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Message started by Lazy Old Rider on 02/03/08 at 04:21:32

Title: cam chain tensioner
Post by Lazy Old Rider on 02/03/08 at 04:21:32

In a previous post:-

has a major problem with the cam chain tensioner falling out before the chain reaches service limit, and has typically dubious Suzuki quality issues on surface finish.

I have heard this mentioned else where, but no one seems to say "When" this should be checked/replaced

any opinions on mileage?

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by drharveys on 02/03/08 at 05:59:50

My impression from reading the posts is that at around 10,000 miles of normal riding replacing the stock cam tensioner with a verschlaggy is probably a good idea. Or, shortly after the bike comes off warantee.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Reelthing on 02/03/08 at 08:11:06

Likely depends on how the bike is maintained - if you started with a new engine and kept the correct amount of clean syn oil in it liable to go much longer than one where the engine has been ran low on oil that would cause rapid wear of most things the cam chain included - I have >25k on a '95 with the original chain - but do not intend to run it much more until the tensioner and chain are replaced

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 02/03/08 at 08:37:02

This is a subject that's been talked about at length.

Here's some links to lot's of reading for you.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1192027390

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1176999168

Have fun ;D

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by eanon on 02/03/08 at 10:18:41

When your tensioner is about to go, you will here a loud, annoying "tick" that increases and decreases in speed with the engine. Granted, there are a few other things on this bike that "tick", the valves, the headlight, the speedo, etc, etc, etc, but you should notice this particular tick. I did.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Paladin. on 02/03/08 at 12:15:16

3D39363736580 wrote:

When your tensioner is about to go, you will here a loud, annoying "tick" that increases and decreases in speed with the engine. ...

Y2K, 23000+ miles, no annoying "tick" yet. But as I plan on riding Thumper into the ground, I got me a chain for when and if I do need it.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by eanon on 02/04/08 at 14:25:37

I'm not even at 14K and just had to have a friend weld the extension on the plunger to buy me some time. The previous owner beat the hell out of the poor girl....

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/04/08 at 23:45:50

The tensioner was at 18,, with 15,000 on the clock. Time for a chain. I did ride the everlovin snot outta that thing, too, but oil changes were very regular & at 3,000,,, dino

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/05/08 at 07:21:26

I think there's probably a design/materials issue too. Mine is a 98 that I bought in the summer of 2004. At that time it had less than 2K miles on it - at least according to the odometer. While that could be entirely wrong, the condition of the rest of the bike at the time supported it. I mean, the tires were OE with nearly complete treads and still had chicken strips. I had to replace 'em because of age/dry-rot though. When it comes to the maintenance, it's always hard to know what happened prior to my ownership but the oil I drained out of her immediately after buying her wasn't too bad. Her valve adjustment was still good too. However, at less than 10K miles I looked at the cam chain tensioner/adjuster and decided it was a good time to install the VerSlavy mod. I think she'd have made somewhere between 14K and 15K before catastrophiv separation but I caught it before anything had become misshapen... which probably would have occurred by about 12K-13K miles. Just my guestimates, but that's all I can offer from mine. For me, the VerSlavy mod is peace of mind.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/05/08 at 08:11:53

And let's not forget Stinger's bike...even though he hasn't posted in a couple months :P

His '02 had over 30K on the clock and the tensioner was only extended 19 MM with a few more miles to go yet. Last that I heard, he was at 32K.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by T Mack 1 on 02/05/08 at 10:13:19

Had engine apart at 10,460 (bought it in pieces). The cam chain measured very close to factroy new chain I bought.

Probably could have gone another 10K to 20K miles.....

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/05/08 at 11:11:09

532A4A66646C36070 wrote:

Had engine apart at 10,460 (bought it in pieces). The cam chain measured very close to factroy new chain I bought.

Probably could have gone another 10K to 20K miles.....

The factory spec on the chain stretch is a little misleading. You only measure a short section, but overall the chain stretch is greater than you think. But to make it even worse, your tensioner will have come apart before you ever get to the max limit, anyway. That's the reason for the Verslagy mod...it extends the useful life of the chain.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/05/08 at 11:43:16

261304063E575451610 wrote:

And let's not forget Stinger's bike...even though he hasn't posted in a couple months :P
at
His '02 had over 30K on the clock and the tensioner was only extended 19 MM with a few more miles to go yet. Last that I heard, he was at 32K.

Yup. The sometimes widely varying lifespans could be an indication of inconsistency in parts quality but, as Reelthing said, could also be maintenance and riding habits. In Stinger's case, and correct me if I'm misremembering, he basically says he rides the crap out of it. Whether that simply means a lot of use or is intended to indicate a generally hard thrashing, I don't know. In either case, I'd take it to mean he doesn't baby the bike at all. That leans toward the parts quality theory in my mind. Mine would never have made 20K and I don't thrash it, though I'm quite sure Texas summers place some stress on the air-cooled single that may not be present in other cases.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Reelthing on 02/05/08 at 11:49:22

so how many miles have you put on it with new tensioner?

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/08 at 12:00:42

On stinkers riding...

76716C6B626077050 wrote:

2002 bought it new
Supertrapp, running 8 discs, K@N air filter and Greg rejetted it with a 155 main jet.
Not one repair needed on my bike so far, except front brake pads.
Only use 50 weight auto oil, change maybe every 1 or 2 thousand miles. Maybe $6 for 3 qts. Cheap enough it allows me to change more often if Im interstating it at high speeds on long trips and after a few days.

34, 500 miles on original cam chain and tensioner. Greg opened it up and said it didnt need changing as of yet and we closed it back up til this winter.

Making a circle of the US this spring leaving from Portland Or, across Canada and back into the states somewhere on the east coast. Not sure if the original cam chain would hold up, but bike still running strong and has given no indication its going out so far. Be interesting to see if the cam chain would make the trip. Plan on having 50,000 miles by end of summer. It only had 14,500 on it when I rode across America a year and a half ago.

I ride fast but not hard. I like interstates. I like to ride at 65 to 75. Its where my bike runs the smoothest and I feel the most comfortable.

I've replaced my tensioner with a Verslavy and put it on the second hole at 22k. I'm now at 27k. I recommend dropping the clutch cover every 5k, so I'm due for an inspection. ;D

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Polar_Pilot on 02/05/08 at 15:16:55

This is an interesting post. Back a few years ago the best Board in the world was run by Bert Hesse from Germany. In the years his board exsisted I do not remember much discussion ever on cam chains or any discssions of design faults.
This board on the other hand is riddled with discussions about the so called "design fault".
One guy on the old board had 76,000 miles on his Savage without any problem what so ever.
I blew an engine on my 89 at 15,000 miles but the fault was entirely the riders - I did not check my oil, heard the clicking noise start and about 100 miles later the engine was toast. But it was not a design fault it was 100% rider error

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by demin on 02/05/08 at 15:28:21

I think alot of the problem is that people bought the bikes as starter bikes, abused them a little while learning aka over revving,not checking oil,etc. sold them to move up to a bigger bike or whatever,then we come along and buy them probably at the point where the work needs done.My'86 had 12,000 miles + or - and the adjuster had fallen apart.(Thank goodness for this website and the mechanical gurus here)My '87 has 7,000 on it and the adjuster is about halfway out already.Plus alot of it is riding style and how they are maintained

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by KwakNut on 02/06/08 at 00:57:59

6250475056546E635E53310 wrote:

Yup. The sometimes widely varying lifespans could be an indication of inconsistency in parts quality but, as Reelthing said, could also be maintenance and riding habits.

7E41424F5C717E4742415A2E0 wrote:

This is an interesting post. Back a few years ago the best Board in the world was run by Bert Hesse from Germany. In the years his board exsisted I do not remember much discussion ever on cam chains or any discssions of design faults.
This board on the other hand is riddled with discussions about the so called "design fault". One guy on the old board had 76,000 miles on his Savage without any problem what so ever. I blew an engine on my 89 at 15,000 miles but the fault was entirely the riders - I did not check my oil, heard the clicking noise start and about 100 miles later the engine was toast. But it was not a design fault it was 100% rider error

3130383C3B550 wrote:

Some first rate sense is being talked here. The oil thing is likely to be key to the whole problem. The bike I just bought was about mid-way on the tensioner at 8000 miles, but the cam and followers had gone because there was only just over a pint of oil in the bike!! The previous owner knew it was tapping but never thought to check the oil – (nor did the bike dealer he took it to with the noise). The bottom end, bore and piston were perfect, but the cam and followers were bad; it would seem that a low oil level will lube the bottom end through splash but that the pump won’t be fed enough to supply the top end, which you’d expect perhaps.
I’ve worked with and know a few Germans and they’re really fastidious on maintenance – not likely to let their oil get low or leave it in the sump too long. And – most of Germany is a whole lot cooler than the US all year round, so the oil isn’t being worked so hard and you’re less likely to get lubrication problems.

It all points to the cam chain and guides needing to be well lubed – the problem is obviously not the cam chain itself, as it keeps within limits, so the slack is growing elsewhere. Maybe the guides, or the sprockets, or maybe a little guy sat at a drafting table in Hamamatsu got his math wrong when he worked out how long the tensioner mechanism had to be to take up cam wear. I think it’s the latter – that’s a very long chain run on the Savage, and a short tensioner throw!

We can have 1.8mm wear on 10 links, and the chain is something like 60 links long. 6 times 1.8 gives 10.8mm of extra chain length at service limit. That’s a lot! Now, back of cigarette packet calculation here because I’m at work and can’t measure the bike, but the cam sprockets are roughly –say – 12 inches apart, so for simple trigonometry the tensioner is pushing between new chain and service limit chain 2 ‘triangles’ with adjacent side of 6 inches, and hypotenuse of 6 inches plus 5.4mm. Do the Pythagoras we learned when we were in short trousers, and you get the third side length to be 40mm – that’s the outward extension due to wear, or how much the tensioner needs to move! I know the measurements are way out, and the layout isn’t a perfect triangle, but it does raise doubt whether the chain length/wear might simply exceed what the tensioner can do. I’ll measure and confirm if I get time at the weekend, unless somebody else gets there first.

Either way, things wear less – a whole lot less – when they’re well oiled. Use a good quality synthetic oil, 0W-40 or 5W-40 in temperate climate and 15W-50 in a hot summer, and make sure it’s kept topped up towards the top of the glass all the time.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by stinger on 02/06/08 at 02:53:06

I agree! I used to catch alot of guff in here cause I changed my oil maybe every 1,000 miles or so. Some said it wasn't neccessary but at only $2 or 3 a qt, I could afford to change it often. If Im interstating it all day and rack on 400 to 500 miles at average speeds of 65 to 75 I'll change oil maybe every 2 or 3 days. It sure seems to run quieter and cooler when I do. 34,500 miles on origianl cam chain. I wonder if maybe cause I never ever use first gear and try not to wind out the revs in any gear might have added to my cam chain life.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/06/08 at 06:42:29

Well, well, well...Stinger is still alive...

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by thumperclone on 02/06/08 at 07:21:59

comin up on 9k on my 06 have yet to inspect the cam chain,am ahead of the recommened oil changes. at $11 a qt cant afford every week
changes..

what is the advantage to slavys(?) tensioner mod??

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Reelthing on 02/06/08 at 07:38:12

verslavy I guess - although I haven't seen slavy around lately - the tensioner is changed in two ways - the plunger has an extension welded to the end of it that gives you a 2nd hole to mount the rearward guide which extends the range of movement to keep a chain with a bit of wear tight - the second - some suzuki should have done in the first place - is a slot is cut and the plunger is pinned so it can not fall out

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by KwakNut on 02/06/08 at 08:15:51

787F62656C6E790B0 wrote:

I'm sure your engine loves you for changing the oil every 1000 miles, but it would get better protection if you put a top of the range synthetic in it and only changed every 10,000. Even if you wanted to change it more often for peace of mind (say 6000, though synthetic will perform way beyond that), it should still cost you less than changing mineral oil every 1000, and you'd be getting better protection.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/07/08 at 07:11:29

I knew it! Here it comes.

Once again, it's time for the "Great Oil Debate"...

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by Reelthing on 02/07/08 at 07:22:16

6D584F4D751C1F1A2A0 wrote:

I knew it! Here it comes.

Once again, it's time for the "Great Oil Debate"...

h3ll it's been at least a week!

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 02/07/08 at 11:04:31

I think you've have found a topic that absolutely everyones tired of talking about, even the newbies.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by sluggo on 02/07/08 at 12:02:38

5F6E636E6B66610F0 wrote:

[quote author=3D39363736580 link=1202041293/0#4 date=1202062721]When your tensioner is about to go, you will here a loud, annoying "tick" that increases and decreases in speed with the engine. ...

Y2K, 23000+ miles, no annoying "tick" yet. But as I plan on riding Thumper into the ground, I got me a chain for when and if I do need it.
[/quote]
my intentions also. i just put it in the pile with a few other things one should have around.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by keithert on 02/10/08 at 15:22:56

I'm looking at a bike with 600 miles on it. What is the earliest mileage the cam chain issue starts at? It sounds like using synthetic from the get go may be a good idea. Does it make noise for a while before it goes or just as it is going? I'm surprised an issue like this is still there on a 20 year old design.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/08 at 17:19:08

The life you get out of your bike will be directly attributable to you, you lucky bastard. Most of us have to live with what the PO did or didn't do. Looks like you just finished the recommended break-in. I hope you did it right. Oil is of your choice. Take a look a stinger's reply in the last post.

This is one maintenance item that I would check every 5k. Not because it can happen early but, w/o an attentive ear, it can happen suddenly. Checking every 5k, taking a measurement you can estimate of when you will have to take action. Knowing is half the battle.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029

Here, some have posted their results and I've condensed it for some easy reading.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1192027390

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by keithert on 02/10/08 at 20:24:32

786B7C7D626F696B603F0E0 wrote:

Here, some have posted their results and I've condensed it for some easy reading.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1192027390

Thanks for posting that. In the link it looks like more recent bikes may not have the same issue. Is that true or not? I'm looking at a 2004.

Title: Re: cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/08 at 20:53:40

Since only one 2004 has reported, I can't conclude all 2004's are without the issue. Either due to a lack of mileage, reporting, or attention to maitenance.

Skrapiron uses syn shows his commitment to maintaining his bike in the best fashion. The fact that he's looked at the tensioner confirms it.

I know of nothing different that would make a '04 last longer than mine.