SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> A real mess, I'm in. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1198121172 Message started by pgman on 12/19/07 at 19:26:12

Title: A real mess, I'm in. Post by pgman on 12/19/07 at 19:26:12 I bought a 2003 LS650 for my wife last Summer, she loves the bike but there are two problems with it. First, the dealer screwed me royally on the sale. The title was messed up and they never said anything about it when I bought the thing.  They sold me a bike with something like 2000 miles on the odometer (it was actually a bit less, the title is not in front of me at the moment).  When I got the title back, it showed the mileage with an extra zero on the end!  I immediately called the dealer and they told me that the mistake occurred the last time the title was transferred (I am the third owner).  They say that there is nothing I can do about it now (other than filing for a new title with "actual mileage unknown" on it).  So, I am now stuck with a bike that is worth probably 1/3 of what I have in it. The second problem with the bike is that my wife says it shakes (vibrates) too much at highway speeds.  I have ridden it quite a bit and I agree that it has a lot more vibration at 60 MPH than my V-twin, but that is to be expected.  She, however, finds this annoying on longer rides and now she wants a larger machine.  I am wondering if a set of ISO grips and pegs will help with this. I am looking for opinions here - please feel free to throw them out there.  Because of the title mess, I am wondering if I'd be better off just dis-mantling the darn thing and selling it off for parts.  I have about $2300 in it and I am not sure I'd get that much out of it.  Or, should I try to sell it and explain to the buyer that the title is not accurate?  It is obvious that the bike has low mileage but the record shows otherwise. I am really quite annoyed.  I haven't spoken to anyone about this but this seems to me to at least be a case of odometer fraud.  Should I go after this dealer?  What can I expect - a partial refund?  It will probably cost me more in attorney fees than the bike cost.  Ideas?  Anyone?

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by verslagen1 on 12/19/07 at 19:33:10 I'd go after the dealer for od faud.  Not sure how this is done, but worth investigating. Handle bar vibes, add as much weight as you can.  Iso grips have a weight option.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by Max_Morley on 12/19/07 at 20:35:19 First I believe when they are operating correctly there is minimal vibration. Mine does have sweet spots where it is less, but over all it is minimal. I'd look to an out of balance, incorrectly installed or worn out  tire(s), loose engine mount bolts, loose foot peg bolts, or loose exhaust before parting her out. I've got ISO grips and like them for the size(diameter) and I'm sure they do absorb some vibration. Use the search feature for "vibration" and you should find lots of ideas and solutions. Max

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by pgman on 12/19/07 at 20:48:02 Well, the bike seems to be running fine.  I will check all the bolts and stuff, but I really do think that it is just having to do with the single cylinder and the relatively large reciprocating mass.  It just isn't a real balanced engine (at least not compared to the twins).  I notice that the handle bars do seem to resonate at speeds above 60 (maybe a bit higher) and the pegs definitely make my legs tingle a bit if I am on the interstate much more than 15 miles or so.  I'd be willing to bet that some ISO grips with weight added to the bars would really help things. I just don't know about the pegs and the seat (which she also says is not comfortable - and I agree).  I am looking for a HD seat or something else.  Isn't it the sportster seat that will fit the Savage?  I really don't think there is anything wrong with the bike, though.  It only has 3300 miles on it now (at least that's what the odometer reads) and it runs perfectly.  In fact, I really wound it up last week and I reached an indicated 85 MPH before I backed off (on a completely clear strecth of road with no traffic at all - I do not normally ride my bikes at those speeds).  I just wanted to see if the vibration was better or worse at higher speeds (to rule out an out-of-balance wheel or something).  I know that if I could get her a truly good seat, and eliminate the fatigue she's getting in her hands and forearms, she would probably ride this bike for a long time because she really likes it otherwise.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by Reelthing on 12/19/07 at 20:58:41 Guess you could file a BBB complaint first and see what happens,,, in the mean time... might work on smoothing the bike out a bit - of course it will always vibrate some but things you can do: make sure the front axle and pinch bolt are to torque spec look over your front tire - does it have a wheel weight? - a balanced tire helps - as does a better grade tire if it still has the irc's the iso grips will cut down the vibs if you have not done so at least lift the front of the seat with #7 rubber stoppers - this puts more you on more of the seat - or a better seat     consider a set of better shocks like the Progressive 412-4232C if the rider is on the light side or 412-4233C for a stiffer ride - these smooth it out a great deal seems to me they also vibrate less when they aren't quite so lean and choked down with the stock pipe - might want pipe and a re-jet these are all things you can do yourself without spending a bunch edit: man that took for ever to post! seems redundant now :-/

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by Paladin. on 12/19/07 at 21:00:22 The amount of vibration is very subjective.  I'm old school and for me the Savage has remarkably little vibration -- a LOT less than what I expected or would accept.  YMMV.  The only way to say if yours is normal or not is to allow another Savage rider to go for a spin on your bike and report whether your is better, worse, or about the same as theirs.  I'd do it, but I'm in Los Angeles.  I'm sure someone in Florida would love to take your bike for a ride...

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by pgman on 12/19/07 at 21:26:00 Just another addition.  I do have a HD sporster muffler on this bike and I've removed the white spacer and replaced with two small washers (for about half the height of the OEM spacer).  I know it is not running too lean because we ran it on a dyno a few months back and they told us it was just shy of 30 HP at the rear wheel and that it would probably do 32 or slightly more if it was a little leaner.  I took this to mean it was a little rich and I figured that was better than too lean so I left well-enough alone.  The muffler tip doesn't turn black and there is no visible smoke at any engine speed / throttle range.  Also, there is no lack of power, no hesitation, and the thing starts up immediately every time - even if its been sitting for three weeks.  It would be very easy for me to change the plug so I might do that to be sure, but the vibration isn't really any more than I would expect from such a machine.  It is not a "something is wrong" vibration and it ONLY seems prevalent when the speedo is higher than about 55 MPH.  The speedometer housing is rattling like mad at higher RPMs also, and this is adding to the discomfort.  I know there is a fix for that, though.  The shocks and tires are a thought - one I hadn't had.  I do check the tire pressure before we ride, and it is on the higher side of the "acceptable" range.  Maybe I should try to lower it some.  I guess I should also try grips and the seat modification.  I might look for a replacement seat, too.  Does anyone know if the HD sporster seat will work on the Savage?  The muffler does - I know that. ;)

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by verslagen1 on 12/19/07 at 21:34:00 Check out the sportster seat mod http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1161011205

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/19/07 at 21:38:24 What kind of gloves is she wearing? There are gel palmed available.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by pgman on 12/20/07 at 04:43:44 Wow.  Those seats look nice on there - and it doesn't look that hard to do.  I think I will look for a HD seat - does any year Sportster fit?  Obviously, I don't want it to look dorked up but your bikes seem to have turned out fine. The misses is wearing regular biker gloves - nothing fancy.  They have some gel in the palms, but it is just a stick-on gel pad, not a real isolating type gel.  Also, she has another pair of gloves that she somethimes prefers so I'm thinking the grips make more sense.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by Trippah on 12/20/07 at 04:49:38 If you haven't visited the dealer so often they have a wanted poster on you, you might go in and try for a test ride for a new S-40, and see if the vibes in your wife's ride is truely out of acceptable range. And I think you are rigth about the tires, a few psi down migh make it softer, less vibrant a ride.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by azjay on 12/20/07 at 05:30:10 iso pegs help, dyna bars help, sportster seat is awesome('04 & later), http://w1.bikepics.com/pics/2006/04/05/bikepics-556598-full.jpg debby rode it until the motor blew, she rides a roadking now. my dad rides the savage daily, with a replacement engine, no complaints from either one. mileage on a used bike or a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to me, it's value is about the bikes condition.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by LANCER on 12/20/07 at 06:46:24 I would contact your states office of "Consumer Affairs" and tell them about this dealer who sold you a vehicle that was supposed to have 2k on it but gave you a title with 20k on it... fraud on the dealers part., and also tell them that this same LAME dealer refuses to correct this unlawful transaction.   You may have a legal action here, one that could be handled in small claims court where you just file a complaint against the dealer and not need a blood sucking lawyer.  But check with your states Consumer Affairs office first, they can give you the info you need and also probably give you a good idea of what your legal rights are.  It is very possible, if you can prove that the dealer claimed the bike only had 2k (something in print showing that, like your receipt from this STEALERSHIP), that you could force the dealer to buy the bike back. **Be sure you notify your dealer in writing that you are contacting your states Consumer Affairs office about the FRAUDULENT title in an attempt to get things straightened out, then pause for a few days and see what the dealer does...he may make an offer to help you fix this.  But don't settle for anything less than a clean title or a FULL REFUND on your purchase.  If he does not STEP UP to make things right then proceed with filing the complaint at your states Consumer Affairs office.  If they say you have a possible legal action then notify the dealer in writing that you are seeking LEGAL COUNSEL on the advice of the Consumer Affairs office.     Do everything in writing with copies for you, the dealer and the Consumer Affairs office.  Keep all papers from the dealer and log date/time of all phone calls, who you spoke with and what they said.  A log is admissible in court.  Be smart, step by step, and keep the pressure on.  The dealer needs to get you a clean title at his expense or buy the bike back.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by verslagen1 on 12/20/07 at 06:55:05 I ride with plain deer skin gloves and stock grips.   Also I've replaced the handle bar with an unweighten low rise plain bar. Mirrors vibrate so bad can't make out what's behind me other than lights.  And I'm fine with it.  Twist the grip and go.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by viper on 12/20/07 at 08:05:55 Lancer Has good point and thats how you should handle title problum. I would not do any repairs to the bike till title is corrected. Why repair the bike if the dealer may take it back. You know he will not pay you for your time or any parts you install. Hell he most likely dosn't pay his help much. Many buyers don't pay enough attention to what they are signing when they buy and a lot of us are in that boat. Many don't even know that they are buying a reconstruted unit till they get the title back. Handle this first then fix the ride. You may also get info from your D.O.T. on the correct way to correct title. TMU is hard to correct. TMU True Milage Unknown Good Luck. TO ALL OF YOU ON THIS SITE>HAVE A GREAT XMAS AN A SAFE NEW YEAR VIPER

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by Gary On A Savage on 12/20/07 at 10:32:19 If you decide to keep the bike for you wife, (it's a really good bike and not "too small"),  here are some comfort changes you can do that I've found real helpful: 1.  HD Sportster seat - make sure you do the lift to the front of the seat.  I also cut some of the seat foam back to give me more room since I do not ride 2 up. 2.  Swap out stock handlebars - I've got bars off a Dyna, wider and less vibration. 3.  Floor boards - HD passenger floor boards, 5 minutes of grinding to expand the hole and they are a direct replacement for stock pegs.  This one really helps on long rides 4.  Chain conversion - inexpensive way to lower revs at highway speeds All this mods are well detailed in tech section.  Good luck with the stealership.  Decide what it is you want them to do before you approach them - get your ducks in a row.  Be firm. Oh.  A technique my wife's grandfather used effectively when he had a problem with a store was to tell the store that if they did not make it right, he would stand in front of the store and tell every person that approached the store that he wouldn't recommend them buying from this store and why.  He did it a few times and it worked.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by SteveRocket on 12/20/07 at 11:14:53 I think Lancer is right on the money with this.  Follow his lead and tailor it to local law and I think the Stealership will fall over trying to get it corrected. Just my opinion but Lancers "take" on this seems very good Steve

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by T Mack 1 on 12/20/07 at 13:35:31 Question.....are you 100% sure the odometer wasn't replaced? ?        Or maybe turned back ? ? ? ? ??  Was the title exactly the extra zero different (plus some for test drives)   Also, I think you said you already modified the bike.  It the Stealership opts to buy it back, they might only reimbuse you a partial amount since they could charge you to return it to the condition they sold it to you.   The dealer should have informed you of the title problem before the sale closed.  You do have a valid complaint.... Somewhere you need to calcualate out how much it will cost you to correct it verse how much it de-values the bike..... Or,......buy a used speedo and drive for 20K miles on it then hook up the original........probably the cheapest thing to do.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by SavageWahine on 12/20/07 at 22:28:49 My handlebars don't really vibrate at all, not even going 60. It's a stupid question, but there is oil in the forks isn't there? Seem to remember someone finding out that his forks where totally dry a while back!

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by pgman on 12/21/07 at 05:25:53 Of course, I have no way of knowing if someone tampered with or replaced the speedometer.  There really was no evidence that anyone ever even put a wrench on the thing.  It was as close to new condition when I bought it as anything I've seen.  The modifications I've done could be easily reversed if I really wanted to do that but I would rather not return it because the little woman does like the bike. All I know is that the pink slip - the bill of sale - matches the odometer and that is the document I signed.  When I got the title, it had an extra digit.  It wasn't actually a zero, if I remember correctly - it was just an extra number.  I'd like to think that someone just read it wrong and not that there has been genuine fraud here.  I would post the actual numbers but I don't have time to dig out the paperwork right now.  Suffice to say, it seems like it was probably an honest mistake on somone's part but I am the one left holding the bag.  I do think I have a very strong case against this dealership, I honestly am just trying to decide if I want to fight about it.  I am mostly concerned about my personal freedom should I decide to sell this bike because, with my luck, I will be the one to get in trouble for tampering with the odometer.  I actually enjoy riding the Savage very much and, if missy really wants a "smoother" bike, I can just trade with her. As for the fork oil, I couldn't answer that question.  I took the dealer's word when I bought the bike 7 months ago that they went over the whole thing and gave it it's 2000 mile service (which I think was just an oil change).  That was right before i bought it.  If I have time this weekend, maybe I can pull the caps off and check it - its a good idea.  Then again, it might just be a case of an out of balance wheel or bad tire.  I think I am going to have to ride another Savage to know for sure if this is normal.  It doesn't feel that bad to me.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by T Mack 1 on 12/21/07 at 06:19:28 So, I guess, if you feel the Odometer is acurate, and the pink slip matches the bike, then email the state DMV (Florida???)   A simple note to say that there may be a processing problem should get someone to look at it.  If it's their mistake, then they shoudl be able to trace it.  I wouldn't say anything more until they give evidence to the validity of the numbers.   For Florida see: http://casey.hsmv.state.fl.us/dmv/dmvemailsystem/QuestionSearch.cfm FYI: a sign a odometer was turned back is the numbers aren't lined up neatly all the way across.

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/21/07 at 06:49:04 How many federal reserve notes would the dealer have to give you to make you happy? Just ask that they make you happy with the deal you got. IF the bike is devalued by X amount, ask for X dollars & ride the ding dang thing. :)

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by SavageWahine on 12/21/07 at 18:13:00 Say guys!! You know how you can go online and find out stuff about a car you are about to purchase by entering the VIN number. Does a site like that exist for bikes??

Title: Re: A real mess, I'm in. Post by verslagen1 on 12/21/07 at 20:10:13 They only do that for cars, so far.   ;D

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