 18:53:39 Park the bike and pull the right side cover, check the tensioner and take it from there. A bad cam chain can cause major damage to the engine. Don't ride or run the bike till you check it. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 08/14/08 at 06:45:05 Thanks for all the input. Sundays project: pull clutch cover. I'll be walking until then. Dammit. I'll keep you posted as to what I find inside. There is 11,600 original miles on the bike, so I am expecting to find the tensioner in peices, or close to it. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by verslagen1 on 08/14/08 at 07:37:05 Thanks drum, the last guy who asked about this noise is walking too, but we didn't get to him in time. His motor blew. :o |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by skrapiron on 08/14/08 at 07:46:01 If he lives near an airport, the motor is fine. It is those pesky gremlins... When the clutch was replaced, you would think that whoever did it might have noted the distance tensioner was out. I'd take it back to whoever did the work and have them see what is going on. Maybe they left something loose in the clutch basket and it's causing the tapping. Anyway, at least they would have to replace the clutch cover gasket instead of you... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 08/24/08 at 09:30:49 Well, to avoid making that mistake again, I had her towed to the dealer. When told where the clutch was done, the 1st thing dealer says is " oh-oh....." They used sealer instead of gasket on the side cover. May have clogged oil galley. May have put oil pump gear on wrong. He said they would check it all out and call me if it needs anything beyond the chain, tensioner, guides and gasket. I haven't heard anything in 6 days, so I'm hoping nothing else went wrong. I would have done the work myself and saved a few bucks, but I've never been inside the motor, and figure the dealer would do a much better repair than I could. $600, including the tow. Oh well, at least I'll be able to ride some more before the snow flies. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/01/08 at 16:13:39 Well, got a call from the dealer the other day. Turns out, the oil filter was in backwards, some bolt that holds the clutch basket tightly on the shaft was loose, old gasket was re-used with goop sealer, and the kicker--the oil pump drive gear was put on backwards--no oil to top of motor for 50 miles I put on after clutch job. It kept stalling and cranking over real slow--may have seized the cam bearings. But he says the chain, guides and tensioner are ok. I am having them put in a new tensioner adjuster anyway--$44.00, and the folks who did the clutch job are paying for the rest of it, including the tow. The dealer is going to see if she can be saved. If not I will be getting a new motor. Hopefully before riding season is over. ( Wisconsin here ) I'm waiting out the holiday weekend for parts, and hope to have her back by Friday. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Dj12midnit on 09/01/08 at 20:47:29 Man I feel your pain. Looks like it was a good thing you towed it to the dealer. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by verslagen1 on 09/01/08 at 20:59:44 Don't waste $44 on a perfectly good tensioner. This part goes bad only if the chain goes slack and the plunger falls out. Just before it does that, it wiggles like crazy making it home in the housing go oval. Lots of us here are looking for engines to play with, don't let them keep it if you can. ;D |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/04/08 at 13:57:04 Oops, my bad. It's the tensioner adjuster that is being replaced--with the new updated version. Not the actual tensioner. If it ends up with a new (used) motor, I certainly will retain the old one. Spare parts if nothing else. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by 07S40rider on 09/04/08 at 14:05:04 Forum members who live in your area might be interested in what |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by T Mack 1 on 09/04/08 at 18:36:49 Make sure the dealer checks the cam journal. There are NO Cam bearings and the cam rides on a film of oil on bare aluminum.... Low oil Press or bad oil can cause damage. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/04/08 at 23:22:40 I most likely wouldnt say too much publicly about a place that SAID theyd pay for it. Not today, anyway.. ;D |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/06/08 at 20:59:46 Ace Motorsports in Kenosha, Wisconsin. The dealer where it is being fixed is Schauer Motorsports in Union Grove, Wisconsin. I assume he will check the cam journal. I had told him that it was cranking slow and stalling. He said he would let me know if any further damage is found--I haven't heard anything yet. I think he's still waiting for parts. If there is additional damage, Ace pays for new motor, or I take Ace to court. Simple as that. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/08 at 07:08:04 You know, after years on this list I can count the times we collectively have screwed up our own bikes to any small degree when working on them on one hand. Yet there have been DOZENS of dealership "mechanics" who have trashed our new members bikes to some degree in the same time period. The 600 mile required warranty servicing (fairly detailed and internally invasive) seems pretty popular for trashing the bolt access seal, etc. Not the first backwards oil filter we have heard about either, eh? I can remember back when I was in college I worked at Honda of Raleigh as an assembly mechanic (putting together new bikes). My qualifications? They knew I had torn down a CB160 to the cases and put it back together with new parts I bought while working in the Parts Dept as a gofer. If I was willing to work 40 hrs a week, I could have been a "mechanic", given the easy jobs to do. I wonder what the requirements are now? Hmmmmm .... When we forget to record our steps or take a pic or baggie the stuff in order when we work on our own bikes, we consult manuals and ASK THE QUESTIONS here on the list before bulling on ahead. A bike "mechanic" knows he only has 2.3 hours to get the job done, and by god he gets it done inside 2.3 hours .... goop on top of old gasket and filter in backwards and oil pump gear in backwards and anything else it takes to get it back together, quick. =============================== Imagine the bullshit they are going to do to that bike to fake up (cover up) the torn-up cam bearings in the head issues and spauled camshaft lobes and gouged out rocker arms and anything else they actually find inside that bike. Bet they put some real heavy weight oil back in it, what'cha think? If they put the oil filter in backwards, they would have stress cracked the oil filter cover -- you should be able to see the circular crack in the center of the triangular oil filter cover if you look close. The spud with the "O" ring in the back of the recess will be totally trashed too, since it got crammed in against the bypass valve and crunched. If they are honest, they will buy you a good used motor with equivalent miles on it as that is the CHEAPEST way to do right by you. You ran that bike for 50 miles with NO OIL PRESSURE AT ALL -- no lube at all to lots of critical bearings and components. But then, "doing right by you" doesn't seem to be their main interest in life, does it? =============================== Who does pro-bono (free community service) legal work in your community? Find out and have a quick talk with them. Do you have a news channel that has a "Channel 5 on your side" feature -- talk to these media story hungry people, they swing tremendous clout in these situations. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/12/08 at 10:57:50 Well, I got the bad news from the dealer the other day. He got the new tensioner adjuster in and a gasket and made sure oil was flowing to top of motor. Unfortunately, it still has a loud knock. I let the guy at Ace know, and he was supposed to call the dealer to ok the teardown work. He has not called as of this morning, and is amazingly out of town until Monday. :o Imagine that! I told his second in command to tell him that if he doesn't contact the dealer on Monday, he will be hearing from my lawyer on Teusday. I guess I will have to wait and see what's going to happen now. I assume I'm done riding for this season. 5 weeks ago..... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by T Mack 1 on 09/12/08 at 13:55:09 Hmmmmm did the dealer say they checked the CAM too??? Checking the cam is a real pain in the butt, so I would not be surpirsed if they didn't. it's not hard, jsut a bunch of little steps to do. tank off, chorme cvrs off, top eng mount off, Decompression linkage off, bunch of botls, puzzle the head cover off (twist this way and that till the right combination clears the frame). |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/12/08 at 16:05:23 The dealer said he would tear down motor and check everything--fixing whatever it needs. But he won't start until the guy from Ace gives his ok, since he's the one paying for it. Dealer doesn't want to get stuck if Ace backs out. Cam, rockers, valves, whatever it takes. Dealer said based on what he's seeing and hearing, it will probably cost around 7-800, but won't know for sure 'till teardown. May be more. We shall see..... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/24/08 at 16:39:03 well here's the latest. apparently, the dealer doesn't want to work on it either. it's being towed back to the idiots that messed it up in the 1st place. i'm sure he'll schmooze it back together with some thick oil and sawdust and send me on my way. i guess i'm gonna end up sueing somebody. either way i'm done riding for this year. i'll be lucky if i get the darn thing back by christmas. and i'm sure it will never be right or never be the same as it was before. i like the bike and all but this is rediculous. i want to ride, not pull my hair out for 1/2 the summer. maybe it's time for a harley....... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/08 at 17:24:14 You need a box of parts. Everything they replace, to see the damage. If they try to replace the head cover due to cam journal damage, they have to replace the head. Mark some bolts with a tiny punch, etc, to know what all they took apart. Any way you can put anything across the cases to know if they split the cases? maybe somekinda mix of gasket materials, odd color, across the bottom? If they are smart( we KNOW this one, dont we?) they'll buy a used motor & be done with this nightmare. Put the filter in Bakkerds? HOW??? Wouldnt be easy. Slap a flat plate against a spigot? Expecting What Igzakleee? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by verslagen1 on 09/24/08 at 17:31:51 another thing to watch for is a blow out in the oil filter cover. It's been done. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/25/08 at 08:26:30 it went straight from the dealer to the idiots, so i have no way of marking anything. yes, the oil filter was in back-asswards. the dealer showed me it and it was dented in. i'm surprised it didn't blow the filter cover off, except that the oil pump drive gear was on back-asswards too. the idiots still deny this, saying the clutch basket was never removed. can the disks and springs be replaced without removing the basket? as far as the used motor, that would seem to be the way to go--but i have a new clutch and a new tensioner-adjuster in the old engine. would they be changed over? would it be done correctly? i seriously doubt it. also, the old motor has only 11,600 miles on it. would i get a motor with as few miles on it, or some old dog with 40 or 50k on it? who knows, and they'd probably lie about that too. it's a nightmare. and i can't seem to wake up. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/08 at 10:46:18 You would need to find the motor, then the place you get it from can tell you the miles on it, then they can call & buy it. I would be there when the work was done on the clutch swap. If the dealership says the gear was backwards & these idiots put the filter in backwards, they have zero credibility to argue against the word of the dealer mechanics. IOdiots, lying to cover their butts? Ever happen? Hekk, ever NOT happen? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by T Mack 1 on 09/25/08 at 12:18:56 3E282F37296B5A0 wrote:
Yes they can........ .... and basket can be removed without removing the oil pump gear. but..... replaceing cam chian requires removing stuff..... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 09/28/08 at 15:50:56 oh it gets good now.....idiots finally got it back in their shop--he was going to readjust the valves and adjust the decomp solenoid. he says that was loose too, and may cause some of the noise. I called him at 3:00 and he tells me "sorry but I have no good news for you. It needs a new cam and head and head cover. My guy is looking for one right now." wonderful. so, how long now, another 2-3 weeks? he says ya something like that. I was going to ask if he would mind just storing it over winter and I'll pick it up in April. Maybe it would be done by then and not below freezing outside. needless to say................. >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:(-- >:( |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/08 at 16:15:41 Tell 'em you want the old parts as proof of repair. I think oldfeller wants them to test a repair technique and lancer could use the cam. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Jay on 09/28/08 at 22:02:27 We need to pitch in for some KY for this guy. He is getting Skeerude!! Depending on your resources, I'd get that bike outta there before they do anything else, take photos, hire a lawyer, get a deposition from the second shop; and basically make the lives of the guys at the first shop a living hell for as long as you're able. Oh, and the news crew idea sounds like a winner too. Make sure everyone in the surrounding 5 states knows what a bunch of losers these guys are. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by T Mack 1 on 09/30/08 at 18:14:27 They caused the cam journal to wear.... I'm sorry for you. But, if you get it back soon (2- 3wks), you may still get a ride or two in. Doesn't take much to kill the journal, it's only aluminum.... The salvage yard near me (east-side of PA) charged me $200 for the complete head assembly just over a year ago. I bought my bike in pieces. One mistake I oops on, I didn't replace the valve guides and seals. Now when the bike is cold I can get gray smoke on rapid acceleration. :( |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 10/04/08 at 11:34:18 At this point, nothing would surprise me. I'm just going to let them finish it, see what I end up with, and I'm sure he knows I'll sue him if it ain't right. Last time I talked to him he says he has a used cam, head and cover on the way. Coming early this week. I might get it back in another 2-3 weeks! I'm definately getting the old parts back. He told me the old cam was broke, so that won't do anybody any good. We'll see about the head. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by Oldfeller on 10/04/08 at 13:25:37 Drums, get your used parts back as proof the work was done. Lancer may be able to use the sick cam as long as the main bearing zones aren't torn up. I would like a trashed head (both halves) to play with, to see if a repair method can be developed for the journal damage. Having a cam (broken or not) would be helpful as well. You are getting used parts in place of used parts, so if they are good used parts the guy should have no issue giving you the dead parts back. If he doesn't give them back, well, you must still have them in the bike then, right? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 10/18/08 at 18:03:45 oh.....oh.....oh.....I talked to the idiots today. He says they got in the motor yesterday and are working on it today, should be ready sometime on Monday. Not sure if they're doing just the head or the whole dam thing. I'm betting Tuesday or Wednesday before it's ready, if then. Highs here are now in the low 60's-upper 50's. Gee, I won't have to stud the tires for another 3 weeks or so. I'll keep you posted as to when I get it back and if any of the old parts are available. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/18/08 at 20:32:33 As far as I know, no one has done this much damage to their Savage themselves. I guess you have to pay someone who knows HOW to wreck things to really do it right. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 10/25/08 at 07:35:24 Update!! Update!! I went to pick up the bike on Wednesday evening--waited, waited, dude never came out with it. I walked around back to service area, and they had the seat, tank and top covers off. I say "what's up"? He says "well, we got an oil leak". I wanted to smash his head with a 5 pound sledge. I call him back on Thursday, and he says "bolt was boogered up and we had to pull the head again and put in a helicoil". Wonderful. "Will it be done today"? Ya, it was done--5 minutes before closing--no time to drive the 20 miles to get it. Well, miracles do happen, and I actually picked it up Saturday afternoon. 48 degree's and raining. But I got it. FINALLY !!!!! I still need to go through the box of old parts--I'll let ya know what's all there shortly. First, I'm gonna make like a biker and RIDE for a bit. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Valve/Engine Noise Post by drums1 on 10/25/08 at 10:29:31 OK. I got the upper and lower pieces of the head, a couple gears, 2 top covers, and a bunch of bolts. Cam was literally broke in 1/2. The cam journals are deeply scored. I may tear down the head and save the valves and stuff--not sure if they're any good or not. Ah, hell. Who do you know wants a head? No charge--you pay shipping. I think Old Feller wanted it for repair testing? Let me know. |
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