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Message started by BurnPgh on 06/02/08 at 22:18:30

Title: rolled and smoked him
Post by BurnPgh on 06/02/08 at 22:18:30

I dont condone doing something like this but.... I have to say it was fun. Anyway I'm riding along a long road with 2 traffic lights, one on each end between two small towns. Speed limit is 45. A guy on a Sportster BLAZES past me. Probably going 60 or so. He probably saw the "SUZUKI" on the back of the sissy bar and thought I'd be a good laugh. I couldnt resist. I gunned it and blazed right past him without looking back. He did stick with me but didnt try passing me again. Luckily cops dont frequent that road and its pretty straight or I wouldnt have bothered. Plus I'm very farmiliar with it. Caught myself at almost 90 coming up to the red light right before my town. He's a few hundred yards behind and pulls up a few seconds after me and yells "what the hell is that!?" I get to say, with a grin from ear to ear "Suzuki" , he yells "yea I know , but what? What size?" and I still grinning reply "Savage 650" His mouth dropped a little. Light turns green and I speed off just to drive the point home.

Dont get me wrong. I have no problem with Harleys or Harley riders in general but HD is not the end all be all of motorcyles and I like to think thats the point I got across tonight.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by Jay on 06/02/08 at 22:35:24

I don't condone such juvenile behavior either! ;)
That said, well done Sir!! Some HD riders can be really frustrating. Don't wave back (I actually had one flip me off!), put down anything that's not a HD; all the while polishing their chrome, or trailering the bike to shows and rallys instead of riding their precious "baby" (ooh, might get a scratch!) Thankfully they're the minority of HD owners and riders. Still, it doesn't hurt to deflate a little undeserved ego every once in a while.
Ride safe,
Jay

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by BurnPgh on 06/02/08 at 23:06:19

I havent had a big problem with HD riders before really. Nothing like that anyway. A guy I work with rides a HD thats "far from stock" and "REALLY fast" but I have yet to see it in the parking lot, where as I have ridden any day it wasnt STORMING or my bike incapacitated since it hit 50*F. On my Reb 250 until I got the Savage a month or so ago. I digress, usually its not so blatantly rude. With the 250 especially it goes along this line "Oh a 250 huh? What kind?", "Oh a Rebel? Wow, I didnt know they still made those. Had one when I was about your age. Good bike. Mine never gave me trouble anyway. But seriously. These days, you'll want something bigger in no time." Sure enough I moved up to the Savage. But still. I was already doing at least 50 when the guy passed me. I always speed a little so I know he wasnt just mad at me going under the speed limit (I hate when people do that). It just seemed to me to be a slap in the face. I'm learning more and more that the Savage is a SOLID machine and I've got my life riding on it, literally, so if you insult my bike you insult me and I just cant have that. It was fun. Also stupid. But fun.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/08 at 04:06:47

I dont know why, but with all the danged HD's in Longview, I just cant seem to catch one that wants to try this 650 out. None have passed me, I know that's for sure. I tried tio get a lady to race me the other day. She & I were getting ready to leave church & I thought it would at least be a chance to see how it holds up against a Sportster, but she declined, saying she drives slow & wants to live.. Imagine! Some people will use ANY excuse!

Some day, me & Bull will get our shot at one, & it's be the most hopped up HD in town.. AND we will win,, BIG! ::)

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by furious70 on 06/03/08 at 07:00:44

so you took turns blowing by each other when the other wasn't paying attention. I don't really consider that a kill for either of you; that's what all the fart piped cars do.

Line up from a stop with any sportster and see what happens. Especially a 1200.

I'm not a HD guy at all, don't own one, don't plan to, but let's be realistic, the 1200 Sporty is a quick bike for a classic cruiser. Not v-rod fast, but quick for what it is.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/03/08 at 08:22:42

I think a standard Savage takes about 6.9 seconds to get to 60, an 883 anything quoted from 6.5 to 6.9 ( - that's close!) and a 1200 Sportster is around 5.5.

Found this list of Harley quarter figures:

V-ROD 11.92 @ 112.8MPH
SOFTAIL DUECE 13.14 @ 97.2MPH
SPORTSTER 1200 SPORT 13.39 @ 95.2MPH
DYNA T-SPORT 13.68 @ 94.3MPH
ROAD KING CLASSIC 13.74 @ 93.8MPH
DYNA SUPER GLIDE SPORT 13.77 @ 93.7MPH
ROAD KING STANDARD 13.80 @ 93.5MPH
SPORTSTER 1200 CUSTOM 13.89 @ 93.7MPH
FAT BOY 13.97 @ 91.9MPH
DYNA SUPER GLIDE 14.03 @ 91.9MPH
HERITAGE ST CLASSIC 14.28 @ 92.2MPH
ULTRA CLASSIC ELECTRA GLIDE 14.69 @ 86.7MPH
SPORTSTER 883 STANDARD 14.77 @ 89.9MPH
SPORTSTER 883R 15.63 @ 83.3MPH

Here's the bad news:

Savage 16.35 at 77.2 (Sadly, but that's a restricted 650 for you).

With Lancer's cam, carb and pod air filter and a good exhaust he's taken the 0-60 to under 5 seconds - that's some improvement on standard and would certainly show a Sportster how it's done!!

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by furious70 on 06/03/08 at 11:29:34

Quote:

With Lancer's cam, carb and pod air filter and a good exhaust he's taken the 0-60 to under 5 seconds

how was this measured? Gtech?

Of course if you start to mod the savage you have to allow for the other guy to be modded too.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by Hard Corps on 06/03/08 at 12:56:51

Hey Burn-
Good on ya. I got a good laugh out of this. People are constantly stopping me and asking what kind of bike I'm on. They can't believe the power coming out of a single cylinder. Had a cop pull up next to me at the gas station this morning and ask "How big IS that engine?" I told him it was a 650. He sucks air and goes, "In a single?" Yup. Got the same look from the Sporster I blew by yesterday. Not that he couldn't have smoked me, but some people just don't know how to ride a motorcycle the way a motorcycle was meant to be ridden.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog." 8-)

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by barry68v10 on 06/03/08 at 17:23:05

[quote author=695543496C5756220 link=1212470311/0#5 date=1212506562]I think a standard Savage takes about 6.9 seconds to get to 60, an 883 anything quoted from 6.5 to 6.9 ( - that's close!) /quote]

Hmmm? Are you saying a 650 single performs about like an 883 twin? ;D

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/04/08 at 06:55:08

606370707B343A743332020 wrote:

[quote author=695543496C5756220 link=1212470311/0#5 date=1212506562]I think a standard Savage takes about 6.9 seconds to get to 60, an 883 anything quoted from 6.5 to 6.9 ( - that's close!) /quote]
Hmmm? Are you saying a 650 single performs about like an 883 twin? ;D

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/04/08 at 07:07:51

6F7C7B60667C7A3E39090 wrote:

Quote:

With Lancer's cam, carb and pod air filter and a good exhaust he's taken the 0-60 to under 5 seconds

how was this measured? Gtech?
Of course if you start to mod the savage you have to allow for the other guy to be modded too.

Not sure on the measurement, you'd have to ask Lancer.

As for the mods, very true, but the Savage is unusual in that it has designed-in restrictions when it comes out of the factory, while the other bike doesn't.
The sorts of mods mentioned are really only taking the Savage to where it should be as an unrestricted roadbike, not tuning it beyond where it should have been in the first place.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by furious70 on 06/04/08 at 11:59:24

I think I lot of bike owners would say the same about their bike however. A lot of bikes are 'restricted' to some degree. My bike is hobbled to the tune of 12-15hp, mostly because of the snakepit of an intake tract on it. Put a $20 9" car air cleaner assembly on it, plug in a PCIII, and 12-15hp show up. 2-4hp more with the right pipe. That's a difference you feel, and it's all bolt in parts that can be done in a weekend.

It's commonly agreed to by mean streak owners that the above mods is how the bike _should have_ come from the factory. That doesn't really amount to a hill of beans though. To me a bike is either stock, or it's not. And if it's not, then comparing it apples to apples no longer works.

I must admit, I'd be surprised by a savage running 0-60 in under 5 sec. That's actually pretty fast for a lawn mower engine ;D . I would think a standard rear tire would lack traction to get out that hard.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/04/08 at 12:14:56

2437302B2D37317572420 wrote:

I must admit, I'd be surprised by a savage running 0-60 in under 5 sec. That's actually pretty fast for a lawn mower engine ;D . I would think a standard rear tire would lack traction to get out that hard.

Really don't see why - 5 seconds isn't quick at all in bike terms, and most bikes, even on hard touring tyres, will lift the front wheel before they'll spin the rear as long as it's warm.

I have a Kawasaki ZL1000 cruiser/musclebike which has hard old tyres and will pull 60 in under 4 no problem.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by barry68v10 on 06/04/08 at 15:05:25

566A7C765368691D0 wrote:

[quote author=606370707B343A743332020 link=1212470311/0#8 date=1212538985][quote author=695543496C5756220 link=1212470311/0#5 date=1212506562]I think a standard Savage takes about 6.9 seconds to get to 60, an 883 anything quoted from 6.5 to 6.9 ( - that's close!) /quote]
Hmmm? Are you saying a 650 single performs about like an 883 twin? ;D

Point taken!

But . . . engine for engine, no.

Bike for bike, factoring the significant differences in weight and gearing, yes - at low speed only because of the gearing and weight.

The real difference is shown over the quarter:

Sportster 883 Standard 14.77 @ 89.9 mph
Savage LS650 16.35 @ 77.2 mph

At the end of the quarter that means he's going to have over 60 yards on the Savage and pulling away hard - and that kind of difference is just as bad as having sand kicked in you face by the big guy on the beach.[/quote]

True. But how much does engine/tranny design factor in the overall weight? Any 350 lb. or 370 lb. multis out there?

And what's the difference in gearing?

We just said that multis are always quicker than singles....what about first 1/8 mile or first 100 yards...how about 0-40mph or first 50 feet? Are we willing to make that statement for multiple cylinders in all cases?

Sorry all if I'm hijacking this thread. I've been pretty busy lately and unable to get in the fray ;)

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by bill67 on 06/04/08 at 15:39:59

My idea of performance is a high gear roll on from 40mph to 70mph thats the speeds you use most when riding a motorcycle.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by Paladin. on 06/04/08 at 16:39:39

383B2828236C622C6B6A5A0 wrote:

....We just said that multis are always quicker than singles....what about first 1/8 mile or first 100 yards...how about 0-40mph or first 50 feet? ....

"WE" do not say that multis are always quicker. Given the cited times for 0-60 and 1/4 mile it is obvious that the Savage is quicker off the line than a HD838. AFAICT, all else being equal, the single is quicker, the multi is faster.

6A6164643E3F080 wrote:

My idea of performance is a high gear roll on from 40mph to 70mph thats the speeds you use most when riding a motorcycle.

That may be the speeds YOU use most, sure as heck ain't the speeds I use most. I'm running 0-35 upto 0-50. I don't do 0-60 or quarter miles, especially when that quarter mile has me well over the speed limit.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/05/08 at 00:51:25

2F2C3F3F347B753B7C7D4D0 wrote:

True. But how much does engine/tranny design factor in the overall weight? Any 350 lb. or 370 lb. multis out there?

And what's the difference in gearing?

We just said that multis are always quicker than singles....what about first 1/8 mile or first 100 yards...how about 0-40mph or first 50 feet? Are we willing to make that statement for multiple cylinders in all cases?

Sorry all if I'm hijacking this thread. I've been pretty busy lately and unable to get in the fray ;)

most of the points you raise are answered on the single vs twin thread

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1212039158/15

In short, the only advantage the single has in terms of performance is that its torque is produced lower, so if you open the throttle at, say, 1500rpm you’ll pull ahead of the twin or multi, but both of them produce MORE torque higher up the rev range, so you’ll just nudge ahead by a bike length or less before they tear past. Every time.

And even that bike length will only happen if the twin/multi rider has his bike in the wrong gear, or lets the clutch out too soon from a standing start.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/05/08 at 01:09:43

4A7B767B7E73741A0 wrote:

"WE" do not say that multis are always quicker. Given the cited times for 0-60 and 1/4 mile it is obvious that the Savage is quicker off the line than a HD838.

Based on the facts we have, the only thing obvious is that the Savage is slightly slower to 60 than the 883 and way slower over a quarter.
The Savage may get off the line quicker, but we don’t know just yet.

I will resolve this – I’ll get hold of torque/gearing/weight data for both bikes and plot them through the first couple of gears, fact vs fact. Give me a few hours between distractions at work!!

4A7B767B7E73741A0 wrote:

AFAICT, all else being equal, the single is quicker, the multi is faster.

I’ll remind you of this post on the 650 single vs twin thread recently (both modern bikes producing similar levels of torque but at different revs):

427E6862477C7D090 wrote:

This seems to be a good comparison.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/5000SE/bmw_vs_xr_dyno_5_23_03.jpg
http://photos.motorcycle-usa.com/bmw_vs_xr_dyno_5_23_03.JPG
http://www.biketestusa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=71&Page=4

The two bikes produce similar ‘amounts’ of torque, in terms of spread of delivery above 25ftlb, but the BMW twin produces its slightly higher peak about 2000rpm further up the rev range than the Honda single.

The article seems an impartial comparison, but this quote is relevant:

“the 324-lb. XR pulls harder at lower speeds than the 412-lb. BMW. The XR's lower torque peak gives a rider immediate access to its fairly shallow well of power, but the BMW walks away from the XR during impromptu drag races, despite the Honda's better power-to-weight ratio”.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by furious70 on 06/05/08 at 09:03:42

AMEN again kwaknut. A lot of people don't seem to understand the feeling of immediate torque comes at the expense of all around performance.

Quote:

The XR's lower torque peak gives a rider immediate access to its fairly shallow well of power, but the BMW walks away from the XR during impromptu drag races, despite the Honda's better power-to-weight ratio

I will resolve this – I’ll get hold of torque/gearing/weight data for both bikes and plot them through the first couple of gears, fact vs fact. Give me a few hours between distractions at work!!

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/05/08 at 09:18:00

6477706B6D77713532020 wrote:

AMEN again kwaknut. A lot of people don't seem to understand the feeling of immediate torque comes at the expense of all around performance.

Quote:

This is a great way of putting it. If I have to make a choice, I'd much rather gear for the deep well of power than experience the immediate pull of the shallow well. Makes me more interested in a sport touring bike just thinking about it :)

[quote]I will resolve this – I’ll get hold of torque/gearing/weight data for both bikes and plot them through the first couple of gears, fact vs fact. Give me a few hours between distractions at work!!

This will be brilliant. I've tried to do this before with dyno graphs of different engines and the tranny + rear gear multipliers to get an idea of how it would play out. I got some interesting graphs of where the total system torques among the combos rise and fall, but had no way to turn that into anything tangible.[/quote]
You get there by spending so many hours putting in iterative lines of calculation into Excel that at the end of it, you can see the Matrix.

Still not got round to digging out my programme and the info, will try tonight.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by KwakNut on 06/05/08 at 16:00:11

Right, I've gathered the data I needed for full comparison between the Savage and the 883. Standard torque curves, gear ratios (gears plus primary and final drives), tyre sizes, wet weights.

I can't put them into the programme and pull out the results until I get home for the weekend (don't have it on my laptop), but here's an initial feel for things:

Across the rev range, the 883 has an average of 61% more torque

In first gear, the Savage has a 16% gearing advantage.

With a 200lb rider (incluing clothes/helmet etc), the Savage has a 34% weight advantage.

Combine them overall, and the 883 has an advantage of just 5% in average acceleration through first gear.

That kind of fits with the slight difference we're aware of for 0-60.

I'll post full results tomorrow when I get back home and can get to my programme, but looking at the torque curves, I think the only chance the Savage has off the mark is in the 0-5mph bracket, which isn't really relevant!

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by Sandy Koocanusa on 06/05/08 at 16:16:04

I can tell your mommy didn't read to you enough when you were young, KwakNut. You left out two very important factors: "The little engine that could" curve, and the "tortoise and the hare" corrollary.

My Savage can whip the socks off any Harley I choose to put it up against. I just don't choose the fast ones with skinny riders! :)

Have a good weekend.

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by LANCER on 06/05/08 at 20:06:22

676160627F7962630D0 wrote:

It is fun to embarrass sporty's in the jack rabbit runs ;D

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by Indysavage on 06/06/08 at 07:39:17

First of all, I love my 86 Savage, also in my garage is a stock 1978 HD flh. The flh is no speed demon by any strech of the imagination. The HD is faster than the Savage in every way. I will also say if I get a chance to blow by someone on an HD when I'm on the savage I will not hesitate!

Title: Re: rolled and smoked him
Post by furious70 on 06/06/08 at 07:47:56

sure, if I can embarrass someone by beating them on my wife's savage, that's hillarious fun, (and something probably went wrong with the other guy). But if people are expecting to line up against anything but a Rebel at a stoplight and smoke them, I think they'll be very disappointed.
As far as the 40-70mph roll on is concerned, from my butt-o-meter, the savage would do worse there than from a dead stop against most bikes.