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Message started by 88pagan on 07/28/08 at 17:35:10

Title: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/28/08 at 17:35:10

I don't know if I can explain this well enough but I'll try and hopefully has some kind of info to help me out here. I've got a 96 savage that's been running fine until this afternoon. While traveling up a slight uphill in 3rd, something sounded as though it broke somewhere inside the engine (not REAL loud) and the bike started dying. I pulled the clutch and coasted to a stop. The first time I tried to start it again it was a little bit clunky, the second time it just sounded as though there wasn't any compression. I just pulled the right cover off and it looks fine. Cam chain and adjuster intact, everything else fine. I pulled the left cover and same thing. As far as I can tell it's fine. Should I continue on with pulling the whole engine apart?? Maybe it's something to do with the piston or rings? Thanks for any help anyone can offer

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/28/08 at 17:38:20

I don't know if this has anything to do with it but when I started it last night, it died while warming up. I couldn't get it to start for anything and killed the battery. Once I got it charged and finally started, I had to rev it real high to keep it running, it was spewing a little black smoke and sounded real bad. After about 2-3 minutes of that it started running fine. I made it home and then back to work today and it was acting normal. Whatever broke, broke when I was heading home today

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by Gort on 07/28/08 at 19:29:33

First thing I would do is use a compression gauge to do a compression check of the cylinder.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/08 at 20:58:55

compression check
pull the valve covers to see if you dropped a valve
pull header
pull the carb

my guess, you lost a ring. hope you didn't drop a valve.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/28/08 at 21:02:14

Alright thanks that gives me somewhere to start. Gonna try to calm my nerves a little and start narrowing it down I hope

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/28/08 at 22:04:54

Alright well here's what I've found so far -- Almost couldn't get the spark plug out but when I did, noticed the end was messed up. Looked down into the exhaust and yep, the right valve (viewed from the front of the bike) is missing it's bottom! So...anyone know if I'm going to be able to fix this or will I still need to pull the engine apart to see??

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by Gort on 07/28/08 at 22:32:41

393972606F656C606F010 wrote:

Well guy, I hate to tell you this but if I understand you correctly you've got a broken valve. From what you've described it sounds like the stem is broken, which means the rest of the valve probably fell down into the cylinder. That would explain the damage to the end of the spark plug. If a valve breaks and falls into the cylinder while the piston is going up and down, this usually does serious damage to the engine. Whatever you do, don't try to crank the engine over. You need to pull the head off the engine and have a look at the head and cylinder. But remember, all is not lost. If your engine is gone, used ones are available and thats a lot cheaper than a new bike or a professional rebuild.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/28/08 at 22:38:26

Ya that's what I thought. Well I stopped it pretty much immediately when it broke so I guess I'll pull that head and hope for the best

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by YonuhAdisi on 07/29/08 at 10:19:23

If the piston is damaged, you can get a new piston and rings and you can replace your valves. With any luck the cylinder can be re-honed if it isn't damaged too badly.

After you pull the head and clear out the broken valve if the piston is broke, go ahead and pull the cylinder and piston and carefully turn the engine by hand listening for any noise. If you did shut it down in time the bottom end may still be good and you will only need a top end re-build which is a hell of a lot cheaper than a full re-build and not nearly as difficult.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/29/08 at 13:34:49

I'm going to try to start pulling it apart today after work and see what I find. Another question, can I pull it apart enough with the engine in the frame? I've already had to replace the head cap seal so I'm familiar with it up to there. I also feel like I've read through the Clymers manual a dozen times, just don't know where exactly to start I guess

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by T Mack 1 on 07/29/08 at 13:45:01

I have read that if you take all the mounting bolts out and let it drop lower into the frame you can squeeze the head clear of the very long bolts/studs used to hold it in place.

In other words, it may be better to take it out....... get a strong friend. I read that it's only about 110 pounds but... it's a bugger to handle in a cramped space. ..... trust me....

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/30/08 at 19:47:07

Just wanted to let you guys know I'm still here. Haven't had time to dig into the bike until about 45 min's ago. Pulled off the carb, head cover and am getting ready to pull the head. Probably not going to have time until fri now as I don't have enough light in the garage. Printing some pages from Clymers now to assist me..I'm really dreading messing with the cam chain and timing and all that. I consider myself pretty talented mechanically but timing scares me (doesn't the unknown always). Thanks for all the input you guys have been giving me and please check back once I start tearing into this thing in case I scream for help :-O

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/30/08 at 19:51:35

Maybe it's too early to ask as this project is going to take me awhile..but I'm curious what may have caused this problem so I don't duplicate it IF I actually get the ole girl running again. Most likely just a part failure or may I have done something to cause it?

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by Sandy Koocanusa on 07/30/08 at 19:56:26

Seems like they'd glue a piece of chicken wire or something in there below the valves to catch them when they break. Kind of a safety net between the valve and the piston. It wouldn't be any great engineering feat, would it?

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/30/08 at 19:59:22

Ya that would be nice. The suspense is killing me! I wanna see how much damage I've got but don't feel comfortable pulling it out in the dark...wait that didn't sound righ

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/30/08 at 21:11:15

When I start removing the camshaft sprocket bolts do I really need to be at TDC? The manual says so but it doesn't seem like it would matter as I'm pulling the whole thing apart..or am I going to mess everything up if it isn't at TDC when I pull it apart??

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 07/30/08 at 22:11:23

TDC will lesson the pressure on the bolts when you take them off.

otherwise no, just set it to TDC before you put the cam back on.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/31/08 at 10:24:32

Got it apart last night. Valve is obviously shot. The area by the valve in the valve cover? is chewed up a little..piston is shot..but the walls look just fine. Hopefully there isn't any other damage. So, is Clymers right and a professional should do the valve replacement or is this something you guys have done yourself?

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/08 at 11:25:42

Personally, I'd have a pro rebuild the head.

Or pick up a used one.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/31/08 at 11:47:37

That's what I was thinking. Probably gonna be better to just pick one up seeing as several of the parts are going to have to be replaced anyways. Can I replace the piston myself though or am I going to have to take the whole engine to someone?

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/08 at 11:50:44

That you can do yourself.

And I'd take the cylinder out and get it treated.

I think it was savage greg who got it carbided or something.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 07/31/08 at 18:51:44

Here we have it. Sorry the pix are crappy, I just took them with my phone really quick. Looks like it's going to be a new piston and valve...gonna replace the cam chain too I guess since I'm this far in. Anyone think that cylinder head is going to fly with those little chunks chewed up? Guess I could see what the shop says about it when I get a price on replacing the valve but that cylinder head is ExPeNsIvE! Actually I'd better take a closer look cause it appears it might be chewed up right where the valves seat :-/http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/cylinderhead.jpghttp://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/piston.jpghttp://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/piston1.jpg

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by YonuhAdisi on 07/31/08 at 19:17:51

Definitely check the bottom end for pieces of piston. Unfortunately the piston is aluminum alloy so a magnet won't work to fish them out.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/31/08 at 21:15:24

What causes such death & destruction? Dang, what a mess. That head is done, IMO, a used one wouldnt be thatmuch $$, surely.
How fast were you running when it started making the big noises? If the cylinder walls arent messed up, Id say you got lucky. Looks like a lot of hard stuff was bouncing around in there a while.. You deffinitely have to pull that engine & open the sides & rock it around till you find all the little pieces of piston down in there.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 08/01/08 at 06:18:36

Who knows? I'm hoping someone has some knowledge on what may have caused it so I can avoid it once I finish the rebuild..but, if it's just part failure I guess I got unlucky. Was only traveling about 35-40 when it happened. It was a slight pop, the sound of something bouncing around inside and almost immediately lost compression. I pulled the clutch and got off to the side of the road. I was heading uphill on a narrow 2 lane bridge. Once I finally got it pushed up the hill without getting run over I proceeded into the 7 mile walk home. Guess it could have been worse though

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by T Mack 1 on 08/01/08 at 10:04:06

What caused it...... one posibility is valve adjustment.

For reference, here on the east side of PA, I got a full used head assembly, cam & all, for $200.

The first oversized piston kit (+0.5 mm .... or was it +0.05 :-?) runs around $100 +/- some. Take note: the Suzuki OS Piston kit does not include a wrist pin, that's around $12 to $14 extra.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by ed daugherty on 08/01/08 at 20:00:00

you will definitely want that boy bored out! looks can be deceiving. I would take the head and cylinder to a shop and have a mechanic look at it. you may get lucky and just need it to be honed. good luck. has anyone ever had one ported and polished? we used to do that with dirt bikes...i would love to hear from someone who has done it!

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 08/02/08 at 14:51:06

Well I plan on taking it to a machine shop to get it rehoned but starting to think I might want to bore it out bigger and upsize the piston. Anyone do this? port and polish sounds good too. Now just need to find a darn head + cover...

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 08/09/08 at 08:56:26

Alright so I've been looking and looking. Still nothing, but, does anyone know what year Savage parts are interchangeable?..and if the s40 parts are also the same? Just wondering in case I come across something other than a 96 Savage. Also, by searching the schematics on Bikebandit I'm finding all the cylinder head assemblies throughout the years look just about the same. Thanks.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/09/08 at 16:17:42

The guts are the same, trannys changed, but all the cams, pistons, cranks & rods & such are the same. Used parts are out there. There are even whole engines, as opposed to engines with holes.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by Charon on 08/09/08 at 16:59:48

On the bright side, the dropped valve didn't lock up the engine and cause you to crash.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 08/12/08 at 18:06:57

Alright for anyone who cares or is following along..I finally got a little time to pull the engine out of the bike today. Was MUCH easier than I anticipated..now as long as I can find the parts and get it back together correctly I should be back on 2 wheels! Luckily the bottom end looks completely perfect..as far as I can see. Now shrapnel in the case and everything turns over by hand just fine. I can see a lot of the guts and they look real good. Hope there isn't anything else hiding once I finally find a head+cover....http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/engine.jpg

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 09/27/08 at 06:33:22

Just an update...I've ordered about every gasket, o-ring, washer, cam chain, blah blah blah...got the new cylinder re-honed and now just waiting for the shop to bead blast the cylinder and head on monday. As soon as the new piston rings arrive I shall start reassembly Sooo, anyone have any tips or important suggestion before I start this process?? I've read through all the tech posts I could over and over and have gone over the Clymers manual several times. Am I missing something or is reassembly really not that difficult? Thanks to all that have helped so far.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 09/27/08 at 07:53:44

Don't worry about it bud, follow the clymers and you'll be ok.
If you find anything you don't understand, we're standing by... almost.
;D

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/27/08 at 10:21:05

Imagine the ordeal if this was a Tupperware wearing 4 cylinder!

Glad you are winning.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by YonuhAdisi on 09/27/08 at 11:32:09

3B3B70626D676E626D030 wrote:

I also posted this in your market place thread.

Assembly is pretty well straight forward and simple. The tricky part is getting the cam and gear in. But if you wrestle with it a few minutes it will go in. Just remember to have the piston at TDC and you line up the cam timing marks level with the top of the head. The orientation of the lobes will have the intake lobe just about to open the intake valve which is what you want because the starter will turn the engine bringing the piston down to suck in the fuel.

For quite a while I had it where both lobes were pointing down and didn't think anything about it until I installed Lancer's performance cam. I had all kinds of trouble until I actually looked at the timing marks. I had the cam severally retarded until I figured it out.

The timing marks are a scribed line that runs straight across the very front of the cam. Make sure those are line up parallel with the top of the head and you will be timed correctly as long as the piston is at TDC.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/27/08 at 12:19:58

How copuld the be no schrapnel in the bottom? The piston had chunks knocked out of it. Where did it go?

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 09/27/08 at 16:38:48

Actually, there were some obvious big chunks that I fished out. They pretty much almost fit the missing parts in the piston exactly. To be sure (hopefully) that I get every last pc, I've picked up a few gallons of oil and I'm hoping to somehow fill the case with a litte, pour it out of the right side whole...repeatedly while watching what comes out. After several times of this I should hopefully be ok right or anyone have any other ideas besides cracking the bottom end! I'm gonna hope that since I was able to find those big chunks that match pretty close that I'll be able to notice any other fragment coming out until it seems perfect. Opinions??

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by T Mack 1 on 09/27/08 at 16:52:50

Flushing will never get everything out. There is a engine pictures thread here. I posted some pict's of the case split. Look at them. You will see that there are nook & krannies that the oil will never drain from.

For my rebuild, I opted to split the case to inspect. Splitting the case was easy, inspecting was tediuos....

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 09/30/08 at 08:39:50

Ok so...if the consensus is that I split the case, I really don't want to do all of this rebuilding and leave out that vital part. So, is it really that easy? Hell, I've already made this far. Oh btw, I read a post about replacing the cam chain without removing the clutch basket a while back. I don't know if someone already said this, but I WAS able to wiggle the gear right out of there like someone had mentioned. Very easy. Mine is a 95 and had plenty of room. So back to splitting the case.... :-/

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 09/30/08 at 11:24:22

I have a '96 and the clutch basket is definitely bigger than the gear.

And yours is a 5 speed? I thought you could only 'rock' the gears if it was a 4 speed.

My worry would be if any of that crap got in the bearings.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by YonuhAdisi on 09/30/08 at 11:31:44

To get the cam chain off of the FireLizard, I just had loosen the clutch basket enough to pull it forward just enough to wiggle the gear out. Didn't even have to pull the clutch basket nut all the way off.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 07S40rider on 09/30/08 at 11:49:53

676160627F7962630D0 wrote:

Sandy you crack me up man.

88Pagan, I am curious to find out why this happened as well. If you ever figure that out let us know. My guess is just metal fatigue.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/06/08 at 17:37:27

Ok, soooo, I attempted to remove the clutch nut without using the special clutch holder tool. I DID get it off, but also broke one of the flanges off of it (the protruding part the bolts go into). So that just set me back a couple more days but the new piece should arrive tomorrow or wed. My question is, do I have to pay the $30 they want for the special tool or does anyone have any tricks to get that nut torqued correctly without it?? I guess it wouldn't hurt to just buy the tool but if all goes right, I won't have this thing this far torn down for a looooong time. Thanks folks

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 10/06/08 at 18:37:44

Did you try the penny trick? Stick a penny between the gear teeth when you are torquing the nut.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/06/08 at 19:52:15

Ya the penny trick worked perfectly. I'm referring to keeping the clutch basket from spinning when taking off the nut that holds it. In the clymers manual page 152, diagram 15 shows the tool in use. I already have it off, just wondering if I can torque it correctly when I reassemble without buying that tool.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 10/06/08 at 20:07:10

use the same trick, penny goes in the opposite side as before.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/06/08 at 21:30:35

Verslagen..are we talking about the same nut? The one that gets you access to the cam chain came off fine with the penny trick. I'm talking about the nut that holds the clutch on..the one that goes in the middle of this pic. That hub won't stop turning without the special tool or a trick right?http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/clutch.jpg

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 10/06/08 at 22:01:44

Right the one in the center of that basket you are holding.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by YonuhAdisi on 10/06/08 at 22:08:31

Verslagen, I don't know how you are using a penny to hold the clutch basket still, because I understand what Pagan is saying. When you try to remove that particular nut, the clutch basket will spin independently of the gears.

What I did pagan was ran two of the spring bolts back in and used a screw driver to lock it in place against my work bench. This is not really the best idea because you can cause damage to the bolts. But it worked for me. If I recall correctly, it doesn't really require that much torque and with the lock washer on it keeps it from backing out.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/06/08 at 22:19:28

Alright cool that's what I was thinking. Unfortunately that's exactly how I took it off and broke one of the studs. Looks like it says 36-51 ft#'s on that nut so that will probably work for reinstalling

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by verslagen1 on 10/06/08 at 22:37:30

If you didn't pry against it, it shouldn't have broke.
So it was broke already and you dodged that bullet.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/07/08 at 16:13:46

Alright well I guess I need to do this right because I don't want to do this again. Looks like I'll be spending about $150 for new valves and seals...and another $110 for the labor. This sound good or bad to anyone? Verslagen, you're close to me...the shop I was going to take it to is in Anaheim (Q+E Machine). Any other places you know of that may be better and/or cheaper?

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/09/08 at 21:04:47

When splitting the case, Clymers says to use three-bond no.1216 when sealing it and reassembling. I ordered what I thought was the right stuff from bikebandit but the stuff that arrived says Suzuki silicone gasket 1207b sp-3k. Anyone know from experience if this is the right stuff? There are only two products on the site that look correct and neither is called three-bond. Thanks folks

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/10/08 at 07:57:57

I think someone dropped that Penny & had some trouble. I diodnt like the idea & used a folded peice of leather. Worked great, no chance of dropping it & having it slip into the guts somewhere.

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by kennycreed on 10/10/08 at 08:21:16

to remove the clutch basket nut I used a black and decker 12volt impact driver(runs of battery with crock clips or cig lighter) with a big socket on it. You can stop the basket turning with just your hand on top of it as the driver delivers all the tork round the nut same for nut when renewing cam chain,,cheers

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by 88pagan on 10/15/08 at 13:58:19

Well, finally got a little time today to split the case. It went real smooth so far. Hopefully it goes back together just as smooth. The head is at the shop getting new valves and seals. Thanks Verslagen and T Mack for telling me to split the case. Here's a pic that gives you an idea of what was left after I thought I flushed it pretty well. Anyone else going through this ordeal may want to go the distance and make sure it's perfect before reassembly. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/DSC02266.jpg

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by steely on 10/15/08 at 15:15:38

Holy crap! That stuff would not have been good floating around the inside of the case! :o

Title: Re: Anyone have any good news for me??
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/16/08 at 18:18:25

When I did the cam chain I used a 1/2" impact to bust that nut out & used it to run it up, too. Then I torqued it, locking gears up using a belt, because I am not comfortable using a penny atwixt the gears.

There IS a hard coating you could have done in the cylinder. I know someone here has done it & likes it.

There are inexpensive compressors avail;ab'e. & a 1/2" impact can be had for cheap. Even a small tank on a 100 psi compressor would be okay, since all the bike needs is a little dose of powwer here & there to make the wrenching go easier. A quick Pop on the rear axle & its loose or tight, the clutch basket didint take 3 seconds of TRigger Time on the impact. Pawn shops sometimes have little compressors someone used for a big drywall project, then sold.