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Message started by DavidD on 01/09/08 at 21:36:53

Title: Reworking front brake system
Post by DavidD on 01/09/08 at 21:36:53

We've been having warm weather here this week, so it's brought out the urge to wrench on the Savage. Up first is the dragging (almost locked down) front brake. I had added some DOT 4 fluid back in the late Fall when I changed the pads, and it seems it didn't like whatever mystery fluid was already there - I opened the resevoir tonight and saw several gummy things on the inside - looked like small bits of caulk. They weren't there when I added fluid back in November. That might explain why the front calipers weren't wanting to retract.

So I've taken the entire front brake system off the bike for a complete disassembly and partial rebuild (hey, it's winter and I'm bored...). So far I can tell plenty of bolts haven't been turned since the bike was assembled in 1986 ;)

My first question is: what can I use to really clean this thing out, especially since the brake seems to have silicone boogers? The Clymer manual said to use denatured alcohol - anybody got any better suggestions?

Second question: anybody got a recommended source for a braided brake line? I've seen suggestions on other sites ranging from oil-derrick maintenance companies to small mom-and-pop machine/hydraulic shops.

Thanks for any advice,
Dave

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by verslagen1 on 01/09/08 at 21:51:42

I got my ss brake line on ebay for $35. Deals come and go. The recomended company is only $50.

For cleaning, I'd just use brake fluid. I don't think you can mix 4 with 3 or 5, which is probably what you had.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/09/08 at 23:15:06

If the reservoir looks like that, then it has been a while for the whole system...so...

You really need to flush that system. Tedious and messy but that gunk isn't going away by itself. That's what comes with old brake fluid because it absorbs moisture from the air over time. That moisture will rust all the steel parts and the caliper piston too. Better just buy a quart of fluid for the job (the auto stores recycle the stuff too).

(I can't remember the term for a fluid that absorbs moisture. Begins with Hydro or something...one of the engineers might know)

Anyway, you really want to wash the parts in clean brake fluid. I don't know about the alcohol because I'd be afraid that it would dry out rubber parts like the piston seals. Don't use any gasoline or solvent either.

ALSO...don't forget to grease the guide pins for the caliper mount. Buy some high temp brake grease. (A small jar will last a lifetime) The guide pins tend to dry out (heat) and corrode over time and if one of them begins to hang up it will cause the caliper to contact the rotor at an angle. That wears out the pads too quickly, causes the brakes to grab and can make them squeak.

Let me know how it goes. Good luck.

PS - Last summer, with all the older bikes that I worked on, I spent 50% of my time rebuilding carbs, and 30% rebuilding brakes...the rest was tuneups.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by DavidD on 01/16/08 at 13:01:46

Thanks for the tips, guys.

The "outside" 1/4" or so of the caliper piston was covered in road-gunk. Looks like the old pads had been worn out for quite a while and the gunk had just plastered itself there and taken root. I tried scraping it off with a finger nail, then a credit-card, but most of it didn't want to budge. And the wiper ring for the piston was also pretty rough looking. From the fiche at Crotchrocket, it looks like a new piston with both rings is only $16, so I'm just gonna replace it. Might as well replace the 20 year old piston in the master cylinder too, since it's only another $18 or so. Peace of mind, and all that...

Another question or two about brake lines though: Are there Savage-specific stainless-steel kits, or are we supposed to build them from lines and banjo bolts ourself? I saw that Crotchrocket sells Goodridge brake lines, but they don't list anything that's specifically for the Savage. But I did see Goodridge has "universal" lines (that require screw-on banjo's) of every length imaginable. So I'm guessing - buy the line, buy the accompanying banjo bolts and crush washers, and assemble? Anybody else done this? Do those screw-to-the-line banjo bolts tend to leak where they screw in to the line (as opposed to banjos that are crimped on by professionals who know what the heck they're doing)? I couldn't find any assembly instructions at Goodridge's site. Any suggestions on what length line to buy? I measured my old line and it's ~39 inches from the shoulder of each fitting, but wasn't sure how that would translate to the screw-together stuff.

What really made me think twice about these universal SS lines is the price - only $36 for the 38" line, and it's even DOT. Seemed too cheap to me, compared to the $70 that BikeBandit wants for the OEM rubber line from Suzuki. But at the same time, I know OEM part prices aren't really based on reality.
;)

As always, any suggestions are much appreciated.

Dave

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by demin on 01/16/08 at 13:06:28

I have ss on my '87 with banjos,no problem.They are designed for that.It's not like you're rigging it up with incompatable parts. ;)

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by DavidD on 01/17/08 at 08:56:22

So these screw-together lines and connectors are OK? I was worried that they might be some generic POS and would wind up being more trouble than they're worth.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by Rockin_John on 01/17/08 at 10:02:13

5E7B6C737E5E1A0 wrote:

So these screw-together lines and connectors are OK? I was worried that they might be some generic POS and would wind up being more trouble than they're worth.

I've run the hose making machines in a couple of oil field and mining equipment factories, and can tell you from experience that there is nothing wrong with "screw together" type hydraulic hoses; particularly in the smaller sizes. They can be just as good or better than the "professionally crimped" type because either can be assembled correctly or incorrectly.

I'd as soon screw my own together as risk having someone else; who may or may not know how to properly set the pressure on the crimping machine do it. Crimp them too loose and they pop off, crimp them too tight and they are pinched thin and break. The screw together kind you just tighten the fitting as instructed and they're done. 8-)

Just thought I'd add... In the case of any application where the hoses are really long, the screw together are a PITA because of the winding. For short <6-8' they are great.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by DavidD on 01/21/08 at 15:22:21

John,

Thanks man, that's the kind of thing I wanted to hear.

I'm gonna wait a while on the brake line though. Sure, the line itself is only $35, but add in two $10 banjos and two $10 bolts and a pack of crush washers, and it's closing in on $80. So for now I'm gonna do the pistons and wait on the line until after income-tax time. Its not like I'm gonna ride anytime soon... maybe I'll find a deal on eBay.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/21/08 at 16:49:49

I think it's hygroscopic. Why it isnt hydro I do not know.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by NDBiker on 01/28/08 at 19:33:05

Does any one know the size of the banjo fittings that are needed for the Savage. I orderd a universal from goodridge but failed to realize, well the stealership failed to realize that I needed the banjo fittings. The ones that I've found are listed at 3/8", 7/16" and 12mm. I'm guessing 12mm because it's metric but I've been known to make wrong choices before. Thanks

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by Savage_Greg on 01/28/08 at 19:43:28

676D6B40424C5B290 wrote:

I'd guess 12 mm too...just relying on memory though. Hope that you still have the aluminum washers too.

Title: Re: question on ordering brake pads
Post by mau2wu on 01/29/08 at 08:25:24

I am a bit confused on how to order replacement brake pads. When the replacement ones come up for the savage, they indicate front and rear. Do I have to order both or just the "front"? Help.

http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/detail.cfm?Category_ID=125&manufacturer_ID=352&product_ID=13196&model_ID=103&query=brake%20pad

Title: Re: question on ordering brake pads
Post by verslagen1 on 01/29/08 at 11:40:20

372F203F343E352931335A0 wrote:

I am a bit confused on how to order replacement brake pads. When the replacement ones come up for the savage, they indicate front and rear. Do I have to order both or just the "front"? Help.

Pads are for the front, shoes on the rear. Normally, ordered at separate times. If you can get a discount for ordering a front and rear set, be happy. ;D

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by KwakNut on 01/29/08 at 13:47:07

0A2F38272A0A4E0 wrote:

John,
Thanks man, that's the kind of thing I wanted to hear.
I'm gonna wait a while on the brake line though. Sure, the line itself is only $35, but add in two $10 banjos and two $10 bolts and a pack of crush washers, and it's closing in on $80. So for now I'm gonna do the pistons and wait on the line until after income-tax time. Its not like I'm gonna ride anytime soon... maybe I'll find a deal on eBay.

Wow - this has to be the first case I've seen of something being cheaper in the UK than it is in the States.

I just bought a Goodridge braided brake line (complete assembled line in the retail shrink wrap with banjos) for the Savage for today for £15 plus postage, came to a total of $34.
I thought everything was cheaper West of the Atlantic!

Brake fluids - DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and glycol ethers. DOT4 contains borate esters in addition to what is contained
in DOT 3, so 3 and 4 mix just fine. These brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and
are not a petroleum fluid. DOT 5, I think, is the silicone stuff (don't mix with the others).

There are also the mineral oil brake fluids used in some Rolls Royce and Citroen cars - they are in effect plain old machine hydraulic oil, and won't mix with any of the above.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by verslagen1 on 01/29/08 at 15:14:35

64584E44615A5B2F0 wrote:

I got mine as a close out for about the same price on ebay. just got to keep your eyes open for the good deals and hope no one else notices. ;D

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by KwakNut on 01/29/08 at 15:55:57

617265647B7670727926170 wrote:

I got mine as a close out for about the same price on ebay. just got to keep your eyes open for the good deals and hope no one else notices. ;D

My faith in the strength of the US consumer market is restored!!

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by NDBiker on 02/01/08 at 21:14:20

So I never thought to look at at a micro fiche on the size of the banjos. The washers are 10mm so I guess the banjos are 10mm instead of 12mm. :P

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by DavidD on 02/11/08 at 06:31:25

To update: The brake rebuild is finished (minus the new hose) and the brake seems to be working fine. A fairly inexpensive rebuild - $45 total for the master cylinder piston, caliper piston+seals, and a new banjo bolt. The only hard part was getting the clip pliers down to the master cylinder circlip. (well, bleeding wasn't a joy either, but I was expecting that). I still don't understand why an OEM banjo bolt is only $1.95, but the silly OEM crush washers were $1 each. At that price, they should taste like beer.

I did spend $18 to buy a brake bleeding kit from Harbor Fright. It worked fairly well, but not perfect. It WAS helpful in getting fluid into the line and down to the caliper pretty quick. But still had to do the final bleeding the manual way. Even so, the bleeding only took maybe 20 minutes.

So thanks to all of you for your suggestions.

Now I gotta figure out why it won't crank... :'(

Dave

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/11/08 at 23:00:10

0C293E212C0C480 wrote:

I have 2 different "store bought" brake bleeders and both of them have shortcomings. I always end up finishing it the old fashioned way with my home-made bleeder bottle.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/PeeInSnowSmiley.gif

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by KwakNut on 02/12/08 at 00:25:42

0F3A2D2F177E7D78480 wrote:

I have 2 different "store bought" brake bleeders and both of them have shortcomings. I always end up finishing it the old fashioned way with my home-made bleeder bottle.

It's always a pain isn't it? In my garage I have all sorts of brake beelding gizmos gathering dust, having tried them once and thought 'never again'. Even the pressurised methods are a pain - by the time you've sealed the master reservoir and primed them you'd have the job done old-style.
The best special tool I've come across is the Mitivac hand vacuum pump which attaches at the nipple end and sucks the fluid through pretty well, but for the bike owners out there who are considering doing the job for the first time, it's hard to beat a penny's worth of thick-walled soft rubber tube with a bung at one end and a longitudinal 1-inch slit. Pump and the slit is forced open to let fluid out, release and it re-seals perfectly without you having to close the nipple. Works as well as 90% of the special rigs you can buy off the shelf.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/12/08 at 10:28:44

605C4A40655E5F2B0 wrote:

The best special tool I've come across is the Mitivac hand vacuum pump which attaches at the nipple end and sucks the fluid through pretty well, but for the bike owners out there who are considering doing the job for the first time, it's hard to beat a penny's worth of thick-walled soft rubber tube with a bung at one end and a longitudinal 1-inch slit. Pump and the slit is forced open to let fluid out, release and it re-seals perfectly without you having to close the nipple. Works as well as 90% of the special rigs you can buy off the shelf.

That's a great way to do it. The MityVac works like it's supposed to but I wound up pulling far too much fluid through too quickly.

Title: Re: Reworking front brake system
Post by Savage_Greg on 02/12/08 at 12:00:55

This is my old stand-by method. Use it on my car and truck. It's universal, and I use it on clutch slave cylinders too.

Only difference is that mine has a second short piece of tubing in the cap, so that I can prime the tubing before attaching to the bleed nipple.

http://www.lexls.com/images/brakes/bleeding04.jpg