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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1213810023 Message started by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 10:27:02 |
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Title: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 10:27:02 So I'd already been hearing the "Wheel of Fortune" noise from the belt pulley area on 99 #2 for about the last week (150 miles or so) and was considering the sprocket and chain conversion anyways... And the "Wheel of Fortune" thread got me to thinking I'd better check the situation out before I made any other plans for that bike. Looks like I may have dodged a bullet on this one. When I first removed the pulley nut, the splines and pulley all seemed to look good. Then I remembered to remove the bend-over locking washer so I could see the gears mating better. Then things didn't look so good, and tapping on the pulley with a dead-blow hammer made it wobble. Scenes of splitting crankcases and changing shafts next winter started dancing through my head. (A real nightmare!) But then I know that taking a close-up picture of small details like this can tell more than the naked eye: http://catoosatrading.com/images/cycles/gear_teeth.jpg Looks like the shaft splines may have survived. Sure glad I didn't ride it any farther before checking it. That might have torn everything up real good! The way it is; Looks like I might be able to clean up the shaft and get me some sprockets and chain and have me some highway gearing going. I've seen O-ring chain on eBay cheaper than anywhere else so far; but I might lean towards an all-in-one matching tempered alloy kit if anyone knows where to get them reasonable? :D |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Educatedredneck on 06/18/08 at 10:34:24 Hey Rockin - How many miles do you have on your bike?? If I remember correctly in the other thread you mentioned, that particular bike had less that 10K on it. I'm just curious, for my 1997 has 1300 miles on it and Im wondering if I ought to plan a chain conversion for the Thump once the riding season is over. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by toddlamp8 on 06/18/08 at 13:56:21 Were you getting any slippage? I am getting slippage like a bad clutch but i've already replaced most parts in that area and i'm trying to figure out if there is anything else that could be slipping. The belt is one of them. However, I feel that if my pulley or belt were wearing down it would be all or nothing. Was your bike still pulling when you accelerated or did you have time when the engine RPM would increase but the speed wouldn't? |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 14:12:26 25322333323B3B2E243839570 wrote:
Nope... That's my old 87 that only has 7k miles on it. This 99 has 12 close to 13k miles on it. The other 99 is close to 29k and rolling towards 30! From the number and frequency of problems associated with this pulley, I'd recommend checking the torque on the nut at least as frequent as each rear tire change. Maybe 6-8k would be best to catch problems before they happen. (If someone were so inclined, they could no doubt look in the books for Suzuki's recommended interval of maintenance on the pulley, but obviously I hadn't checked it yet. Gee... wonder what else I'm overlooking??? Think I'll crack the books and see what other PM (Periodic Maintenance) I should be checking on these bikes! :D |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 14:25:15 4F545F5F575A564B033B0 wrote:
Nope, no slippage at all yet. I'm not a regular at smoking burnouts, but I do regularly launch the bike fairly hard and shift hard. Frankly, I'm surprised that pulley has held up for at least a couple of hundred miles since I had first noticed noise from it. I assumed that there was just a slight pulley mis-alignment causing the belt to ride up the edge of the pulley some; and that was causing the noise. I had no idea how serious the problem was getting. It now appears that my complacency was heading me for serious trouble! :-[ For diagnostic purpose, if you have a "slipping" problem; I'd not look at this problem for that symptom. I'll bet when this gear goes, it strips all at once. As it appears mine was on the verge of doing. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Reelthing on 06/18/08 at 15:00:22 Hey I've seen one like that before! how much torque was on the nut when you removed it? no idea if these bikes ship with the back tire in place or if that is part of the dealer setup when they come out of the crate. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by skrapiron on 06/18/08 at 15:18:10 D@mn you guys and your problems... It's like a guy at work having a heart attack. Within 2 weeks, everyone in the building is having their cholesterol checked. After reading the post, I went down to the garage. My trusty torque wrench in hand, I proceeded to pull the pulley off my bike. Wouldn't you know, but mine was loose too. I had the wrench set to 65ft/lbs (never reset it from my last project) and it never clicked when I started to back the nut off. Fortunately, it wasn't loose enlough to introduce much free-play, but I have been hearing the 'wheel of fortune' sound comming from that pulley for a month now. I pulled the lock washer off and inspected. Hooray, no wear on my splines or the shaft. I put it back together, added some red thread locker to the shaft, retorqued the nut and took it for a ride. No more 'wheel of fortune' sound! No more belt noise of any sort. Most important, no more vibration through the foot peg! I know this one is going on my list of nuts to check at every oil change. I'm afraid to think how much it would cost to replace that output shaft.... |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Reelthing on 06/18/08 at 15:24:32 at least on the '95 it seemed the pully was the softer of the two .... RED thread locker - isn't that the stuff it takes a flamethrower and sledgehammer to break looooose? |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Bleemus on 06/18/08 at 15:33:43 Man, what a great Fu$%ING site this is. Everyone shares tips and tricks and it looks like a few people have averted disaster because of it! I am hoping to be a Savage owner next week. People with bike for sale are due back from trip on Tuesday and I am not going to leave them alone till I have their bike in my garage. My torque wrench is waiting! |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 17:04:02 4F787871697574737A1D0 wrote:
Yep, I noticed the picture of yours that looked about like mine from your link in the other thread on the subject. As for how much torque was on it (how tight it was) I couldn't say; because I used the easy way out and just used my 1/2" impact driver set on 4 (high) to remove the nut. I know my old impact is powerful, and it had to hammer a few seconds with over 120 psi on it. I had to hold my foot against the tire to keep it from picking up speed ;D And gave it several bursts before it broke loose, so it was pretty darn tight! |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Ed L. on 06/18/08 at 17:05:07 Just ran out and checked for a loose nut on my '02. Looks like the only one is in the seat behind the handle bars. I set my tourque wrench at 85 ftlbs and tried to tighten the pully nut and nothing even moved. Feel a lot better, you know it's one of those things that I've been meaning to get around to and finally did. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 17:12:08 66515158405C5D5A53340 wrote:
Same here on the pulley seeming to be the softer of the two. And yes if you use Loc-tite brand thread lock the red stuff for setting studs will set so hard that a torch, cheater bar and sledge hammer will just rip the threads out. I know, because I've done that trick a few times. ;D |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rogue_Cheddar on 06/18/08 at 18:28:48 Hey Rockin_John, make sure you order a new seal for the driveshaft when you order the new pulley. It doesn't cost that much, and will save you having to take it apart again when it starts leaking oil after a couple k. I found out the hard way. :'( Also get a new lock washer and nut too. Don't trust the old nut is not stripped or cracked that might caused it to loosen to begin with. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 06/18/08 at 22:41:01 48757D6F7F4559727F7E7E7B681A0 wrote:
Thanks for the reminders, I'm sure that they will apply even though I intend to do a chain conversion and new tires while I've got it apart. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by smokin_blue on 06/19/08 at 04:04:08 5D6A6A637B676661680F0 wrote:
They ship with the back wheel on......front fender, and front wheel, handlebars, and sissy bar are off. rear tire nested, front axle bolted in the crate and stablilized by a bracket at the bar clamps. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/19/08 at 05:18:34 Yer SPOSED to unload the spring in the torque wrench when yer done, man... |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Reelthing on 06/19/08 at 09:12:23 110F0D090B0C3D000E1707620 wrote:
They ship with the back wheel on......front fender, and front wheel, handlebars, and sissy bar are off. rear tire nested, front axle bolted in the crate and stablilized by a bracket at the bar clamps.[/quote] - so this loose nut is either a product of wear as the nut can't backoff with the lock tabs down or factory incorrect assembly - if we assume wear - wonder what in that stack is doing so - the spacer under the pully is a pretty solid piece of steel... don't know - I still have the old parts - might be an afternoon of playing with a mic'r'meter in the future. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by smokin_blue on 06/19/08 at 19:25:07 4572727B637F7E7970170 wrote:
They ship with the back wheel on......front fender, and front wheel, handlebars, and sissy bar are off. rear tire nested, front axle bolted in the crate and stablilized by a bracket at the bar clamps.[/quote] - so this loose nut is either a product of wear as the nut can't backoff with the lock tabs down or factory incorrect assembly - if we assume wear - wonder what in that stack is doing so - the spacer under the pully is a pretty solid piece of steel... don't know - I still have the old parts - might be an afternoon of playing with a mic'r'meter in the future. [/quote] One thought is that the pulley belt surface is wider than the spline area, Whereas a sprocket holds the same width. Now where I am going with this is that a chain will pretty much pull in line with a sprocket whereas if something causes more load on one edge of the pulley than another it can create a pretty good moment on the pulley putting an excessive rocking load on the spline area as the system rotates. That rocking becomes a small sliding motion on the spline surfaces which then rapidly accelerate wear and the more it wears the more it rocks the more it wears the more the wear is accelerated...hello wheel of fortune sound! Don't know as you are right it should not do what it did. As far as the lock tabs. I have seem many many GS's, TS's , GSX-Rs all loosen their counter shaft nuts even with lock tabs down. It just doesn't keep it tight. The only thing I can think that normally really saves the pully is the lock nut (not a feature on the older bikes) and the 10 gallons of locktite they put on in Japan! Definately a point to inspect! |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Digger on 08/02/08 at 21:01:29 736D6F6B696E5F626C7565000 wrote:
Interesting point, smokin'. Perhaps this application calls for a judicious application of moly paste on the splines before reassembly. As far as I can tell, the FSM does not call for such. What say out there? |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Demin on 08/03/08 at 07:24:14 It's funny this thread came back up.Took the pulley off of the '87 because it was leaking.Put the impact on it,and it spun right off as soon as I hit the trigger.Splines are beat up. http://w3.bikepics.com/pics/2008/08/03/bikepics-1373648-800.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Digger on 07/28/09 at 18:51:03 I recently checked the torque on my bike's drive pulley nut (my bike is in my signature), and I'd like to clarify a point for posterity. On my bike, anyway, the threads are conventional right-hand threads. You can also see this on the picture in Denim's post, just above this post. A while back, there were some posts (see http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1214173745/3#3) that said the threads were left-hand. Perhaps this was true for some of the pre-2001 bikes, I'm not sure. BTW, I ran the nut up to 75 ft-lbs and it did not move. I guess it is OK. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/29/09 at 08:00:06 Wouldnt make sense for those to be left hand threads. If an end on view of the shaft is taken, then, when the shaft rotates, if you held the nut, it would tighten. If left handed, then it would loosen. The reason they even Do the left handed threads is to make it so shaft rotation doesnt invite a nut to back off. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rogue_Cheddar on 07/29/09 at 10:03:50 My splines had gotten ruined at 12k. I JB Welded a new spocket, still holding at 20k. I'm not touching that sprocket ever again ifn I don't have to. :D |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Reelthing on 07/29/09 at 13:27:02 554A4C4B5651605060584A460D3F0 wrote:
long as you had the locking washer on there sure doesn't seem like the nut could move - I think it was just a QC on some of these bikes as the '95 only had maybe 5lbs on it and a perfect fold on the locking washer with all of it's teeth still there |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by PTRider on 07/29/09 at 15:49:57 I'd use something like Loctite 635 Retaining Compound (http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/product-search-1554.htm?iname=Loctite%C2%AE+635%E2%84%A2+Retaining+Compound&countryCode=us&BU=industrial&parentredDotUID=0000000GHE&redDotUID=0000000M7U), but it could only be found at an industrial supply store. Alternately, I'd use consumer Loctite blue. The loosening could be from wear on the faces of the pulley where it contacts the shoulder on the shaft or the washer. If the pulley wears and gets thinner, the nut is no longer holding it as is should without the nut turning. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by grandpa on 07/29/09 at 22:15:47 I am glad that I couldn't sleep tonight and read this post. I have had the wheel of fortune sound for several hundred miles. I checked out the front wheel bearing and brakes. All was well. I commute appx 60 miles daily round trip. It's going to rain hard for a few days. I know what I am checking out tomorrow night!! I have been planning an all day road trip to some civil war parks. Have been reluctant to do so because of the noise. Thanks all!! |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by grandpa on 08/01/09 at 16:59:48 Checked out the bike last night. Front pulley was OK fine. Reached back to the rear pulley and it was wobbly. The rear axle bolt was loose. Just enough to allow some wobble in the bearingsand pulley. Torqued it down and no more noise. Just rode the driveway but it was enough to tell. Hope the rains will be gone tomorrow and allow a real test. Will update. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by Rockin_John on 08/02/09 at 00:20:35 Granpa: Hope the loose rear axle bolt was all there was to your noise. Digger: I don't know about my 1987, since I haven't removed it, but my 1999 sprocket nut is normal right handed thread; as I was recently reminded when changing the front sprocket from 17t down to 16t. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by MikeJ on 08/05/09 at 18:08:02 Great information fellas, I've had the wheel of fortune noise going on as well, kept aligning the belt to no avail. Pulled the cover off to get a look at the front sprocket, there was definately a slight wobble there. Was able to tighten it just slightly, that is the nut moved just a tad and the torque wrench clicked @ 65 ft/lbs, but it was enough to take the wobble out & kill the noise. As I'd already hit 65 with the wrench and wasn't satisfied I'd done enough, I gave the breaker bar a couple of wacks with a hammer for good measure. I guess I'll take the nut off this weekend and have a look at splines. Question next, as the bike wanted to roll off as I'm torqing, and belt stretch seems to me to interfere with an accurate reading, how does one go about securing the mechanism to avoid those issues? A bar through the spokes doesn't seem like the way to go... :-? Mike |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by serenity3743 on 08/06/09 at 05:24:55 7B5F5D537C360 wrote:
Did you pry up the tab on the locking washer while you were at it? |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by MikeJ on 08/06/09 at 06:43:53 Oh yes, washer in place with tab bent. |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by mjbgman on 08/06/09 at 10:17:02 I need to check this, but I don't have a big enough socket. ::) What size is the Cam Pulley Nut?? |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by serenity3743 on 08/06/09 at 11:15:57 REEL BIG!!! ;D |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by MikeJ on 08/06/09 at 11:18:24 One would think it metric, but my 1-1/4" impact socket fit snugly. 1.25 x 25.4 = 31.75mm, so 32mm? This is a '95, don't know if all are the same. Mike |
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Title: Re: Dodging the Belt Pully Bullet... Post by mjbgman on 08/06/09 at 11:40:19 4662606E410B0 wrote:
Thanx |
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