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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Slippage after new clutch/spring install /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1209868380 Message started by toddlamp8 on 05/03/08 at 19:32:59 |
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Title: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/03/08 at 19:32:59 My 86 Savage was bought used so I have no idea if the clutch was ever worked on, but the odometer have less that 9,000 on it when I got it (not sure how accurate it was, bike was a salvage title). Last year I started to get the 3rd/4th gear WOT clutch slippage so I went for a full clutch discs and spring replacement. I soaked the discs in oil for a few days and then installed them. Installation was pretty easy and straight forward. When I went for a test drive I was slipping in all gears at WOT. I thought that something might have been loose so I re-installed everything. It's a little better now, but it's still slipping at WOT in 3rd and 4th. I'm hoping that it just has something to do with soaking them too long (directions said for a few hours) and I just have to wait for it to for it to wear off. I'm using Honda 10w-40 motorcycle oil. I have also adjusted the clutch lever several different times to see if that makes a difference. Any suggestions? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by barry68v10 on 05/04/08 at 04:25:57 Wow, that's a tough one. Usually clutch slippage is causes by no friction material left on the clutch, weak springs, or friction modifiers in the oil. Don't see signs of any of these... Did you swap in a v-8 engine? ;D Okay, IF all the new parts you installed were w/in specs I'd assume the clutch lever is still too tight. If you've ruled that out, and you're confident everything is installed right, I'd suspect the wrong clutch springs were used, as in, they sent the wrong springs in the kit. Did you soak the clutches in the Honda oil? Or something else? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Reelthing on 05/04/08 at 05:31:51 you could a little more spring presure with washers - could be caused by wear to the clutch basket - if any groves have worn into the surface of the slots the plates can hangup a bit |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/04/08 at 06:56:50 Thanks. I'm going to adjust the lever again. Yes, I soaked the discs in the exact oil I put in the bike. Thinking about it more, i'm wondering if it is even the clutch plates but rather the metal plates that go in between (I forget what they're called). I might as well try those. Anyone know where to get a set? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/04/08 at 09:00:46 When you buy the washers, take a calliper along. They vary in thickness quite a bit. Also, you will see a milled spot where each spring sits. Close inspection will reveal thay are different depths, so, I cut the OD of the washers to fit inside the relieved area. Easy to do all at once, by putting them together on a bolt with nuts top & bottom to squeeze them together, stick it in a drill press & turn it on, then run a grinder on the washers as they spin. A friend holding a drill, or sticking the drill in a vise, OR, last resort, set the trigger & step on it, bend over & grind away. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by barry68v10 on 05/04/08 at 10:25:01 726962626A676B763E060 wrote:
Pressure plates? I would have assumed they come with a clutch set...haven't dealt with one on a Savage yet. If they were burned out previously, they probably need to be replaced. Certainly wouldn't hurt to inspect them... Interested to see what you find. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/04/08 at 18:21:28 Nope, no pressure plate, just the discs. At least the EBC kit I got from Dennis Krk only came with the clutch discs. I'll give the Suzuki dealer a call tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by KwakNut on 05/05/08 at 00:35:49 It's just about unheard of for slippage like this after fitting new plates unless something else is wrong. As suggested, double-check there's no pre-tension in your clutch cable, but also that those new friction disks are the right thickness. It's not impossible for the new items to be out of spec! No1 should be about .115-.121in, wear limit .103 No2 should be .136-14in, wear limit .124. Spring free length 1.3 in Plate warpage less than .004in. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Oldfeller on 05/05/08 at 03:41:48 Generally speaking, when swapping out friction plates I would always hit the re-used steel plates with a bit of 220 wet or dry paper just to lightly break up the glaze on the drag surfaces. Bet you got some slicky surfaced steel plates that aren't doing very much with the rough irregular fresh cork surfaces on your new cork plates. This also removed any protruding wire edges on the steel plates for the next step, which was checking them for rock or cup (warp & flatness) on the formica table top in the kitchen. Got to check on both sides to see both of these potential issues. If cork plates measured clearly within spec but both steel and cork appeared glazed from slippage, I have lightly sanded both mating surfaces and put the roughed up corks and steels back in until I could order up the new corks and get them shipped in (I reused old side cover gasket with some silver Kawasaki Bond sealant). I have run that way for a goodly while on one old CB160 honda as the gooped up side cover gasket didn't leak and the clutch stopped its mess for nearly two years just from roughing up the plates good. Ah, I was young and broke back then -- I have more money now and generally plan major replacement stuff ahead of time now-a-days. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/05/08 at 14:38:36 I contacted the closest Suzuki dealer today and they have some pressure plates in stock. I already bought them and will pick them up tonight. I should get them in tonight (since i'm an expert now and this) and will report tomorrow. The plates that are in there now appear to have two slightly different sides. Is there any specific orientation to the plate when I install them? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by barry68v10 on 05/06/08 at 14:37:34 Any updates? What happened? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/06/08 at 19:30:04 Well i'm quite PO'ed >:(. I just swapped in the pressure plates and it still slips in 3rd and 4th. In addition to replacing the pressure plates I also removed one of those large diameter washers on the inside of Disc 1. It seemed to be preventing the clutch plate from making contact. I drove it around a little and it's still slipping. I will give it a few trips to/from the train station to see if anything changes. Only good thing from all this work is that I can swap a clutch in 1.5hrs from start to finish. I'm out of inexpensive things to replace. I have no idea what the problem is. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Reelthing on 05/06/08 at 20:11:51 did you check over the basket? should not be any groves worn on the edges of the fingers |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by barry68v10 on 05/07/08 at 15:33:54 Also, did you measure the clutch springs to make sure they were in spec? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/10/08 at 07:46:49 0037373E263A3B3C35520 wrote:
I gave it all a one-over at least 3 times and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Of course i'm not an expert. The springs and fiber plates are brand new from EBC. The pressure plates are new OEM from Suzuki. It has gotten better so i'm just going to keep an eye on it. I may try a different type of oil eventhough i'm using 10w40 Honda motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by T Mack 1 on 05/10/08 at 11:32:03 Do you have the the "wave washer seat" (also called "spring seat") and "wave washer" correctly installed? Also, the first drive plate from the outside is different (smaller outer diam.). |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 05/19/08 at 15:07:36 It is still slipping! Can yuo explain which parts those are and how they are supposed to be orientated? When I installed the clutch plates the only one that I saw the one that was a little larger. I knew that that one went on the outside. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by SuziQ on 05/19/08 at 23:23:04 The wave washer is called a judder spring and removes clutch chatter when the manufacturer deems it to be a problem. Not all systems may have one. It sits on a spring seat and if the spring seat is warped or damaged the judder spring will be pressed unevenly. A damaged judder spring or wrongly installed or missing will cause weak contact between the discs and plates. Confirm that the plates and discs are in installed in the correct order. The disc installed against the judder spring may be of a larger internal diameter than the other discs (Honda). Install the clutch wave washer (judder spring) with the concave side toward the inside (Honda). In the event you have intermixed the plates and discs look for wear marks on the disc that was previously against the judder spring. Hope this helps. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by T Mack 1 on 05/20/08 at 10:06:01 First, if you don't have a manaul, we have a link to a on-line version of the Clymers. Look in the clutch section. See: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1201352134 Here's a screen capture of the picture: http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/wave-washer.jpg |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Steve M on 05/20/08 at 10:56:42 Just in cas you have overlooked it,did you notice the thin metal ring that goes in the assembly? It is a few mms wide and is angled slightly so it exerts pressure. I don't know the exact name of it but if it has been left out the clucth will be prone to slip. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Steve M on 05/20/08 at 10:58:35 oops!!! I should of noticed and read page 2 before I wrote my reply!!!!! :-X |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 06/17/08 at 18:40:36 Thanks for the help guys. I'm revisiting this thread because my clutch is still slipping and it's getting worse. It rarely happens in 1st gear, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th I get slippage anytime I try to accelerate hard. So far I have replaced the clutch plates, pressure plates, clutch lever sping and washer, and the piece that is attached to the clutch lever (near the engine) and pushes up against the bar when then hand lever is pulled. It never got better but was no worse than before I replaced the parts until recently. What else could be slipping??? I have all the parts in as they should be. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Steve M on 06/18/08 at 01:55:59 the only thing I can think of if it is all assembled correctly, new springs, and is adjusted right is that the friction plates are no good. The friction pads are made of cork (I think), and should be soaked in engine oil at least overnight before fitting, plus don't use any oil additives like slick 50 as they may cause slippage. Also you can get springs that are 10% stronger than standard may be worth a try. sorry if these points are already covered earlier didn't have time to read every entry in the thread! |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 06/18/08 at 06:22:03 Thanks for the suggestions but those parts are all replaced and the procedures followed. The friction plates (I call them clutch plates) are EBC and so are the springs. They were soaked in Honda motorcycle oil overnight. I guess I i'll just have to replace the whloe basket. What year clutch basket will fit the 86 F model? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/08 at 06:54:05 Also, there are 3 different versions of the release pin 23111-24B00-445 (86) 23111-24B00-455 (96) 23111-24B00-465 (05) I don't know what the dif is, but there you are. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by toddlamp8 on 06/18/08 at 09:54:56 What is the release pin? |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/08 at 11:33:42 oops meant pushrod item 22. that thingamajig that pushes the clutchamabob in. |
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Title: Re: Slippage after new clutch/spring install Post by Steve M on 06/18/08 at 11:50:34 I have just remebered something from when I changed clutch plates on my savage. there are 2 thrust washers and they are different outside daimeters. So worth making sure you got them in the correct positions. If you have removed the basket there is one that sits on shaft into crankcase bearing hole. Thats the bigger one. after you fit the basket another thrust washer goes in which is slightly smaller outside diameter (3 or 4 mm less). If these are in the wrong way round you don't get enough oil to the plates and that will cause slipping. Might not help you but worth a mention just in case. Good luck with it m8, |
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