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Message started by oksavage on 01/15/08 at 13:29:59

Title: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 01/15/08 at 13:29:59

I'm having trouble with my bike. I recently was riding and hit some gravel. I didn't wipe out but in the process I killed the engine and since I was in 3rd the rear wheel locked and I skidded about 5ft.(upright) Anyway, after that the bike chugged real hard when I restarted and smoked (grey) when I gave it gas. I got it home but it would not idle at stops, even with the choke out. I had to give it about half throttle to keep it running. When I got home I parked it. The next day a lot of oil was pooled on the cooling fins. I have not changed the oil plug in the head cover yet. Now when I start it it smokes (grey) and runs rough. Also, at about 3/4 throttle it backfires a flame. Especially if you back off of it and get back on it quick. Last thing it has 18k on it. thanks for any help or ideas.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by verslagen1 on 01/15/08 at 13:35:37

Check your cam chain tensioner, it may have just let go.

Tech section has the procedure.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by rigidchop on 01/15/08 at 15:25:32

but you didn't drop it? sometimes when a bike is dropped they act that way, till the oil gets back to where it needs to be.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by mornhm on 01/16/08 at 05:07:28

Two thoughts.

1. Do you have a gas line filter? could you have sloshed some "stuff" up from the bottom of the gas tank?

2. Fouled plug? (keep it simple)

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by T Mack 1 on 01/16/08 at 05:56:10

Using the engine (turned off) as a brake is not always a good thing. But, it sounds like it was a panic situation and you walked away...... glad for that.

If it does not recover and suggested by Rigidchop, do some of the standard diagnostics first before tearing it apart. Check spark plug looking for oil and do a compression check.

Also, there are basically two gray smokes, light blue'ish gray which is a sign of burning oil (hangs in the air also), and then a dark gray which can be a sign of combustion problems ( ign , fuel or compression). So...... is it light gray or dark gray smoke?

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/16/08 at 07:23:00

756671706F6264666D32030 wrote:

Check your cam chain tensioner, it may have just let go.

Tech section has the procedure.

If that happened would there be an oil leak on the cooling fins anyway? (though we don't really know where the leak is...)

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/16/08 at 07:44:54

These guys are right...

Sounds like the timing is off as Verslagy said, but why would there be an oil leak? Need to locate the leak.

As T Mack said, oil does make a light gray smoke, but why the oil leak on the outside?

It could be a coincidental thing (but can't be sure without some diagnostic). It sounds like, your timing is off because your tensioner gave out and you bent a valve.

I wouldn't start the engine any more just in case you have some loose parts in there...

BTW - Why did the rear wheel lock up in the gravel? Was it because you hit the brake, something got in the belt, or did the engine lock up?

From what you've said, you do have a problem.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/16/08 at 07:49:54

3E3C213D3B3E530 wrote:

Two thoughts.

1. Do you have a gas line filter? could you have sloshed some "stuff" up from the bottom of the gas tank?

2. Fouled plug? (keep it simple)

Yeah, keep it simple...my motto.

Need to remove the valve covers and check the valve timing. You might even feel, hear or see "something" when you are turning the engine.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 01/18/08 at 08:51:38

Thanks for all the replies. The oil leak is that head plug. I'll definately get to that. I keep reading about this cam chain mod. I've read the stuff in the marketplace and tech forum. I think I might need one. I'll be sure to post any questions I have as I go so I can access the collective wisdom of this sage group.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/18/08 at 13:05:51

67637B697E696F6D080 wrote:

Do you have a manual? How about a photo CD?

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 01/27/08 at 18:07:29

I finally got time to tear into the bike with manual in hand. I hope to attach some pics of what I see inside. I don't know how to go about checking the cam tensioner, how to measure it. etc. look it over and let me know what I need to do. thanks for any help, ok pics won't post. how do I post.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by verslagen1 on 01/27/08 at 18:12:26

Attach photo at bottom, click on browse, find drawing where ever you saved it to, it will upload and be here for us all to see.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/08 at 18:13:31

I'd have a look in the air filter, just to see if crap flew up on it & now its not getting enough air. Waht crap? I dunno, but the engine needs air to run, so I'd make sure it's getting all it needs befor I went to wrenching deep.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by T Mack 1 on 01/28/08 at 03:03:27

383C243621363032570 wrote:

ALso, Pict has a size limit.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 01/28/08 at 04:57:30

hopefully this works, still didn't work just follow the links

http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/1163620/

http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/1163609/

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/28/08 at 05:16:54

5551495B4C5B5D5F3A0 wrote:

hopefully this works, still didn't work just follow the links

http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/1163620/

http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/1163609/

From the pics, it's time for a cam chain and/or a Verslagy mod. That tensioner is about out too far. You can see it has an angle to it.

However, that isn't gonna cause your bike to run that bad. After all, the chain stretch is a slow process. Since you have a manual, have you checked the valve timing?

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 01/29/08 at 12:08:16

I'll definately check the timing. About this cam chain tensioner...how do you measure to see if it is still ok? Also, that plug in the top of the head was just sitting in the hole. Should I replace it or just put some permatex on it and push it down good and tight? It seems to be just hard plastic. Thanks to all who make suggestions I appreciate it ;D

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by eanon on 01/29/08 at 13:47:56

you measure how far out the plunger is extending from the body. there are a couple of really good threads in the tech section. can't remember off hand, but I think 17 millimeters is too far out. Others will correct me I'm sure. Like was previously stated, chain stretch is a slow process, so the tensioner mod will definitely buy you some time before you have to replace the chain.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by verslagen1 on 01/29/08 at 14:59:19

As stated above cam chain adjuster check procedure in tech section.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/30/08 at 05:21:32

22263E2C3B2C2A284D0 wrote:

Do you have a manual? Get one.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by T Mack 1 on 01/30/08 at 06:47:15

437661635B323134040 wrote:

[quote author=22263E2C3B2C2A284D0 link=1200432600/15#16 date=1201637296]I'll definately check the timing. About this cam chain tensioner...how do you measure to see if it is still ok? Also, that plug in the top of the head was just sitting in the hole. Should I replace it or just put some permatex on it and push it down good and tight? It seems to be just hard plastic. Thanks to all who make suggestions I appreciate it ;D

Do you have a manual? Get one.[/quote]

Do we want to let the people short on cash or on fix incomes know that Stoner found a library that posted an online version of the Clymer manual??

I am a bit old school and like paper in my hand when working on stuff, but for those that need help quick or would have to forgo a meal or two to get a manual ....

In the Tech & ref setion:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1201352134

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by verslagen1 on 01/30/08 at 07:27:06

Like you I have paper in hand, Clymers and SSM, both are for an '86-'88 and I have a '96. And now I have access to an electric version which is a lot easier for me to read.

Anyone trying to print out a copy from this will pay 10 times the cost of a hard copy. But any copy is better than no copy. Unless you really like to hear us all say 'Got Manual?' ;D

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/30/08 at 13:21:21

150611100F0204060D52630 wrote:

There's just something "real" about having greasy finger prints all over the pages too. Good ol' biker stuff :-)

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 01/30/08 at 13:31:41

I have the Clymers for mine. This is probably an ignorant question but the manual is very vague in places. How do i go about checking the timing? Also, I assume that when measuring the cam chain tensioner you measure from the housing to the end of the plunger? I just want to be sure I am doing everything correct so my fixes really work and I can ride!!!! ;D

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/30/08 at 14:34:45

60647C6E796E686A0F0 wrote:

Let's try this. What part of the manual do you find vague?

From the looks of your tensioner, you don't need to measure it. You either need a new chain or you need the Verslagy fix. If you don't do either one, you won't be riding long.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Max_Morley on 01/30/08 at 14:38:55

RE Checking timing: It is fixed by the position of the crank sensor and electronically controlled. If it runs, it is good to go. Not sure i like that but that is the way it is. If you had a clear cover for the flywheel/rotor and timing light your could possibly verify the firing in relation to the flywheel marks, but in many cases there is too much oil flying around to see anything. Max

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/30/08 at 16:59:37

Time for a cam chain, looks like the tensioner is cocked slightly, too.The cam chain guides need shaped( I think) to soak up a bit of cam chain length. I did mine, but the tensioner STILL came out 8 mm with the new chain. Mine was out 18mm, rode another 1,500, then did it.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/30/08 at 22:28:03

735F466173514C525B473E0 wrote:

Max, the subject was valve timing, though I don't think anyone has a clue from the description of the symptoms. Since he has the cover off, we might find the problem by accident anyway :P

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 02/07/08 at 13:07:10

I'm definately getting the verlsagg (sp??) mod. While I'm at it I might as well get a new cam chain. How hard is the changing of the change. Can a monkey like me get it done. What all is envolved?

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by verslagen1 on 02/07/08 at 14:17:17

Can you do this?

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029

If you can then you might be capable of going further.

Got Manual? YOU will need one!

Be prepared to be down a couple of weeks. Not because it's a lot of work. But because you'll most likely break a bolt or two and it's either pay a premium from the local dealer or mail order.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by oksavage on 02/08/08 at 08:56:47

OK I did all of that when I checked the chain tensioner. What bolts are likely to break? I've got a Clymers so I have some help. Does the head have to come off? The manual shows how to disassemble everything but not necessarily how to change the chain specifically. Sorry if I seem lost I really just like lots of info.

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/08/08 at 08:59:26

The headcover bolts are the ones.

I think that one thing gets forgotten, that needs to be stressed. We mentioned getting a manual and a CD, right?

The next thing is to "Read the Manual". Sounds, kinda smart ass, doesn't it? Nope, not intended to be. Just the truth, in point.

The manual tells you to use specific tools for certain tasks. One of those tools is a Torque Wrench. Those bolts will break when they are over tightened. They only need about 8 lb/feet of torque, and almost all of us can do that with our little finger and a wrench.

They also tend to get stressed and they may break later if over torqued on a previous job.

If you have any doubts...buy new bolts.

Ready for a shameless plug? These come off my CD :P

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Broken_Bolt_4.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Broken_Bolt_1.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Broken_Bolt_2.jpg

I guess that no one can say that I haven't "been there", either, so now you've been warned...

8-)

Title: Re: trouble with my 86 Savage
Post by verslagen1 on 02/08/08 at 10:23:21

I must've all the directions 10 times before I started in.
And here's a tip for you, you're removing more than one thing.
To remove all the things required to get at the cam chain, you'll be all over clymers as all the directions are in chapters. Clutch, head, etc. all different sections.