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Message started by Jerry Eichenberger on 07/20/08 at 11:48:53

Title: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 07/20/08 at 11:48:53

Folks -

Lots has been written about the wisdom of not being in nuetral at a stop, so you cvan make a quicker getaway if needed. A story to bring home the point:

A few years ago my wife was in her car, stopped to make a left turn, yielding to on-coming traffic. She was driving, our daughter was riding the the front pax seat, daughter's high school boyfriend was behind the driver in the rear seat.

While still stopped, my wife was checking her "six" as she does, and noticed a dump trunk barreling full speed up her tailpipe.

She slammed on the gas, got going about 15 mph before the impact - the dump trunk was going at least 55 mph.

Crash broke the car in half over the rear wheels, and the EMTs had to use the "jaws" to open the doors, and it blew out every window in the car.

The only injury was to the kid in the back - the EMT put a Bandaid over a superficial cut on his hand where a piece of flying glass made a tiny cut.

My wife's vigilance, and starting to move forward saved their bacon. Remember, impact G forces increase at the square of the increase in impact velocity - anything you do to lessen the velocity of the impacting vehicle is a tremendous help. Moving forward lessens the relative velocities, hence reduces impact forces.

You can't do much if you're sitting in neutral.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Demin on 07/20/08 at 12:12:40

Yep,we STRESS/DRILL that in the msf classes. ;)

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by mick on 07/20/08 at 14:18:57

Jerry, Your wife made a very smart move.
I can verify the theory ,during my very short boxing career (in the army) getting hit on the chin was not nearly so bad if you were already moving away from it. :-X

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by forrest on 07/20/08 at 14:34:13

I always stay in first, unless there is a line of cars behind me and I know the light will take a while.
There was a video floating around of a guy at a light on his street bike and you could see him trying to get into first for about 3 seconds before the car plowed into him from behind. Too bad instinct said to get moving vs. bailing out.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by rigidchop on 07/20/08 at 14:42:39

on the older bikes, it was stressed that putting it in neutral would lengthen clutch life, not so much with todays oils. so keeping it in gear won't hurt the bike and may increase your chances of staying out of an accident. i keep mine in gear, pretty much at all stops, not too many lights where i live (lots of dumb drivers though)

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by verslagen1 on 07/20/08 at 15:48:02

the life taken by holding it in isn't the disks but the springs. Springs will take a set, so the longer you hold them fully compressed the quicker they will creep towards that length.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 07/21/08 at 05:36:53

I think some of the old adages about the wisdom of being in neutral comes from the days of older manual transmission cars.

I've always driven manual cars, and I remember 40+ years ago as a young driver being told by a race team mechanic that keeping the clutch depressed at stops was very wearing on the clutch throw out bearing, let alone your leg muscles on those old clutches that took a lot of force to depress.

That was probably true - but motorcycle clutches aren't built the same way as an older car's was.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by 4carbcorvair on 07/21/08 at 05:55:10

I always stay in first. Except for yesterday. At a light I thought I would try sitting there in N. Takes a few extra seconds to take off after the light turned green. Convinced me to always use 1st.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by mornhm on 07/21/08 at 07:28:41

I always stay in first, I've moved forward a couple of feet before when I thought the car behind me wasn't going to get stopped. I think it has saved me from getting bumped a couple of times. Plus who wants the extra hassle of switching to neutral and then back to first. If my arm is so tired that I can't hold the clutch in for a couple of minutes, it's time to get off for a stretch anyway.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by flcruzr on 07/21/08 at 08:17:22

Great Point! I try to always stay in 1st gear but sometimes without realizing I look down and i'm in neutral, not good but i'm trying to stop this bad habit. This post just helped me in making sure I stay in 1st! Thanks!

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by serowbot on 07/21/08 at 10:27:11

I'm quilty of sitting in nuetral...lazy mostly...
gonna' try to break the habit, thanks.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Ian on 07/21/08 at 10:33:45

also leave a car length in front of you and stop at an angle so you can lane-split to keep from being sandwiched. a brake light modulator or flick your front brake lever a few times might help also.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/21/08 at 10:38:35

When I have oncoming that looks like a potential "Left Turn" on me, I flip the High Low switch a few times. At a stop, when I see someone coming up behind, I squeeze the brake lever a few times, but not at regular intervals. I sit in neutral once I see its safe. I have no probs making it go in gear. In an emergency, I wouldnt worry about grinding stuff, Id get it in & be Goooone.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by bill67 on 07/21/08 at 10:58:53

If your in gear at stop some one hits you from behind,It will knock you back which will pull the gas back and you lose grip on the clutch,and bike is gone you on the ground.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by mornhm on 07/21/08 at 11:48:18

565D58580203340 wrote:

If your in gear at stop some one hits you from behind,It will knock you back which will pull the gas back and you lose grip on the clutch,and bike is gone you on the ground.

Bill,

Do you just like telling stories or did someone tell you this is what would happen?

It takes a lot more time for the engine to respond to a change in throttle than it does for a typical collision to occur. If anyone wants to see what will happen when you're stopped and let out the clutch with the engine at idle, pull up to a stop - your right hand is holding the brake lever remember - now "pop" the clutch and try to roll on the throttle. Try not to drop it when it goes bump and the engine dies. Let's all use Bill's savage to try this.

If someone found themself lying on the ground after their MC was hit from behind, it was because the car knocked the MC out from under them, or they let go of the bars when stopped, not because they were knocked back, rolling on the throttle and the engine pulled the MC out from under them. You don't get knocked back in a collision unless you get hit from the front.

Bill,

Question #2 - have you ever tried to slide backwards off of a Savage? Especially one with the front brake applied and was hit from behind - causing the back end to come up? That bump up to the pillion is going to make it real tough.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by SimonTuffGuy on 07/21/08 at 11:48:25

5D56535309083F0 wrote:

If your in gear at stop some one hits you from behind,It will knock you back which will pull the gas back and you lose grip on the clutch,and bike is gone you on the ground.

If someone hits me from behind, I'm not going to be worried about what happens to the bike. I'm going to worry about being alive and ok...

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by serowbot on 07/21/08 at 12:12:46

Gotta' agree there, if you're hit from behind the bike is going forward no matter what you do with the gas or brake...
Hurts to think about it....
I do flick the brake light on and off when I see a car coming up behind me, seems like it might help. Leaving a little space in front seems a good idea too.

also...if you're gonna' try to squirt forward out of the way, I think it would be best to angle right......right would get you off the road or at least in the same general direction of cross traffic...

(instinct makes you go left,..ever try to do a right-handed dounut?..we always try to lay down a bike on the left) strange but true...

probably coundn't think fast enough anyway...

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Spiff on 07/21/08 at 12:36:21

697F68756D78756E1A0 wrote:

Leaving a little space in front seems a good idea too.

Better yet, don't pull up to the center of the vehicle in front of you, but a little bit off center to the right or left. Then turn your front wheel left (if you pull up left) or right (if you pull up right).

The idea is to give you an "escape route" i.e., a clear path to head to in case you see a vehicle behind you that is not stopping.

You're in first gear, looking at your rear-view mirrors. If you're about to be smushed, you gun the throttle and let out the clutch. Because of your off-center positioning and your already turned front wheel, you zoom out to the side of the vehicle and the cager in front of you takes the impact.

The beauty of this maneuver is that you've pre-arranged it so that when you panic because of the rapidly approaching vehicle from behind, your instincts automatically kick in (Get out of here FAST!) and no thinking is required.

Spiff

Edited to add: I now see that Ian said something similar in post #11 ... but I had more detail!!! :)

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Charon on 07/23/08 at 06:59:27

This is a long-standing issue. Way back in the '60s I was stationed in England. When a new driver took their licence test (car) they were required, at every stop light, to put the car in neutral, release the clutch, and set the hand brake. The logic: If bumped, the foot comes off the clutch, and if the car is in gear it rolls under power and at least momentarily not under control. I don't know how they handled automatic transmissions, as there were virtually none there.

Just this month I was reading an article on motorcycle training in England (Motorcycle Consumer News August 2008), said to be considerably better than the MSF. At stops, motorcyclists are expected to sit, motorcycle in neutral, clutch released, right foot on ground and left foot in position to shift into First, holding the bike in position with the front brake. Again no mention made of automatic machines, such as modern scooters and most mopeds.

I have done the thing both ways, in cars and on motorcycles, and I cannot say which is "better". When I drove a semi I usually used the neutral and clutch released technique, partly because of the stiff clutch springs and partly to give "red-light runners" a little more time to be clear before I started the truck moving. To the best of my knowledge there have been no controlled studies, and I suspect it would be exceedingly difficult to design one that didn't get anyone hurt.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by daweise1 on 07/23/08 at 07:50:26

This may be a little off topic, but it was something I thought I was doing wrong.... Those of you that stay in first and hold the clutch, how often are you having to adjust the clutch cable for "play?"

I have noticed that I have about 1/4 of the clutch lever was just slack before the clutch engages... As a newer rider, I thought I was holding the clutch in too long and too often thus streching the cable. Really not a problem to adjust, but the bike is a 2004 with 8700 miles now, and the first owner told me he replaced the clutch cable once alreadly...... :-/

Why am I posting this here??? Because I was shifting to nuetral trying not to hold the clutch in for that long period of time....

P.S. I have the Ohio MSF class and road testing this Friday through Sunday, so if anyone wants to know what they say, I can post it.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by mornhm on 07/23/08 at 08:40:54

292C3A28243E287C4D0 wrote:

I've got about 10,000 miles in this year so far - about average for me, I've been commuting since 2004 and after initial bike set up and break in, I've never adjusted a clutch cable.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by verslagen1 on 07/23/08 at 08:48:45

ditto

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by 4carbcorvair on 07/23/08 at 09:31:17

Got behind a Hardley yesterday while driving my wifes car. Guy put it in nuetral at the red light. When the light changed, 2 or 3 cars to my right went through the light before I did because he was having to put his Hardley in first. I'm going to keep leaving it in first at lights.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/23/08 at 21:35:59

Mine goes into 1st in under 2 secs, effortlessly. I dont sit in 1st. Neutral serves me well. I try to stay attentive, & sometimes realize I was snuck up on..then, I do the "self talk" & try to watch the 6 better.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by Robertomoe on 07/24/08 at 00:11:50

I've never had a problem with shifting into first at a stop except when I was new and occasionally when it buggers up and it wont engage. To make the timing easier, I watch for the yellow light for the opposite direction if I'm close enough or wait until the light turns green when I'm behind other cars. Plenty of time to shift.

This Harley rider must have had either a very very very heavy bike or half a brain. If you're trying to beat traffic, you can keep your left appendages on the bike. Shifting should only take the 1/4 of a second that you need to pull the clutch and stomp.

Taking what Ive heard about being able to escape and understanding the virtue in that, I just check my mirrors every few seconds. If a car is coming from behind, I shift into first until the car is no longer behind me or is stopped. Otherwise, it stays in neutral. On longer rides, I like to take little on-the-bike stretch break so I'm not holding the same position the entire ride. The Savage is also low enough that I can stand full up and keep the bike up with my legs so I can try to shake the monkey butt.

And Bill is right, in a way. You wont necessarily move backwards relative to the ground, but your bike will move forwards faster than you. Since your body isn't strapped to the bike, it's a separate system and has its own inertia. The bike will move forward but you will stay in position until something moves you forward (back of the seat, seat friction, handlebar grip). What bill is saying is that as the bike moves forward under you and you try to prevent yourself from ending up on the pavement, your arms will suddenly go taut and your hands will come into full contact with the grips, likely pulling your hands off the levers and rotating the throttle.

Thats why the MSF stresses that you keep your wrist in a lowered position. If you're at the top of the throttle, you can twist it open as you try to hang on.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/24/08 at 03:47:57

The bike will move forward but you will stay in position until something moves you forward (back of the seat, seat friction, handlebar grip). You forgot grill of the car,,

I am BAD about that lowered wrist position thing. I wish you would expound on it a bit more. I already understand it for riding big powerful stuff, cuz a guy handed me his suzi 1100 years ago & it took me to the end of my arms, which opened the throttle even more. If the wrist had been lowered, I could have rolled off when it hit the power band & shot out from under me.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by mornhm on 07/24/08 at 05:36:17

485751564B4C7D4D7D45575B10220 wrote:

I am BAD about that lowered wrist position thing. I wish you would expound on it a bit more.

Robertomoe is right, and has a good point. As far as sitting at low rpm, the Savage is going to have as much or more torque as any MC. If you don't have control of the MC - or have it pointed where you want to go, start rolling on the throttle, and then pop the clutch you are going to get undesired results. It's just good practice to keep your wrist "low" - wrapped around the throttle, so if you pull straight back, you roll off rather than on the throttle.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/24/08 at 05:43:57

I gotta work on that. Thats okay, Ive got 18,000 miles on it & havent crashed it. learning techniques to make sure that continues will be fun.
I did drop it, due to turning on sloping wet grass & the front slipped out. I held it up as well as I could as it went down & was standing next to it when it was all over. zero damage.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by sockmonkeygirl on 07/24/08 at 13:35:41

310B0F0D0C3617040425171B620 wrote:

[quote author=5D56535309083F0 link=1216579733/0#13 date=1216663133] If your in gear at stop some one hits you from behind,It will knock you back which will pull the gas back and you lose grip on the clutch,and bike is gone you on the ground.

If someone hits me from behind, I'm not going to be worried about what happens to the bike. I'm going to worry about being alive and ok...[/quote]

...and able to thump another day. ;)

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by rokrover on 07/24/08 at 14:10:23

I heard of a fatality caused by being stopped in gear at the lights when the clutch cable parted at the ferrule just as the rider was gunning the throttle. He was launched into the cross traffic with dire results. This was back in the '60's when lots of things would break on ye olde Brit iron. There are rare instances posted here of the clutch throwout cam breaking so you never can be sure.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by YonuhAdisi on 07/24/08 at 17:24:05

223F3B223F263522500 wrote:

That is why a pre-ride inspection should always be performed. Such an inspection would have revealed the state of his clutch cable.

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by verslagen1 on 07/24/08 at 21:49:33

I watch my 6 until one of those lethal weapons comes to a complete stop, then if it's a long light I may put her in neutral. ;D

Title: Re: Sitting in nuetral at a stop
Post by mornhm on 07/25/08 at 05:45:58

Those of you who wait until a car is stopped behind you to go into neutral - have you ever watched the eyes of people who are waiting to go at a light. Around here they watch the light. So ... if you have trouble getting it into first ... they aren't looking at you. A lot of people watch the cross light to go yellow then red, they don't watch for their own green. This is especially true if the cross traffic has cleared the light. I guess the idea is that the whole line starts together.

This has led to rear end collisions when someone doesn't start up right away. Wouldn't be as bad as someone slamming into you when they don't stop, but it would probably still ruin your day.