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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Valve Clearance /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1200865741 Message started by DanGill on 01/20/08 at 13:49:00 |
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Title: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/20/08 at 13:49:00 I did my valve inspection yesterday at 6950 miles ('06 S40). It seemed quite tight, and I could never feel any play in the rocker arms, even when they were both at the top. I couldn't get a .003 feeler in there, and some were less than .002. I adjusted them to .004, which is the middle of the range. Today on my test ride, I heard a lot more valve clatter. I hadn't been hearing this before, and realy just did the inspection expecting that everything was within spec. So, a few questions. 1. Do the clearances get smaller or larger as wear occurs? 2. Any idea what I did wrong? I only have normal feeler gauges (new), and not the bent type that are really designed for valve tappets. Did I just get a bad reading? 3. What are the dangers of a smaller than spec clearance? 4. What are the dangers of a larger than spec clearance? 5. Is there supposed to be some clatter that I've just been missing with too-tight clearances? I guess after hearing from you guys I'll open it back up and start again. But I wanted to get your input. I'm not the world's most experience mechanic. I can turn a wrench, but this is my first valve adjustment. I'm going to cross-post this on Two-Wheeled Texans. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Reelthing on 01/20/08 at 15:32:37 40656A436D6868040 wrote:
on these engines the gap gets bigger with wear unlike a shim'd engine where they get smaller as the shim wears Quote:
these engines always make some noise but not loud - sounds to me like you were not all the way to TDCC when the were set Quote:
this can be really bad - the valves perhaps will not close and you'll burn the valve&seat fairly quick Quote:
noise and some increase in wear as it lets the valve train bang around Quote:
there is some noise when they are set proper - be sure they are proper Quote:
I'd sure check it again perhaps get some help if this was the first time ever working with such things |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by rocky on 01/20/08 at 15:51:39 I had the same problem and I think if you read the post from Greg you will understand top dead center much better. I ask almost the same question. Mine had less than .004 clearance. there also was no rocker arm movement. It was also my first attempt. There is slightly more noise but mine starts noticeably better and seems to run cooler, and better. My post that Greg answered was in rubber side down. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by verslagen1 on 01/20/08 at 16:57:31 Valve adjustment is one of those things you have to do several times before you get it perfect. Start with leaving a little on the loose side (high side of the tolerance) cause a little loose is a lot more forgiving than too tight. The 1st time, do it and take your wrench and spin the engine over several times. Then check it again. If you're not sure, pick a time when you can do it again the next day. Do it once a week for a month and you'll feel real confident. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/21/08 at 00:10:54 I took the blades out of the holder & cut them off & bent them in a L shape. Also, putting a little Ski tip on them really helps get them between the valve end & rocker. An offset flatblade to hold the adjuster while you tighten the set nut really takes a lot of frustration out of it. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/21/08 at 07:41:45 2439353D2F560 wrote:
What post from Greg was that? I can't seem to find it. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Savage_Greg on 01/21/08 at 10:49:53 44616E47696C6C000 wrote:
What post from Greg was that? I can't seem to find it.[/quote] You only had to look at the 2nd page...Setting Top Dead Center. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1200196132 By the way, do you have a manual? You really shouldn't do anything to the engine without one, but if you set the valves at the wrong TDC position, the valves will definitely be too loose. As Verslagy said, it takes a little practice to get them right because they are in a pretty awkward place. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/21/08 at 13:08:04 I am working from a Clymer's manual. Piston at the top, both rocker arms up, mark at 3:00. I ran it through several cycles. I think it was at TDC. But I'll get another chance to check it tonight or tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by verslagen1 on 01/21/08 at 14:30:41 Just to make sure you know, Clymer has errors. One of them just happens to be the direction for turning the crank over to determine TDC. You should be turning the same way that the wheels roll forward. Happy twisting ;D |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/21/08 at 15:53:47 Yeah, I knew about that error from . . . wait for it . . . this site! I popped the tops and checked the clearances again, and sure enough the intake clearances were out of spec. I put everything to .004, double-checked it, and buttoned it back up. There is still more clatter than there was before, but that is probably to be expected, since the clearances were out of spec on the low side before I opened it up. By the way, I don't know how other bikes are, but there was absolutely no way to get my tank off without removing the petthingy. Maybe after a few years when the rubber mounts get old. Thanks to all for the help. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Savage_Greg on 01/21/08 at 23:00:03 70555A735D5858340 wrote:
There are 2 places in the 4 stroke cycle where the rockers appear to be up. One of them is more than other, ever so slightly. There is a difference in TDC on the Compression and the Exhaust stroke. They both occur at 3:00. If you adjust it on the exhaust stroke you are doing it wrong....you have to be on the Compression stroke. You might want to reread that other topic so you figure out which is which. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/22/08 at 05:21:32 695C4B4971181B1E2E0 wrote:
There are 2 places in the 4 stroke cycle where the rockers appear to be up. One of them is more than other, ever so slightly. There is a difference in TDC on the Compression and the Exhaust stroke. They both occur at 3:00. If you adjust it on the exhaust stroke you are doing it wrong....you have to be on the Compression stroke. You might want to reread that other topic so you figure out which is which.[/quote] Found it, read it, did it. Everything checks now. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Savage_Greg on 01/22/08 at 05:26:00 40656A436D6868040 wrote:
There are 2 places in the 4 stroke cycle where the rockers appear to be up. One of them is more than other, ever so slightly. There is a difference in TDC on the Compression and the Exhaust stroke. They both occur at 3:00. If you adjust it on the exhaust stroke you are doing it wrong....you have to be on the Compression stroke. You might want to reread that other topic so you figure out which is which.[/quote] Found it, read it, did it. Everything checks now. Thanks. [/quote] You mean that your clearances are correct, and this is a success story? Bottom line? Did you have it adjusted on the wrong TDC? (It happens, which is how the other topic evolved) |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/22/08 at 10:18:59 Quote:
I don't believe so. I think I just screwed up when setting them. The intake valves were set to .006 and .007 respectively. Those are the ones that are hardest to get the gauge into. This time I set them, checked to make sure .005 wouldn't go in, tightened them, and re-checked them. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by vtail on 01/22/08 at 10:40:09 7B5E51785653533F0 wrote:
I have an '07 and my tank is removable without taking the pettything off. I can't imagining the factory tollerances being so much different from bike to bike. I slide the tank back off the rubber grommets, undo the entrical speedo connection, undo the speedo cable at the engine and put a tiny plasic bag over that end as not to lose the little oil seal), then while sliding it back some more move the crotchside of the tank to the left (with rubber hoses disconnected). When re-installing lube rubber grommets with vaseline or silicone spray for easier slide-on :) |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/22/08 at 12:50:01 3331242C29450 wrote:
I have an '07 and my tank is removable without taking the pettything off. I can't imagining the factory tollerances being so much different from bike to bike. I slide the tank back off the rubber grommets, undo the entrical speedo connection, undo the speedo cable at the engine and put a tiny plasic bag over that end as not to lose the little oil seal), then while sliding it back some more move the crotchside of the tank to the left (with rubber hoses disconnected). When re-installing lube rubber grommets with vaseline or silicone spray for easier slide-on :)[/quote] Maybe so, but there was not room to do that on mine. The petthingy was right up against the frame tube, which angles downward. It comes out with two screws, so it wasn't difficult. I just had to drain the tank. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to get the tank off without removing the petthingy, but not today. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by T Mack 1 on 01/22/08 at 12:59:18 5B7E71587673731F0 wrote:
I have an '07 and my tank is removable without taking the pettything off. I can't imagining the factory tollerances being so much different from bike to bike. I slide the tank back off the rubber grommets, undo the entrical speedo connection, undo the speedo cable at the engine and put a tiny plasic bag over that end as not to lose the little oil seal), then while sliding it back some more move the crotchside of the tank to the left (with rubber hoses disconnected). When re-installing lube rubber grommets with vaseline or silicone spray for easier slide-on :)[/quote] Maybe so, but there was not room to do that on mine. The petthingy was right up against the frame tube, which angles downward. It comes out with two screws, so it wasn't difficult. I just had to drain the tank. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to get the tank off without removing the petthingy, but not today.[/quote] My '01 can do the above,.....BUT .... it scratches the frame. I touched up the frame with some Dupli-color paint , then put black duct tape over it after the paint dried. Still a pian to do. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Reelthing on 01/22/08 at 13:06:09 very old debate - I also drain the tank and remove the petc0ck before pulling the tank |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by demin on 01/22/08 at 13:09:15 There is that much difference in tolerances.Manual even says so.I had to loosen my engine to get theheadcover off,had to take it out completely to remove the head.Trust me I did try without removing it.She said uhn uh aint happenin'. :-/The tank on the '86 if I pry on it a little I can get it off,but the '87 remove petc0ck.I made it easy,put a Sportster tank on it mounted high on the backbone. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/25/08 at 06:12:48 By the way, Reelthing responded to say the clearances get larger with time and wear, and I got a response on another forum that said they get smaller. Not that I doubt you, Reelthing, but can someone else confirm that for me? The clearances were under spec when I intially checked them, which means either they became smaller with wear, or that they were improperly adjusted in the first place. I'd like to know. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by KwakNut on 01/25/08 at 09:40:07 00252A032D2828440 wrote:
It varies on different bikes and cars. On most bikes I've found that inlet will open up with wear due to valvetrain friction - on tappets/cam/followers/rocker arms (irrespective of whether it's adjustable rockers or bucket and shim). Anything with rocker shafts will wear more/faster than bucket and shim. Exhausts sometimes also open up but sometimes close up because valve seat recession is faster than valvetrain wear. There's no absolute rule, and I'm not sure what the LS does. |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Rockin_John on 01/26/08 at 00:45:17 5B7E71587673731F0 wrote:
My experience with both bikes and solid-lifter / cam auto engines is that the gap will widen with time/wear. I suppose there might be cases were that weren't true, but I've never run across them. I've also experienced a direct relationship between frequent high RPM abuse and growing valve-train slack and need for adjustment. Big surprise there huh? ;D |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by DanGill on 01/26/08 at 04:05:24 08353931333405103532345A0 wrote:
My experience with both bikes and solid-lifter / cam auto engines is that the gap will widen with time/wear. I suppose there might be cases were that weren't true, but I've never run across them. I've also experienced a direct relationship between frequent high RPM abuse and growing valve-train slack and need for adjustment. Big surprise there huh? ;D[/quote] Thanks. That means that the clearances were previously set under spec. I have to wonder if that was from the factory or from the previous owner (bought it with 2500 miles on it). It would also explain why there is more valve noise after adjustment than there was before. Maybe I should have left well enough alone . . . |
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Title: Re: Valve Clearance Post by Savage_Greg on 01/26/08 at 06:37:34 4341545C59350 wrote:
I have an '07 and my tank is removable without taking the pettything off. I can't imagining the factory tollerances being so much different from bike to bike. I slide the tank back off the rubber grommets, undo the entrical speedo connection, undo the speedo cable at the engine and put a tiny plasic bag over that end as not to lose the little oil seal), then while sliding it back some more move the crotchside of the tank to the left (with rubber hoses disconnected). When re-installing lube rubber grommets with vaseline or silicone spray for easier slide-on :)[/quote] I agree. I guess that I can say that I've removed the tanks from 7 different Savages of different years. Nervkiler's is the latest, and all of them come off with the same technique..."lift, pull back, push left, and remove". Some of them seem to be more difficult because the rubber bushings are dry, but they all come off that way. I have never removed the petc0ck to do this. I usually apply a little petroleum jelly to the bushings when I reinstall. |
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