SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> rear shocks and spring rates
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1204083845

Message started by buttgoat1 on 02/26/08 at 19:44:05

Title: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by buttgoat1 on 02/26/08 at 19:44:05

I have been looking at the 812 series Vintage Progressive shocks but cringe at the price tag. I have seen some similar covered 11" "lowering" Sportster shocks on Ebay, but they are heavy duty spring rates. I am wondering how it will handle the Savage.

When I compare the location and angle of the Sportster shock to the Savage, the Sportster hits behind the seat whereas the Savage almost directly under the seat, so based on leverage, the Savage rider should place more weight on the shock than the Sportster rider. Based on this observation, The Savage should do fine with a heavier spring rate.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by vroom1776 on 02/26/08 at 19:51:58

For what it's worth, I've got solid struts on my savage, so the spring rate is infinity. It handles very well, but gives a bumpy ride.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Onederer on 02/26/08 at 22:08:17

I think 412's are what some are useing. A sportseter has 150+ pounds more than a Savage, so sportster shocks would be harder, unless U run them on the lowest preload compared to the highest on a Savage. The fact the shocks are rite under the Savage seat translates into even more spine shock, because the wheel movement goes through the shocks and rite into the body,instead of through a part of the frame that is farther back that does'nt align the shock with the spine. I belive most any shock you choose will be at least 1/2" longer than the stockers, which is good, and should'nt be very asteticaly noticeable, and the extra rear lift will translate into a greater lean angle, so if you are currently dragin the pegs a lot, you'll notice it takes more to drag em. These stock shocks are terrible, almost anything aftermarket should be an improvement. I seen some shocks with piggy back gas resovoirs that would fit, and were'nt too $$, but I think they would hit the saddle bag supports. BTW, stock sportster shocks are'nt much better, and the ones on the customs,huggers,low for sure are'nt.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by buttgoat1 on 02/27/08 at 20:39:38

well, I think the solid struts would be more than I want.
I also see that progressive offers the 812 style covering kit for the 412's so that may be an option, anyone have the dimensions of the 412's?

I also see that someone did a post about cutting the stock springs, so I suppose I could alwasy do a spring swap and trim if I found the springs to be too stiff.

isnt tinkering fun?

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by klx650sm2002 on 02/28/08 at 01:33:14

Has anyone thought of using a couple of monoshocks, like this but on both sides.If you get two off a light bike it might just work.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/klx650sm2002/Tiny210mmdisc.jpg
Clive W :)

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by buttgoat1 on 02/28/08 at 12:13:15

This is the shock look I am going for

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LOWERING-KIT-11-CHROME-SHOCKS-79-2008-HARLEY-SPORTSTER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35569QQihZ004QQitemZ140210131769QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by buttgoat1 on 02/29/08 at 05:02:32

c'mon folks, help me out!!

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Reelthing on 02/29/08 at 06:57:19

well if you search around on the site we have documented the spring rates - calculated and measured the amount of lift longer shocks cause as well as the other issues with kickstands, oil sight glass, difference between progressive models, metric bushing shocks vs. sae bushing, and so forth.

here is a basic posting from the time period

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1138678827/#5

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by LANCER on 02/29/08 at 07:03:08

I had a set of sporty shocks on my Savage for a while, about 11.5-12" I think, and they worked pretty well. They were certainly better than the stock Savage shock. One factor is that I am a 200 lb'r, so the heavier springs on the shock worked well for me, but I really liked the extra travel the shock had ... no bottoming out. I was satisfied with the overall performance of the shock. Later I swapped it out for a set of Progressive 412's I found on ebay, which was really a step up in ride comfort...very cushy.
Later I was fortunate to find a pair of Progressive 418's on ebay and so put those on in place of the 412's.
I must say that the 412's made a cushier ride than the 418's, which are more firm (came from a superglide) and make for a better performance ride for hard core cornering and such.

I hope this is helpful for you.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by buttgoat1 on 02/29/08 at 09:28:41

thanks a lot, guys. that is very helpful.
I did use the search function but never came up with the posting you linked, Reelthing, thanks again.

I am pushing 200# plus gear, and occasional rider.
Based on what I see, it looks like a 12" heavy duty shock with low preload will be just the ticket for me.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by skrapiron on 02/29/08 at 13:49:43

I have a set of progressive suspension 412's on my Savage. They are a HUGE improvement over the stock rear shocks.

The only problem I ran into was the mounting studs. The Harley 412 shocks have a 1/2" bushing. The savage uses a 13mm stud. I had to machine a new set of bushings to fit. But my God, is it ever worth the effort!

They were $269.00 at my local HD dealer. It took about an hour to mount them, including cutting the new bushings.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Reelthing on 02/29/08 at 21:42:57

70677461676067746B060 wrote:

12" causes several problems - the belt will rub the guard, the oil sight glass is out of wack unless you angle the front up when you check it, and the kick stand is too short without adding some under it the bike acts like it will fall over.

go for the the 11" or 11.5" unless you are ready to deal with these issue - progressive has chart on spring rate vs. model number -

the 115/155lb are pretty stiff the 125/170lb are dang stiff - more than that it rides screwed up like a hard tail in the corners as all you have is the bounce of the tire - get you killed and bust your back - a proper suspension is important - not just for the ride but it keeps the tires on the ground - grab a brake with the tires bounce'n and you'll see what I mean

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Reelthing on 02/29/08 at 21:45:39

524A53405148534E4F210 wrote:

buy the metric shocks and they come with the proper bushing - the 42xx is a metric

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by skrapiron on 03/01/08 at 08:10:18

Yes, that is correct.. I got the 412-4005C, which is the 11" progressive shock for the FLX, LX, and FXR Harley. It is a heavier spring than what came with the Savage. (being that the bikes the shock is intended for is 150-200lbs heavier than the Savage.)

I could have ordered the metric shock, but I was impatient and the Harley dealer had the 4005c in stock....

The correct metric p/n is 412-4233C.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by vroom1776 on 03/01/08 at 08:26:44

0C3B3B322A363730395E0 wrote:

the 115/155lb are pretty stiff the 125/170lb are dang stiff - more than that it rides screwed up like a hard tail in the corners as all you have is the bounce of the tire - get you killed and bust your back - a proper suspension is important - not just for the ride but it keeps the tires on the ground - grab a brake with the tires bounce'n and you'll see what I mean

maybe I'm crazy, but I love the way my bike handles. Now, I've never grabbed and (rear) brake while the wheel was off the ground (yet)...

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by bill67 on 03/01/08 at 08:26:56

One of the first things I did and the best thing,got the 412-4233c shocks 115-155 springs,I weight 165,use middle setting, makes the seat feel pretty good now.2006 once I got about 800 miles on it the seat seem to break in,I don't think the seat is bad,I didn't raise the front . take about 1/2 the jolt out when you hit a hard bump. 11 inchers

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 03/02/08 at 10:28:32

There seems to be plenty of choice in shocks to raise the back of the bike, but what about lowering it?
I'm wanting to drop the back end of my 96 Savage by about 2 inches, so I think I want a pair of shocks about an inch lower, and somewhat stiffer to avoid bottoming out.

I see that one user on here has had stiffer springs custom made, but has anybody come across shocks or springs off the shelf that will lower/stiffen the back of the bike? I'm happy for a little stiffer but don't want to go hard tail.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by LANCER on 03/02/08 at 14:47:28

You are going to be hard pressed to find shocks shorter than the stock 10.5" units, and they barely have any travel at all.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Rockin_John on 03/02/08 at 18:08:00

Just as a point of reference: The stock shocks on my 99 have been lowered almost an inch (approx 3/4"). The bike can be loaded to about 300 pounds with the pre-load set on the hardest setting; and the shocks won't bottom out until hitting a really hard bump. I'd guesstimate that the shocks have less than 2" of potential travel. Anything less, and you might as well go to a hard tail. But personally I wouldn't give up that 1-1/2" (or so) of stiff suspension for anything, knowing what a hard tail would do to my back.

For handling purposes I find the shocks adequate, but for comfort I wouldn't mind having another inch or more of spring under my seat! ;)

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by skrapiron on 03/03/08 at 05:00:52

I'll contrast that to my 412s. I ride it with the lightest pre-load setting (solo) and clicked up 2 notches with my wife in pillion.

With the solo setting, the bike drops less than 1/2" from full extension (it makes changing the shocks ever so muc easier!) When I'm on, I drop another 3/4 of an inch, but it is a very plush compression. I haven't measured how much shock travel I have left, but there is alot of room to go.

With the 412s, I have not bottomed out, no matter what I ride over. I used to bottom all the time with the stock shocks, set in the 5th preload position (as high as they could go), especially after putting the 140/90 tire on the rear.

The only thing I regret doing is not putting these on my bike sooner. Yes, they really do make that much difference!

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 03/08/08 at 07:17:03

0C313D35373001143136305E0 wrote:

Just as a point of reference: The stock shocks on my 99 have been lowered almost an inch (approx 3/4"). The bike can be loaded to about 300 pounds with the pre-load set on the hardest setting; and the shocks won't bottom out until hitting a really hard bump. I'd guesstimate that the shocks have less than 2" of potential travel. Anything less, and you might as well go to a hard tail. But personally I wouldn't give up that 1-1/2" (or so) of stiff suspension for anything, knowing what a hard tail would do to my back.
For handling purposes I find the shocks adequate, but for comfort I wouldn't mind having another inch or more of spring under my seat! ;)

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Rockin_John on 03/08/08 at 14:20:49

7A46505A7F4445310 wrote:

[quote author=0C313D35373001143136305E0 link=1204083845/15#18 date=1204510080]Just as a point of reference: The stock shocks on my 99 have been lowered almost an inch (approx 3/4"). The bike can be loaded to about 300 pounds with the pre-load set on the hardest setting; and the shocks won't bottom out until hitting a really hard bump. I'd guesstimate that the shocks have less than 2" of potential travel. Anything less, and you might as well go to a hard tail. But personally I wouldn't give up that 1-1/2" (or so) of stiff suspension for anything, knowing what a hard tail would do to my back.
For handling purposes I find the shocks adequate, but for comfort I wouldn't mind having another inch or more of spring under my seat! ;)

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by bill67 on 03/08/08 at 14:48:58

You can take the shock apart,Its not easy, cut off the rod and re thread,It will be hard but put the spring back in or cut the spring or get shorter spring.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 03/08/08 at 16:17:13

625F535B595E6F7A5F585E300 wrote:

[quote author=7A46505A7F4445310 link=1204083845/15#20 date=1204989423][quote author=0C313D35373001143136305E0 link=1204083845/15#18 date=1204510080]Just as a point of reference: The stock shocks on my 99 have been lowered almost an inch (approx 3/4"). The bike can be loaded to about 300 pounds with the pre-load set on the hardest setting; and the shocks won't bottom out until hitting a really hard bump. I'd guesstimate that the shocks have less than 2" of potential travel. Anything less, and you might as well go to a hard tail. But personally I wouldn't give up that 1-1/2" (or so) of stiff suspension for anything, knowing what a hard tail would do to my back.
For handling purposes I find the shocks adequate, but for comfort I wouldn't mind having another inch or more of spring under my seat! ;)

Did you lower it or did the bike come that way?
Yours sounds like just about the rear end I'm looking for, but I don't want to spend silly money on having a pair of springs custom made. If I can find an off-the-shelf supplier of lowered shocks or shorter springs, it'll make my day.
[/quote]

According to the guy I bought my 99 from: Some previous owner paid a shop to lower the shock springs on mine. But at least one person on this forum has done it themselves; if you can use the search feature to dig up who it was and the details of how they went about it, you're in business. I do recall that if you up the size of the rear tire, and then drop the rear an inch or more, you will have problems with tire to fender clearance (rubbing).
[/quote]If it's the guy I'm thinking of (Odar), he had springs made in Sweden - might be a little tricky to track down the same spring shop!
I'll sniff around and see what I can find - there's a lot of light industry round my home city but I don't know anybody who makes one-off springs.
I'll keep the tyre diameter in mind, though no intention to increase it for now.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 03/08/08 at 16:22:40

757E7B7B2120170 wrote:

You can take the shock apart,Its not easy, cut off the rod and re thread,It will be hard but put the spring back in or cut the spring or get shorter spring.

I must admit I’ve considered that option, but I'll probably end up cutting down the rod and re-threading, but it would really need a new shorter, stiffer spring.
Using the standard spring with a shorter rod would mean no sag, and the ride height under load would probably be the same as it is standard (I weigh about 235 without clothes so I’d compress it a fair bit anyway). I’m not sure about cruisers, but my experience of off-road bikes and sport bikes is that they are nightmares to ride if the sag is wrong.

Cutting the spring without a properly finished flat base will undoubtedly make it sit off-centre round the rod - I could turn and dremel a specially-formed seat from ally bar to locate the cut-off coils but still be left with too little tension to make up for the reduced travel, so I guess I may have no option but to pay for a pair of springs to be made!

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by skrapiron on 03/10/08 at 05:57:13

My 412-4005c shocks are 90-135lbs.

I like how plush mine feel compared to stock (especially when alot of pre-load is dialed in for 2 up riding.)

If you're wanting to cut down the shock length by shortening the rod, I'd seriously suggest getting a heavier progressive spring (like Bill67's 115-155). Otherwise, you are likely to have no shock travel left and might as well be riding a hard-tail.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 03/10/08 at 08:22:26

3A223B2839203B2627490 wrote:

And they need to be shorter as well as stiffer, or the shock will be at full extension most of the time.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Mr. Hyde on 04/07/08 at 14:48:45

I've been all over the forum reading everything I can find about replacing the stock shocks with a pair from Progression Suspension. I've decided on 412-4232c's but out of curiuosity I sent an e-mail to the company and asked them what model I should be ordering and the big metric question. There reponse: "Unfortunately we don’t offer anything for that particular bike. Sorry for the inconvenience".

Will a pair of 412-4232 get me the metric bushings for an easy fit?

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by bill67 on 04/07/08 at 15:06:15

Mine are 412-4233c came with two sets of bushing one of them worked. I don't know what the c means .

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by skrapiron on 04/07/08 at 15:08:13

C= Chrome
B= Black

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by bill67 on 04/07/08 at 15:11:45

Right I forgot.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by buttgoat1 on 04/07/08 at 18:46:05

welp, I bit the bullet and bought a pair of 412-4005's, found some appropriate sized material for bushings and bolted em up. I am running them at the 3rd click up on preload and it seems ok (195lbs plus beer weight.....) It had been so long since I rode it pre mod, I cant offer a clear opinion on how it feels pre and post. In retrospect, maybe I shoulda gotten the heavier ones, I will be able to tell better when I carry a full size passenger.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by verslagen1 on 09/04/08 at 17:51:13

Just got a pair of 412-4005's for $130+shipping. rode in on the 1st position, thought I might as well stuck with the stocks. Rode home on the 2nd position, hmmm, who put the cloud under my butt? it floats, but not high enough yet, bumps are still there. Tomorrow #3.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by Dj12midnit on 09/04/08 at 18:22:21

I am a little large but I am loving my shocks (see sig) I ride it on one. two with one of my daughters on the back. In the interest of not getting hit, lets just say I have to do some adjust them up if the wife is back there.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/04/08 at 23:10:26

Lancer said:
I must say that the 412's made a cushier ride than the 418's, which are more firm (came from a superglide) and make for a better performance ride for hard core cornering and such.

When I softened the setting on the stock shocks, the rear end would run up & down quicker in turns, the handlebar wobble increased, when I went to the stiffest setting, the wobble, still quite scary & requiring slowing in sweepers, was lessened & came on at higher speeds.

KWAK Nut said

I hope I get this right

"If sag isn't right the bike will be a nightmare to ride"

How is correct sag determined? Is the goal to put the swingarm almost level with just the sag, so that it will be level when the G forces put pressure on the suspension? Is it ever okay to have the swing arm pivot lower than the axle in a corner?

I am still perplexed with the heaving up & down of the rear end as the handlebars saw back & forth. I cant figure which happens first or which one causes the other. Ive played with tire pressures & have gained MPH out of 3 turns, but that sweeper remains terrifying at the same speed.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by SV og LS on 09/05/08 at 01:07:37

6D7274736E6958685860727E35070 wrote:

How is correct sag determined? Is the goal to put the swingarm almost level with just the sag, so that it will be level when the G forces put pressure on the suspension? Is it ever okay to have the swing arm pivot lower than the axle in a corner?

I am still perplexed with the heaving up & down of the rear end as the handlebars saw back & forth. I cant figure which happens first or which one causes the other. Ive played with tire pressures & have gained MPH out of 3 turns, but that sweeper remains terrifying at the same speed.

Correct suspension sag has very little to do with pivot points and axle heights. Dynamic sag is in short the difference between rear ride height unladen and laden. Lift the rear off the ground, measure from the axle straight up to a fixed point, repeat with you on the bike and a helper doing the measuring. PM me the measurements and I'll help you further. I think we discussed the weave a while ago and you suspected the tyres - it's still the insufficient rear damping so whatever the spring preload the weave won't go away until you replace the shocks.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 09/05/08 at 02:03:40

I've not looked up figures for cruisers and customs, but for sprots bikes and dirt bikes, sag makes a massive difference to how the bike feels.

First, you adjust the rear pre-load so that there is, say, 1/2 or 3/4 inch 'sag' at the back end when the bike is empty. You just measure the difference between the fender height when the bike is sat under its own weight, and when you lift it to take the shock to full extension - that's static sag.

Then, you sit on the bike, and find the sag with rider weight. It should be something like 2 or 3 inches on most bikes.

By adjusting the suspension pre-load, the idea is to set the spring to have both sag measurements within limits. Problems arise with very heavy or very light riders. If you don’t wind it up enough for the heavy rider, it’s probably going to bottom out on bumps, so you have to wind up the spring to compensate for his weight. But, because you set the ridden sag high enough for a heavy rider, you end up with the bike on full extension when static, which means there's potential for the bike to bounce to full shock extension on the road and have the wheel skip off the tarmac on bumps.

When you get that, you need a stiffer spring for the rider’s weight.

I've cut down the rear springs on my Savage by about 3/4 inch which makes it sit very cute at the back end, and it rarely bottoms out, but I couldn't ride it 2-up. It rdes nicely enough but ground clearance is affected but I only use the bike round town and don't mind taking it easy round bends (- I use my ZX12R for that!)

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by SV og LS on 09/05/08 at 02:14:11

44786E64417A7B0F0 wrote:

Then, you sit on the bike, and find the sag with rider weight. It should be something like 2 or 3 inches on most bikes.

I agree with your post but maybe not with this dynamic sag - I'd say 35mm would be close on everyday use and 25 to 30 for performance minded riding. Plus the ratio between static and dynamic sags tells if the spring rate's good - although it's a bit academic.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by KwakNut on 09/05/08 at 02:30:27

You're right - I was thinking of enduro bikes there, well under 2 inches for most road bikes.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/08 at 08:03:45

I'll look at the sag thing. I am leaning toward the rear shocks just not being up to the task. The one thing that I do see about the bike is, short radius turns are stable & long radius arent. So, with that as a clue, do you guys Still indict the rear shocks? I feel good enough about the tires. I just cant see the small amount of wear creating such a ride.

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by verslagen1 on 09/05/08 at 09:07:13

Rode in on #3 this morn, very nice. The neck snapping bump has been reduced to a mere bump.

And ease of adjustment is well worth the upgrade. Using the supplied wrench, it's twist and go. You don't have to dismount the shocks to get them to turn. ;D

Title: Re: rear shocks and spring rates
Post by drharveys on 09/05/08 at 11:53:09

I guess I'm coming in to this one a bit late, but I've been real happy with my Hagons

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/drharveys/Suzuki/BILD0059.jpg

A couple of e-mail back & forth, and I ended up with the right ones!