|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Help please - broken header stud /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1211026924 Message started by meck on 05/17/08 at 05:22:03 |
|
Title: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/17/08 at 05:22:03 Well, it didn't take long for me to run into a problem. One side of the header bracket was held on by a regular hex bolt, and the other side looked to be a stud with an acorn nut on it. The hex bolt came off just fine, but the other side was giving me trouble. I sprayed some Sea Foam penetrating oil in there and let it sit. Long story short, the stud snapped. So I need some advice and information. The stud is broken almost flush, so there are no threads to put a nut on it. It's entirely possible that this thing hasn't been touched in 15 years, so I am wondering if a bolt extractor is even worth a try. Will I just break off the threads, or worse, break the extractor and then really be in trouble? I was thinking of just getting the specs on that stud, drilling out to exactly the right size, then re-tapping. Is there anything else I should try before that, or will I likely have to do it eventually anyway? Can anyone provide me with the specs on that stud - size, depth & thread pitch and whatever else I might need to know? On another note, I can't get the bottom nut off the forward heat shield - the stud just spins in the frame. How would one get that off? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 05/17/08 at 05:54:27 The easy one first - the those bolts go all the way through the fame and engine out the other side under the foot peg - just need to hold the head - 12 mm I think |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 05/17/08 at 06:14:40 naw the second brain cell I have left just started to react to the coffee -those frame through bolt heads on the other side are a lot bigger than a 12mm - anyway after you get the heat shield off put the nuts back on the bolts unless your going to pull the engine you know I've had to use several different type of bolt extracters, taps, and helicoils in my life - never my fault of course ::) ya right but if you have a sears store close to you the new designed craftsman extracters seems to work very well - they come in a 3 pack - different sizes - they have have the extracter on one end and the drill bit on the other - take it slow and I'll bet that bolt will come out of there then throw it at who ever had it off last time and didn't put antiseize grease on the bolt before they screwed a steel bolt into a piece of aluminum that gets very hot - morons. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/17/08 at 06:31:36 Sounds promising, thanks. I have a Sears just up the road so I'll take a look this afternoon. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Max_Morley on 05/17/08 at 09:40:27 Before you drill away what is left of the stud you might consider having a good welder weld a new nut on what is left. The heating and cooling from the welding often loosens the bond between the dis-similiar metals in the process. If it has been cross treaded you can probably still get it out, making it easier to drill and heli-coil or =. Max |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by vroom1776 on 05/17/08 at 09:41:55 . |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 05/17/08 at 10:37:02 7047474E564A4B4C45220 wrote:
They're 14mm You can try the craftman screw extractor. But I think the type you want to use is the drill a hole, pound in and turn type. But it couldn't hurt to put a torche to it, then the standard tap at with a hammer and center punch to turn it out. Most likely, the last idiot to put those in didn't use anti sieze. And seeing that they replaced one bolt with a hex head type (the acorn nut one is stock) they have had an issue with it before. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/17/08 at 19:29:49 I got a set of the Craftsman screw extractors - the drill/pound type. The drilling went fine, but on the second tap the extractor broke. It's not like I really need two bolts on the header bracket, right?? >:( |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Trippah on 05/17/08 at 19:31:09 Hope you have better luck than I did, the extractor broke. haven't had the time/money to get it fixed; and my neighbor sold his trailer so now I'll hve to rent a truck/or trailer and bring it round. the only welder nearby said he would not feel comfortable welding on a bolt, an alignment issue. At times. I do wish I lived a little closer to some shops. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 05/17/08 at 19:48:58 dang - are you able to get the extractor tip out of the hole? hellofit is you really don't know what the guy did before - may have red locktite on it if it kept getting loose - if so it takes a good bit of heat to break the red stuff loose - |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/17/08 at 19:57:32 It broke off flush. I've read about taking a torch to it, letting it cool naturally then going at it with a carbide bit... there really isn't much of the extractor in there. I'm open to suggestions, especially ones that don't require me to pay someone or get a new engine. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 05/17/08 at 20:11:58 I'd likely use the map gas torch on it a couple time and start drilling |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Max_Morley on 05/17/08 at 20:58:40 Meck, seeing the welding a nut on doesn't seem to be an option at this point. Then use the correct size extractor/easy out and drill the hole parallel to the other bolt, may want want to hand run it back in for a reference. It is OK to go all the way through with a smaller bit first as then you can get some penetrating oil working from the back side also. Patience is the key word. Don't go to big on the extractor, if you do all it does is spread the bolt threads tighter into the head threads. Trippah, I've had some luck breaking a broken extractor into pieces to get it out. They are fairly hard and will break if you use a pin punch and hammer. Good luck guys, Max |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by viper on 05/18/08 at 05:49:38 Meck Is he extractor the square type witha slight taper? If so SnapOn tool has a tool that will go in the hole along side of the broken extractor slight press. turning in the clockwise direction will brake it loose. If the extractor is not broken or you are just getting started . 1 Put a bolt in the good side this will aid in drilling as stright as poss. line drill up with bolt to get correct ang. Start with small drill first. 2As said in above post drill all the way till drill go's into open section of stud hole. 3 Don't Heat till holes are drilled . 4 Use a good penatrating oil heat let cool repeat afew times go slow with even pressure and good luck If you have a broken extractor in the hole now rember to only try an rotate clockwise do not tap down on it it will only get tighter. You most lickly will not beable to drill it. Ride on Ride safe Viper |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/18/08 at 19:11:23 I'm not sure I understand what you guys are talking about - drilling parallel to the other bolt, going along side the broken extractor - I just don't see what I'm supposed to do. Sorry if I'm missing something - I'm just a lowly software engineer, this mechanical stuff is like voodoo... :'( The stud for the header pipe broke off nearly flush with the head, so I tried a screw extractor which broke off in the hole I drilled. Today, we tried to weld on a nut, but couldn't get a strong enough weld. At this point, it seems like I'm in the market for a new head. For now, the shade tree mechanics and I figure that it's not work putting a whole lot of time and money into it and risk completely messing up the head. We were going to try doubling up on new gaskets, sealing them in with high-temp rtv, bolting on the good side of the bracket with a nice hardened bolt, then sealing up the other side with exhaust putty. If it holds and the noise is tolerable, it should at least get me through until I find another head cheap. Does that sound at least passable, or have I suggested the unthinkable? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 05/18/08 at 19:37:37 doubt that a duble crush gasket would work - can you post a picture of the situation? I'm not believeing it can't be drilled out |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/18/08 at 19:55:28 http://flickr.com/photos/joshmathis/2504408562 It's a camera phone picture, but it's the best I have right now. I took this yesterday, before the welding adventure. I circled where the broken extractor piece is. Can something like that really be drilled out? Won't the bit just skip off to the softer metal around it? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by northshore_paul on 05/18/08 at 20:14:48 Meck, at this point since you are dealing with a hard piece of steel (the extractor) and trying to get a straight drilling job into the bolt so you can remove it without widening the hole too much (difficult without a drill press) or being off center, I would opt for a machine shop. Remove the head and bring it to an automotive machine shop that does this day in and day out. It may be a little more expensive than doing it yourself but why go out and get another used head and incur that expense. Remember if you remove the head to also replace those head bolts because they also can broken off with repeated loosening and tightening. And don't forget to use the antiseize for all the new bolts you put in, you'll thank yourself next time. :( |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Max_Morley on 05/18/08 at 21:10:34 All you'll do with the doubled up gasket is decrease the thread engagement on the remaining side, not a good plan. Machine shop is a good plan at this point, you can remove the head w/o pulling the engine. Remove the head stay, the 2 long bolts that go through the front pegs and the upper rear engine bolt, loosen the lower rear one and the engine will tip down far enough to slide the head off the studs. with the cylinder intact. Worked for me and others before me. I also consider having anther welder take a crack at welding nut onto what is left of the stud, a talented welder can strike the arc on the stud and fill the nut and bond the whole works together on the way up and out. If concerned about the aluminum, use a piece of brass shim stock with a hole in it to shield the head/cylinder parts. I'd not consider it being new head time yet. Welder was wire feed or arc? Max |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/19/08 at 04:13:17 Thanks for the help, everyone! Max_Morley: My father-in-law, who's an old-school Cummins mechanic, strongly suggested I take it to a welding shop and find someone really good with a cutting torch who could blow out that bit. I don't really understand it, but he said it's something they should know how to do. I'll try to have them weld a new nut on first, though. We used a wire-feed when we tried it. If that fails, I'll remove the head and get to a machine shop. If this needs to be re-tapped, what are the thread specs? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by steely on 05/19/08 at 04:27:43 I can see what your father-in-law is talking about, but it is going to take someone very skilled with the torch. They have to be careful to not over cut into the aluminum of the head... EDM is also another option. When I did the same thing to the head on my GS850, EDM was suggested to me. It works, but it ain't cheap... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining I ended up using very small drill bits to drill on four sides of the broken tool steel. It looks like you may have enough room to do this. Then I managed to pry the tool steel out with a small punch. I then took the head to a machine shop to have the head drilled and the threads cleaned up. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by bill67 on 05/19/08 at 04:52:38 Couldn't you drill a lot of small holes around it get the tool out,then drill it out for a bigger easyout the bigger one would be stronger and might not break. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by vroom1776 on 05/19/08 at 06:38:23 . |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 05/19/08 at 08:41:22 Could see the pic, server down or some bs. 1st I would try to loosen the extractor by hitting it as close to sideways as possible from all four sides and see if you can pry it out. If that don't work, I'd take to a pro. At least you can yell at him if he screws up. :o You can drill hardened steel with carbide bits, But it sounds as though you don't have the skill to do this. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by steely on 05/19/08 at 18:48:35 756671706F6264666D32030 wrote:
This is what I ended up doing with my GS. I drilled it out and then ended up prying it out once I had enough metal removed to get it out. I still had to have a helicoil put in to make everything work correctly. It cost me about $50 to have everything done once I got the extractor out.... Anti-seize is your friend... |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/20/08 at 18:03:34 I had a machinist friend come by and take a look. He didn't think it would be such a big deal to drill out, but after a couple hours he changed his mind. I'm going to take off the head and he's going to bring it in to the shop, drill it out, and put in a helicoil. I figure I've already put so much time into this that it's worth it. I'm going to do the head plug fix while it's all apart... Northshore_Paul recommended replacing all the head bolts, so I guess I'll do that too. Is there anything else I should do while I'm in there? (This is a 1988 with 25K miles on it). |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 05/20/08 at 18:15:15 cam chain and verslagen adjuster check cylinder wear check valves open up exhaust port install lancer cam install lancer carb |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/20/08 at 18:20:27 ;D That's quite a list - I was hoping to ride it again before August! I'm sure there are detail about that stuff in the Tech section, so I'll definitely read up on what's involved. Thanks again! |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Trippah on 05/21/08 at 08:25:10 Hey Mech, isn't this neat? Stopped by the local Suzuki dealer, he said it would cost more than the bike was worth, referred me to a privateer who said it would cost a lot, but couldn't schedule it for three weeks, and then it would be down for 3 more weeks while he takes it apart, the machine shop does it thing, and then he puts it back together. Not looking good. He (the privateeeer mech) has less than glowing things to say about sears easy outs..seems they break very easily. (now I hear this) :o |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/21/08 at 08:33:02 Yeah, it's neat all right ::) Sorry to hear about your troubles, too. At least it's not beyond hope yet - free labor at the machine shop is a good thing. Before I get to taking the head off, is there anything I should watch for? Losing the timing chain in the engine, etc? Before it gets drilled out, should I take any other precautions - remove some parts, secure others? I know it is designed to take vibration in that horizontal plane, but what about when it is turned 90 degrees on a press? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Trippah on 05/21/08 at 08:56:00 Didn't realize that you are relatively close by in Woonsocket. Since I'm just west of Worcester maybee this is a W thing, or a route 146 thing. Best of luck..I've never taken an engine apart so I can't answer your questions..do you remember what the URL is for the online service manuels? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/21/08 at 15:04:24 Are you telling me to use the online manual, or are you asking me because you want to know? I already have a Clymers for my bike, but the link to the online manuals is here - http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1201352134 |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 05/21/08 at 15:40:26 Sorry to read it - was sure hope'n you'd come out of this better - really like to know how that bolt was put in there - I'll bet it was about half strip'd kept got lose one too many times and it got a dose of locktite for sure since your pulling the head and case cover - new head plug, chain, and tensioner |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/21/08 at 16:13:23 Yeah, it's disappointing, but at least I'll take care of some other things at the same time. I started the disassembly this afternoon. Everything was going great until I tried to loosen the bolts that mount to the frame and sheared the drive off my ratchet. I gave them a good soaking of Sea-Foam and I'll let it sit overnight. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/23/08 at 18:20:49 07303039213D3C3B32550 wrote:
It's been tough to find time to work on this and I've run into some difficulties with the frame mounting bolts and that dang timing inspection plug, but I'm finally down to the crankcase. I looked at the chain and tensioner and it looks like there's about 1.5cm of travel left on the slide. Is this acceptable? Do I need to go spend $150 on a new chain and tensioner assembly or is welding another inch or so onto the slide a good alternative? Also, to get the head out, do I need to completely remove the solenoid and the carburetor? I have the Clymer's and it's telling me to strip the bike down the frame, but I'm hoping I don't have to go that far. Any shortcuts to just get the head out? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/23/08 at 18:31:17 If I was having probs with that timing plug, I would TRY a blow dryer, to heat the whole side of the engine case, then I would stick ice or dry ice on the plug, hoping it would shrink a bit, relative to the case. Antisieze is your friend. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Steve M on 05/24/08 at 15:58:05 I'm guessing you got the other bolt out ok yes? A method that has always worked fine for me is:- Find a drill that fits snug in the threaded hole that the other bolt came of. Then drill a small pilot hole in the centre of the stud, followed by drilling with the drill that was a snug fit. To determin depth of hole poke something thin into the hole you got a bolt out of. Then measure the diameter of the bolt, (I think it's probably 10mm) and tap it out. You need to be skilled (or carefull enough to get the pilot hole well centred). With these kinda bolts and dissimilar metals bolts can corrode in and penetrating oil may be of no use whatsoever, screw extractors can be a risky option as if you snap the extrator it is to hard to drill into. If it goes wrong on you you can always fit (or get someone who can do it to fit a helicoil insert). |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Steve M on 05/24/08 at 16:06:40 On the cylinder head removal question, I personally have removed the engine twice now. I am off the opinion that if you have somewhere to put the engine and work on it then in the end it is quicker and easier to do so. Reason is I take about 1 hr to raise back of bike and remove engine mount bolts, battery holder etc etc. and the same to fit it all back. The time you save working on the bench with everything easy to get at means you can do a real good job, without getting knees or back aches, reassemble engine and set valve clearances etc so engine is complete, and then put whole engine back in. I can lift the engine in and out myself as it's not that heavy. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/25/08 at 19:00:56 Thanks for the suggestions, Steve. It looks like the planets finally aligned and I got the head out of there with no more broken bolts or shredded knuckles or any of the other things that happen when computer guys use tools. My machinist friend is pretty confident that he can clean up the mess I made and fit a helicoil. While he's doing that, I'm going to clean the carb, work on the chain and tensioner, start on some other cosmetic issues and then do the head plug when I get the head back. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/25/08 at 19:18:09 Now would be a great time to clean up the exhaust port, a little is better than none.( Read this CAREFully, it applies in many areas of life) |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/27/08 at 15:17:29 Success on the machining. We got the old stud out and the threads still looked good. We ran a tap down just to make sure things were clean and placed two new studs. Now, I'll be spending the next few days getting things put back together. One question I had was about gaskets. Do I absolutely need to buy a new head gasket and clutch cover gasket, or can I use the Ultra-Copper RTV for both? Are the tolerances on the head so tight that I need the exact spacing that the gasket provides? I would much prefer to use the liquid gasket rather than wait 2 weeks for replacements to come in. I searched the forum and found some conflicting information - some people say to use it but I also read a horror story about Permatex having clogged the oil path. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Max_Morley on 05/27/08 at 15:40:26 Did you run the engine any length of time using the old head gasket? , if so it is now recyclable and it is time for a new one. And it goes in dry. What about the one at the base of the cylinder if you moved it up on the studs. Clutch side cover you might get by on and in any case you can service it in frame. A quote from the Diesel teacher where I taught for 20 years. " Why is there always time to do the job over, rather than do it right the first time?". I rest my opinion Max |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Steve M on 05/28/08 at 11:37:42 For my twopenny worth. I agree with Max, because the cylinder head gasket is the one that takes all the force of the engine compression and force of the ignitions. In a single cylinder 4 stroke engine at 5,000 rpm your igniton fires 2,500 times a minute which is 42 explosions a second!!!!! So the head gasket needs to be good, I would never risk puttting an old head gasket back in, the damage it could do and the work it involves putting it right just isn't worth the risk. Be patient and as my "dear Ol' Dad used to say, "take the time to do it right first time". I have found over the years that those are wise words! Clutch cover gasket if in good condition you can get away with using again, it's just holding in oil that's splahing about under a pretty low crankcase pressure, and can be replaced easily with the engine in the frame. We can all have bad luck but don't invite it and when your bike is running real sweet it will be worth the wait. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 05/28/08 at 12:50:24 Thanks, Steve and Max. I figured as much - I don't have very much mechanical experience and I don't know how liquid gasket technology is these days. :) I went ahead and ordered new gaskets from Ron Ayers along with a couple other "just in case" parts. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/11/08 at 07:48:03 Here's an update. Everything's reassembled and looking good... no oil leaks, no extra parts. When I went to start it though, it just cranked and cranked. It did start once though and ran for about 15 seconds, then I killed it. I put the petcock on PRI and tried again. I couldn't start it again after that and ended up running the battery down, so I'll need to jump it when I try again. I went back in the house, but inadvertently left the petcock on PRI. When I went back to the garage, I discovered all my gas was on the floor. It came out of one of the sealed tubes under the frame (vac line?), which has a small hole in the end (that isn't supposed to be there, right?) So my questions are: - since I have never had any gas leak with the petcock ON, but all the gas drained out the vac line while in PRI, does that mean my carb float was sticking or that the diaphragm is leaking? -As for the tube with the hole in it, can I just cut off that thin rubber cover and use a Permatex'd sheet metal screw in place? -Is my trouble starting likely due to the hole in the vac line or just to a weak battery? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/08 at 08:26:32 1st congrats on getting it back together, condolences on it not running. not starting after a long sit not uncommon. most likely caused by dry bowl. best to put it on prime for a bit to fill it up 1st then back to run before you start. Stuck float not uncommon either, dries out sticks to something. rap on side of carb with plastic screwdriver handle. OK, now the rest you're abit unclear on. read thru SW's carb cleaning thread in the tech section to familiarize yourself with proper terms. There's a vac hose that connect the carb to the petcock, make sure there's no gas in it, leaking from it, bad, very bad. There's 2 vent lines, 1 on each side of the carb (symmetricaly) if there's a stuck float gas will pour from these and it's the best. the alternative is that it flows into the intake and down into the crankcase, bad, very bad. check your oil level, is it higher? or it can go into the air box, just drain it if it has. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/11/08 at 08:47:04 I just went out to double check everything... it's much better in the daylight! The vac line from the petcock to the carb is dry. The hose that I was talking about is one of the airbox drain hoses. In another thread someone was describing "vacuum lines" that were capped off by rubber ends, so I thought that's what they were talking about. The oil level doesn't look to be any higher. I opened the filler cap and couldn't smell any gas. So with the airbox filling up only when the petcock is on PRI, does a stuck float seem to be most likely? Should I just try again, this time with the petcock ON and a good blast of Seafoam in the tank? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/08 at 08:57:09 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] go for it |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/11/08 at 13:02:33 Success! (mostly) I put some more gas in along with a generous dose of Seafoam. I jumped the battery and she started right up. I took a little ride around the block and noticed that it wants to race. If I am in neutral, it revs very high. If I'm in 1st gear, for example, I can have the throttle all the way closed and it will still pull me uphill. It doesn't seem to be the idle screw, since, in fact, the idle screw is backed out so far it wasn't even touching the tab on the throttle. Do I have some other sort of sticky carb situation? Anything I can do about it without pulling the tank off again? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/08 at 13:19:11 if it was a cage, I'd say you got a vacuum leak. check around make sure everything is tight. check that vac hose |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/11/08 at 13:55:39 The vac hose is definitely tight. I checked everything else that I can find, it all looks good. If I manually push the throttle on the carb back towards the idle screw, it calms down and I get the nice slow idle. When I let go, it wants to open up. There doesn't seem to be any throttle adjustment to do. The longer it runs, though, the better it seems to get... maybe the Seafoam loosening something up? If there aren't any other possibilities, I'll just ride and see how it goes. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/08 at 14:45:39 I know when I've left the choke on the throttle response is slow. And read somewhere that if you make a hole somewhere it will speed up response. So maybe you have a clogged port somewhere or a sticky slide. Can't hurt to clean it. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/11/08 at 14:50:44 Thanks again. This weekend I'll disassemble the carb and go through everything again. If anyone has any other thoughts, though, please share! |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/11/08 at 18:39:21 I just went for a ride to a friend's house and back, ~30 miles. I noticed that I hardly used any throttle at all - a slight touch would have a not-so-slight effect. The racing was the worst in Neutral. I am starting to think it is the throttle cable - seems like there is too much tension on it. When the throttle control is completely off, at the carb there is still some distance between the tab on the throttle and the idle screw. I didn't touch the cable adjustment while I was working on the bike, so I'm not sure if something else might still be the problem. Does the cable itself need to be greased or should I try more slack? |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/08 at 20:32:37 make sure the cable sleeve is loose, sometimes they get stuck on the head or tank |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Steve M on 06/12/08 at 03:19:09 Hi from me again! When you are diagnosing things try to look at the simplest things that can be checked easily 1st. An awful lot of people get technical and end up with carbs in bits over a stuck throttle or float which could be sorted in a few seconds because they overlook the simple stuff! If the engine ran fine before then float level setting, jetting etc was ok then so it follows it still should be? When the throttle is closed is the cable closed off against the idle stop? Winding the idle stop screw out won't do a thing if the cable has no slack left. So you get a fast tick over and no engine braking. If it isn't adjusting properly then then sort that first, and ensure the cable opens closes the throttle smoothly and there is few mm of slack when throttle is closed. Really you should only put a petcock to prime for maybe 1 minute max when a carb has been dry or bike doesn't start after not running for a while. The carb will fill up fairly quickly as long as the float isn't stuck, (tap side of carb gently with a bit of wood or similar whilst petcock is in prime of you think float may be sticking, the jolt will usualy help gravity to drop the float needle open). You can check that fuel is in float chamber by loosening the small screw at the bottom and checking fuel flows through it. Then petcock should be put back to normal on position before starting bike, (that way you don't ride of into the sunset with the carb in prime position). To check petcock and vacuum hose is working properly pull fuel line from the carb with petcock in on position, fuel shouldn't flow out. Give starter a short press to crank engine over and fuel should flow out, and then when engine isn't turning the fuel should stop again. Then Pull Vacuum hose off and check fuel isn't getting down there. Float needles are designed to maintain correct level when an engine is running but if a petcock is left in prime then the fuel is open straight from the tank to the float, sooner or later the force of gravity and possibly build up of pressure in fuel tank if ambient temperature rises will overpower the float and fuel will pass and end up leaking into the carb inlet and hence the air filter. (The fuel tank filler cap is designed to vent but a positive or negative (vacuum), pressure has to build up first). That is why this type of petcock is fitted to many carburetted bikes as it automatically turns fuel supply on and off by the vacuum hose and prevents the risk off petrol overflowing the carb if you forget to turn fuel off. If the engine has stopped with the intake valves in the cylinder head open, then some fuel could leak into the engine. If you suspect this may have happened then drain the oil from the engine and check there isn't any in it and that the oil is still nice and viscous. It doesn't take very long to do this and if the oils ok you can put it back in. As you have had fuel leaking through air filter make sure air filter is sound and is dry. Have a good look at the rubber inlet pipe etc and jubilee clips to make sure no splits or loose bits where air can get in. All these checks sound a lot but actually take about 10 to 15 minutes to do. If you find nothing wrong and you have a good spark at spark plug then it's time to consider more drastic action. One thing which I think is a good idea is every 3 or 4 months remove the screw at bottom of float chamber and drain it out. That helps stop sediment building up and ensures fresh fuel is present. One very important thing to be aware off is this. If a petcock is left open (in prime on a vacuum operated one), when you refuel at a petrol station then the following is likely to happen. You fill fuel tank with cold petrol from the petrol stations underground tank and put fuel tank filler cap back in, then you go to pay with your fuel. While you are paying the cold fuel starts to warm up, (from heat of engine etc), and the fuel and the air space in tank expand causing a rise in pressure inside tank. The petrol tank filler vent will prevent this pressure getting too high by venting. But if petcock isn't closed this increase in pressure may overpower the carburettor float and let fuel pass. You now have a situation where the fuel level is too high in the float chamber causing the engine to flood when you try to start it. Worse you could find the carb overflowing when you return and petrol dripping over hot engine and exhaust! |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/08 at 06:50:31 Goose it in neutral. Physically grab the part that the throttle cable moves & put it in the idle position. If it moves & slows down the engine, then find whats binding. If it moves & doesnt slow the engine, the slide is sticking. OR, it wont move, & as is stated above, needs adjusted. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/12/08 at 13:39:51 When I reinstalled the carb it grabbed the cable and put extra tension on it. Once I cleared that up it idled quite nicely. However, with the lower RPMs I heard some chattering, and I'm pretty sure it's from the right side crankcase, but I can't be sure yet. When I had it all apart the chain plunger was out 17mm so I figured I would order the parts and replace the chain during the next stretch of bad weather. Looks like maybe I don't have that luxury. In any event, when the engine is cold I'll re-check my valves and re-inspect the chain tensioner. |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by meck on 06/25/08 at 07:27:05 Couple weeks later, so here's the update... I opened up the case and found the adjuster plunger was out 23mm... I have no idea how it jumped from 17mm to 23mm after going 60 miles, but it looks like it happened. I gave the plunger a little push and the thing popped apart. Crisis averted, I guess. I ordered a new chain and tensioner (rear guide). After reassembly, the plunger was out 9mm. I got everything buttoned up (broke a head bolt, but I'm leaving it since it doesn't leak). Runs nice and strong now. I'm going to ride it as-is the rest of the season, if possible. Right now the only issue is that it is backfiring like the dickens. I'm pretty sure all my exhaust connections are tight, but I'll recheck and I still need to do the white spacer mod. Thanks, everyone, for all your help and patience through this ordeal. To think... it all started because I wanted to shine up a pipe and ended up breaking a header stud. Of course, had I not done that, my cam chain adjuster would've popped apart and I'd be in a worse mess. At least now I definitely have a lot more mechanical confidence! Not bad for a software engineer I guess! ;) |
|
Title: Re: Help please - broken header stud Post by Reelthing on 06/25/08 at 08:35:32 2F272129420 wrote:
Careful - you have an '88 the common white spacer ideas apply to '95 and later carbs - the 86-88 are tuned pretty different from the factory - no where near as lean as the later model carbs that are set to make the EPA happy on your backfire - I'd keep looking toward the exhaust - head/header gasket at the head and the muffler pipe joint |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |