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Message started by Gary On A Savage on 07/11/08 at 11:50:17

Title: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/11/08 at 11:50:17

With gas prices as they are I've been doing some research on MPG improvement for my cages. Came across this interesting site (water4gas.com). Now, I know the first thought that comes to you mind is SCAM. But, after doing some research on the site and the ideas, I've discovered it's not. So, I bought the "book" (actually, consider it more of a "membership" since you get multiple online books that are updated as new information is release, access to the forum and other useful information). VERY INTERESTING AND USEFUL READING. I recommend if you want to research some changes you can do to improve you MPG.

Anyway, to the point of this post, one of the items is a "Water Vaporizor". The concept is not new, it's just a very simple water injection system. If you are not familar with them, they've been around for a long time and were extensively used on WW2 aircraft. I basically sucks water vapor into with your air/gas mix, which cools the engine, delays the spark (higher octane), and gives you more HP overall. The problems being, they are expensive and large. The site gives a very simple, cheap, but effective solution.

The water4gas solution is a sealed quart jar (mason jar) with water in it (leaving a space at the top for air). A tube runs from an intake vacuum through thru the lid to the airspace at the top. Another tube runs from an adjustable valve (sprinkler bubbler or other such cheap device) to the bottom of the water. The adjustable valve controls the vacuum suction allowing you to adjust the amount of vapor that pulled into your intake. This allows you to adjust the vapor to your application. Below is a picture of the device.

I'm interested to know if anyone has done anything like this. I'm planning on building one of these and connecting it to my Honda Shadow (it's running really lean). Then I'd like to try the Suzuki after it's back together and running. I'll let you know how things turn out. Maybe later I'll try an auto.

http://www.gkhdev.com/pics/vaporizor.jpg

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/11/08 at 11:54:09

A couple other sites that talk about the same thing:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me3.html

http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/water_injection/local_copies/goodman/059-046-01.htm

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Methanol-Injection!/article_info.html

http://www.eagle-research.com/fuelsav/win.html

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Keith_T on 07/11/08 at 11:55:32

All I know about water injection is that I was talking with an owner of a 1969 GTO back in about 1987 and he said he had a water injection system on his car. He showed me a box under the hood and some piping. Not sure exactly what it did though.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by wrenchbender on 07/11/08 at 12:09:30

CMT's Chopper Challange episode 108? (about two weeks ago) featured a 'LaLa Land' bike built using this technology. The episode dedicated quite a bit of time to the install of a commercial unit the designer was trying to get exposure for. Unfortunately...the end result never made it past the editing room floor.

I seem to recall JC Whitney (Warsholski & Co) selling this concept back when Nixon was President. ::)

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/11/08 at 12:37:20

Water injection was used on WW2 fighters who needed a burst of speed to get away from the enemy. It was used under these circumstances and was not a system for continuous use, because it did not work well except for power bursts.

It works by cooling the intake mixture and thus shrinking its volume, thus allowing more fuel mixture to be sucked into the cylinder. More mixture means more power.
Starting in the '50s, water injection systems were widely available for motor vehicles, from auto parts stores and catalogs like JC Whitney. They were no more than a water bottle with a tube going into the air cleaner or intake manifold via a fitting with a spray nozzle. Some kits had an adjustable valve to regulate flow. Some kits didn't even have the nozzle and just provided a hose with a T-fitting to be spliced into a convenient engine vacuum line.

None of these lived up to their claims, and indeed were found to decrease power and efficiency. Reports of cylinder and intake manifold rust were common. The problems were differing demands for water volume and flow rate, depending on a variety of engine conditions such as temperature, RPM, vacuum conditions changing with engine conditions, and so on. For example, vacuum is high when you let off the throttle and the vehicle is slowing down, yet at this time water from the source is going into the engine at the greatest flow rate at the worst possible moment. ( Remember the fighter planes only using it at full throttle for a burst of get away speed?)

Some years ago Holley sold an advanced water injection system using electronic controls to attempt to meter the introduction of water and thus solve some of the variable waterflow demands created by all the many different changes in engine/combustion conditions, during the course of everyday driving. It was not successful and was discontinued

To this day you will still see small businesses selling the old style primitive water injection systems, some with electronic control added. They prey the un-informed.

One has to ask, don't you think the auto makers would have refined and incorporated this un-patented, 60 year old idea in their vehicles by now
if it really worked, as a marketing advantage?

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Charon on 07/11/08 at 13:49:04

I have read that this concept was used on farm tractors between the Wars. The technique involved a second carburetor metering water, and linked to the first so both opened proportionally. The water was said to reduce the temperature of the incoming charge and to reduce detonation from "tractor fuel". When the charge burns in the cylinder the water turns to steam and expands, adding "push." The benefits, if any, were small and usually the second carburetor is a chunk of rust, if it is even still present.

Water injection is also used on jet engines. It allows extra fuel to be injected while keeping exhaust turbine temperatures survivable. If you have seen any footage of military (or civilian) jets making huge clouds of black smoke on takeoff roll, you have seen water injection in action. Usually, when the takeoff is complete and the need for high power is past, the water is jettisoned overboard so as not to carry its weight through the whole flight. In cold climates methanol was added to the water as antifreeze.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by ronhawk62 on 07/11/08 at 14:45:08

I bought one of these water injecters from JC Whitney many years ago. I put it on a Plymouth Duster that I was driving about 200 miles a day. I was trying everything that I could to keep expenses down. The vapor injecter was a total waste of money, it actually made the car get slightly worse gas mileage. Take my advice, save your money.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by LANCER on 07/11/08 at 15:36:15

Water injection used on WW2 aircraft was for high altitude performance, same as supercharging, with the end being that extra oxygen was needed at those high altitudes where the air is thinner and oxygen is in short supply. Water injection or supercharging...same result.
If this were really a beneficial technology don't you think the auto makers of the entire world would be using it to improve milage, power and efficiency since it is a government mandated thing??? You bet you you bippy they would...every swinging ______ of them would be doing it.
If you really want to try it out then there is a fairly inexpensive way to do it. These companies charge in the $200-400 range for their system. You can get a Dial-a-jet for $75, which does a very fine job of making a fuel/air mist already. Just hook one up and install a water jug instead of tapping into the carb bowl.
Then you will find out if it works or not.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Todd Perry on 07/11/08 at 16:24:44

Quote:

Water injection is also used on jet engines. It allows extra fuel to be injected while keeping exhaust turbine temperatures survivable. If you have seen any footage of military (or civilian) jets making huge clouds of black smoke on takeoff roll, you have seen water injection in action. Usually, when the takeoff is complete and the need for high power is past, the water is jettisoned overboard so as not to carry its weight through the whole flight. In cold climates methanol was added to the water as antifreeze.

Yeah, I've worked on one of those, actually - in my case, it was a turboprop (Metro/SA-227) aircraft and the AWI system was used for short-field takeoff performance. Did nothing for fuel efficiency of the aircraft, though. However, considering we're not even talking the same basic technology (turbine vs IC engine), that's not very helpful, really.

Good luck with this, Gary - I know I'll be interested in what you come up with. Certainly worth experimenting with!

Personally, I ran out and bought a second magnetic fuel line electron randomizer the other day. Just one of them wasn't working all that well and when I called the money-back-guarantee line, they told me they supposedly work better in pairs....and at $89 each, what a steal! ;D

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by barry68v10 on 07/11/08 at 18:45:47

You can make your own system with a fish tank bubbler and a vacuum line. Increasing humidity (water content in intake air) CAN increase fuel economy IF your engine design and operating parameters fall into the right category. Using straight ethanol is really a very similar concept. Water is essentially "ash" that is left over when you burn hydrogen. In order to benefit from the increased octane, you need higher than normal compression ratios so the steam can be produced before the exhaust valve opens. Not likely to work that way on most modern engine designs, but possible if the engine was designed to run on 91 octane and you intend to run 89 or even 87...

One of the problems with the earlier water injection systems was dramatic increases in HP and blown heads, bent rods, etc....i.e. lots of law suits. In our litigious society, nothing that's not "idiot proof" is a good business proposition. I'm not sure you can increase fuel economy with a system like that. On the other hand, people experimenting with fish tank bubblers and the like have reported 5-7% increases in fuel economy in IC engines with over 9:1 compression.

Not sure any of this helps though... :-/

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by mick on 07/11/08 at 23:01:59

My Dad was a spitfire and hurican mechanic during WW2 same engine,
a rolls royce merlin a v12 ,the only device they used in a emergency situation was the throttle,there was a thin breakable wire across the throttle bridge,you had to push the throttle past the wire,breaking it in the process,this would put you you a few thousand rpm above the red line,but would as a rule get you away if you had run out of ammo or the bad guy had you in his sights.
If and when you got back to base the the engine had to be pulled for an overhaul,and you (the pilot) had to go face the commanding officer and tell him why you had to burn up one of his majesty's engine's
I aske my 93 year old Dad about the water thing (today) he said he had heard of it but it was never used on spits, and that from the horses mouth so to speak.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/12/08 at 00:04:34

Some of the W.W.2 aircraft that used water injection:

1.) British Shackleton with the Griffin 59 engine:

http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/engines.htm

2.) North American Mustang P51H:

http://hubpages.com/hub/World-War-2-Best-Fighter-Planes

3.) B-26 Marauder & 4.) P47 Thunderbolt:

http://usfighter.tripod.com/engines.htm

5.) Focke-Wulf 190A-4:

http://hubpages.com/hub/World-War-2-Best-Fighter-Planes

6.) Grumman 190A-5:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/aircraft/wildcat.htm

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Jack_650 on 07/12/08 at 10:20:42

The only thing I've ever heard against using these kinds of gadgets (never heard any un-biased pluses by the way) was a simple one. Water doesn't burn so at best it would slow down combustion which could be a good thing. However, water also doesn't compress, ie get smaller in volume. Get too much water in your ignition chamber when the cyl. comes up, what happens to the water which doesn't burn and doesn't compress. All that pressure has to go somewhere. Blown gasket could be about the best of many outcomes.

Jack

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Steve M on 07/12/08 at 11:56:56

Fascinating thread this!

I personally wouldn't trust anything that involves water in an engine.
A savage is an economical machine that runs about as lean as you can get.
Surely whatever you do to try and achieve more MPG just means it will run even leaner?
I'm no scientist but I have always thought burn less fuel means get less power?

If you want better economy than your getting from a savage then buy a 50cc scoot! (then you get the less power bit as well, lol!)

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/12/08 at 15:30:00

Wow! Didn't expect so much response on this topic. This is really cool. Thanks for all your input.

I wouldn't expect such a simple thing to turn out to be the answer to all. What I was really looking for in this "vaporizor" was to cool the engine a little (it gets 100+ here), and maybe give a little HP. Not really interested in the MPG at this point. The Honda Shadow is running to lean, PO put on after market exhausts and didn't rejet. Running hot from being lean, not to mention 100+ weather right now. I have a dyna rejet kit on order, but in the mean time...

I built one out of a used gatorade bottle and parts from Orchard, maybe $5 total. Hooked it up to the PCV line on my Honda Shadow. Mounted the bottle between the handlebars and windshield where I could adjust the flow. I saw some bubbles at first but then they quit. I didn't seal the holes in the lid with plumber's goop, so that may be the problem. The test run did not show any improvement at all...and no bubbles.

I'm going to fix the leaks on the vaporizor and try again. I'll let you know if I see any improvement. Don't worry, I will be rejetting the bike. But would be interesting test to see if the thing does anything. One guy put this and the "HHO generator" on his BMW motorcycle. He didn't see any improvement, but he didn't do very good tests by his own admission.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/12/08 at 15:35:03

4D4F4F52451510200 wrote:

My understanding is that a lot of gasoline is used to cool the engine, by not burning. The idea behind this vaporizor is to use only the amount of gas you need to burn and use water vapor to cool. I'm not an expert, and don't know all the explainations, but that is my understanding of how it's supposed to work.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 07/12/08 at 15:41:19

We also had water injection on the early (pre G model) B-52s, and early KC-135 tankers. Hence, they were affectionately called "water wagons". Those early jet engines had horrible acceleration for takeoff.

Huge plumes of black smoke on takeoff, sucking fuel thru them like nothing else could. I can't imagine how it could increase efficiency.

I never got to fly any WW II fighters, but remember reading about War Emergency Power, or WEP. WEP was, as Mick said, just more throttle that allowed the pilot to exceed normal red line in manifold pressure (not RPM) to get away from the bad guy. Use of it trashed the engine.

Kinda like our technique in F-4s to get away from a Mig 23 or 25 - full afterburners, dive for the deck, get as low as you could go, and run like the dickens home.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/12/08 at 16:43:02

2026353E1828292618342631262022470 wrote:

HHO Generator scam:

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/12/08 at 23:46:39

6D5E5844595E2C0 wrote:

[quote author=2026353E1828292618342631262022470 link=1215802217/0#14 date=1215901800]Wow! Didn't expect so much response on this topic. This is really cool. Thanks for all your input.

I wouldn't expect such a simple thing to turn out to be the answer to all. What I was really looking for in this "vaporizor" was to cool the engine a little (it gets 100+ here), and maybe give a little HP. Not really interested in the MPG at this point. The Honda Shadow is running to lean, PO put on after market exhausts and didn't rejet. Running hot from being lean, not to mention 100+ weather right now. I have a dyna rejet kit on order, but in the mean time...

I built one out of a used gatorade bottle and parts from Orchard, maybe $5 total. Hooked it up to the PCV line on my Honda Shadow. Mounted the bottle between the handlebars and windshield where I could adjust the flow. I saw some bubbles at first but then they quit. I didn't seal the holes in the lid with plumber's goop, so that may be the problem. The test run did not show any improvement at all...and no bubbles.

I'm going to fix the leaks on the vaporizor and try again. I'll let you know if I see any improvement. Don't worry, I will be rejetting the bike. But would be interesting test to see if the thing does anything. One guy put this and the "HHO generator" on his BMW motorcycle. He didn't see any improvement, but he didn't do very good tests by his own admission.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/13/08 at 00:35:24

0402111A3C0C0D023C100215020406630 wrote:

[quote author=6D5E5844595E2C0 link=1215802217/15#17 date=1215906182][quote author=2026353E1828292618342631262022470 link=1215802217/0#14 date=1215901800]Wow! Didn't expect so much response on this topic. This is really cool. Thanks for all your input.

I wouldn't expect such a simple thing to turn out to be the answer to all. What I was really looking for in this "vaporizor" was to cool the engine a little (it gets 100+ here), and maybe give a little HP. Not really interested in the MPG at this point. The Honda Shadow is running to lean, PO put on after market exhausts and didn't rejet. Running hot from being lean, not to mention 100+ weather right now. I have a dyna rejet kit on order, but in the mean time...

I built one out of a used gatorade bottle and parts from Orchard, maybe $5 total. Hooked it up to the PCV line on my Honda Shadow. Mounted the bottle between the handlebars and windshield where I could adjust the flow. I saw some bubbles at first but then they quit. I didn't seal the holes in the lid with plumber's goop, so that may be the problem. The test run did not show any improvement at all...and no bubbles.

I'm going to fix the leaks on the vaporizor and try again. I'll let you know if I see any improvement. Don't worry, I will be rejetting the bike. But would be interesting test to see if the thing does anything. One guy put this and the "HHO generator" on his BMW motorcycle. He didn't see any improvement, but he didn't do very good tests by his own admission.

HHO Generator scam:

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml[/quote]

Other's don't think it's a scam:

http://www.goodgrease.com/water-injection-is-a-very-simple-and-very-safe-older-technology-that-has-almost-been-forgotten

I've read other stuff saying HHO is viable..but not miraculous..[/quote]

The documentation you listed is not about HHO generators. It is about water injection.

As I earlier posted, The multi-million dollar Holley corporation's graduate engineers tried to solve all the many problems involved with water injection in automobile engines and marketed a system for this purpose. It failed in the marketplace and was discontinued, because it did not work. Vacuum varies with engine RPM. This causes incorrect amounts of water vapor to be sucked up into the engine at the wrong times. There are a multitude of other engine conditions that vary the amount of water vapor needed for water injection to work properly, and this is what the Holley system tried to address with an electronic metering system. It failed because the problem is too complex and varies with different engines.

Simplistic (pre-Holley) systems were widely and cheaply available in the '50s-'60s, and bought by many people. I knew a few. The idea lost popularity because water injection did not save gas nor offer more power. It did not work like it was supposed too.

As for removing carbon, water will do that and when cars used to have problems with carbon build up, people would race their engines while pouring small amounts of water down the carb throat. However, using water injection for this purpose should not be needed if one bothers to use a good grade of gas. And in any case the problems water injection bottles added to the engine by reducing the flame front of the ignition of the gasoline with water vapor, outweighed any carbon removal benefits.

Don't you think the auto manufacturers would have used this 68 year old, un-patented idea on their cars as a marketing tool, if it saved gas or increased power?

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/13/08 at 16:47:42

Gort. Thanks for the dialog. I really don't know what automakers would/could do with any technology. They don't seem to do too much of anything with engine advancement, particularly with MPG improvement. Traction control - yes. GPS and Diagnostics - yes. Aerodynamics - yes. Engine/MPG improvement - no. (My impression...maybe not others)

I just look at autos of today and notice that they don't get any better gas mileage or performance than my first car I bought in 81. In fact, my '81 Plymouth Champ got better gas mileage than any car on the market today...even they hybrids. How can that be? And what makes me more upset is that my dad's 2002 Corvette gets better gas mileage than my 2001 Toyota Highlander.

Now you can say what you want in defensive of automakers. But in my opinion, they are just as much a part of the gas problem as anything else in this county. Why? Because people will pay for glitz and not innovation. As long as gas was reasonable, people didn't care what the car's MPG was. Now it matters to people, and automakers don't seem to want to change. Why? Because eventually people will accept the current price of gas (just as they did before) and keep buying whatever new glitzy crap the car companies provide.

In 20 years look what we've done with computers. In 20 years, we sent men to the moon. Look what we took airplanes from in the last 100 years. But the 100 year old automobile engine hasn't changed much, runs off the same stuff, and gets pretty much the same (or less) MPG. Yeah. I believe the auto industry is doing everything it can to use technology....sure they are...

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/13/08 at 16:51:20

565043486E5E5F506E425047505654310 wrote:

Good point.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by bill67 on 07/13/08 at 17:21:50

I think the average car like chevs and ford get a lot better mileage than they use too.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gary On A Savage on 07/14/08 at 09:24:12

Gort, your views are greatly appreciated. And for the record, I never could get the "vaporizor" to work (ie no bubbles). Don't think I'm tagging a good vacuum line. Anyway, I don't think it's a good design and I'm shelving it for now.

So let me ask a similar "what if". I was reading on the Shadow forum about injecting water to clean engine, boost power...blah blah blah (All talk, no action). It gets so hot here in the summer (100+ most of the time) and so do the bikes, especially the Savage, and climbing foothills reall puts a load on the bike. Do you think a manual water injection would be beneficial under limited conditions? Say a system that you would turn on/off (or squeezed) that would inject water spray somewhere into the air intake, say at the air cleaner? If so, under what conditions? Summertime high RPM, heavy load, power boost. What does anyone think?

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/14/08 at 11:22:49

Here is what I did to my '71 Wolseley 16/60. The engine requires high octane gas. I wanted to use regular. Doing so caused it to ping, knock and diesel when you turned the key off. So, I used cooled Marvel Mystery oil to solve the problem.

The goal was to reduce combustion temperatures which would reduce the need for hi-octane gas, as well as cause the engine to run cooler.

Upper Cylinder injection systems are very similar to water injection:

http://www.ampcolubes.com/

I have the one using the metal can reservoir. ( You don't want to use the plastic or glass units as they will insulate the oil from the airstream). I mounted the can in the front of the car where the airflow hits it. This cools the Marvel Mystery Oil ( a simple, lightweight oil that will not burn in the engine's combustion chamber) that is in it. The oil is then sucked ( by engine vacuum) through a small transmission cooler, which is also in the airflow in the front of the car. This cools it some more. It then enters the intake manifold via a spray nozzle, where it is distributed to the 4 cylinders via the intake valves. It gets sucked into the cylinders and pushed back out, via the exhaust valves, and then out through the exhaust. It never burns, in the cylinders. This results in a cooling of the combustion temps of the cylinders. The way I know that it is doing so, is that with this simple system, I can use regular gas in this engine with no pinging or dieseling. If I stop the flow of the cooled oil, the engine pings upon acceleration and diesels at shutdown.

The Ampco unit's flow rate is controlled by a metering valve on the container. All of this could be duplicated at home, and you can buy the spray nozzles separately from Vaco, Inc, P.O. Box 6, Florence MA 01060 (413) 586-0978

Perhaps a system like this would solve your specific needs?

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by bill67 on 07/14/08 at 11:37:59

You could put 1 oz. of 2 cycle oil in you gas too, when you fill up.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/14/08 at 18:38:47

2E2520207A7B4C0 wrote:

You could put 1 oz. of 2 cycle oil in you gas too, when you fill up.

2 cycle oil will burn in the combustion chamber and leave its soot behind. Thats why you see all that smoke coming out of a 2 cycle exhaust system. Marvel Mystery Oil or Redex will not burn in the combustion chamber, and leave only lubrication behind.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by bill67 on 07/14/08 at 19:42:06

I think your doing so guessing there.

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by bill67 on 07/14/08 at 19:43:57

575C59590302350 wrote:

I think your doing so guessing there.

I've had 3 2 cycle motorcycles and a lot of snowmobiles that didn't smoke

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/14/08 at 20:19:51

575C59590302350 wrote:

I think your doing so guessing there.

'Gary on a Savage' is trying to cool his engine and or give it a power boost. How is mixing 2 cycle oil in the gas of a 4 cycle engine going to do this?

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by bill67 on 07/14/08 at 20:25:37

Just like ampcolubes

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by Gort on 07/14/08 at 20:33:25

3E3530306A6B5C0 wrote:

Just like ampcolubes

Bill, the Ampco "lubes" (Marvel Mystery Oil or Redex) will not in themselves cool an engine or give it a power boost, and most certainly 2 cycle oil mixed in the gas tank of a 4 cycle engine will not, either. The reason M.M. Oil or Redex might cool the engine's combustion is because these oils are being cooled themselves in 2 separate ways, first, before they enter the combustion chamber. Didn't you read the post?

Title: Re: Water Injection for Savage
Post by bill67 on 07/15/08 at 03:01:22

My 1500 has an oil cooler on it came that way.