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Message started by SteveRocket on 12/06/07 at 14:17:49

Title: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/06/07 at 14:17:49

Got a gas leak this morning so I fixed that with a new filter and gas pipe from the lawn mower shop. When I was on the way to work I started to hear a strange clicking noise from the Engine. It still runs like a dream but the noise is like a very heavy valve clearance tapping. I have a Verslavy cam chain tensioner on there. but I will check the tensioner tonight. There are a lot of things it could be i know and I don't think any of them are good. by the way I checked the oil and there is plenty. Suggestions are welcomed to what this could be.
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/06/07 at 16:53:27

Might be valve adj. time.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/06/07 at 16:57:59

I hope it's only that

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by verslagen1 on 12/06/07 at 19:55:35

You got a Verslavy, so if it's loose chain it may tick but it won't kerpow. A loose chain should rattle a bit.

Check your valves first. If that don't fix it, check the pulley nut. And while you're at it might as well check the rest for tightness.

Check the headlight and speedo too. All kinds of noises can come from the headlight.

If you still can't find the tick, then go in.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Trippah on 12/07/07 at 05:05:33

I think a question would be, if standing still in neutral, does the ticking increase when you roll on the throttle- that would differentiate valve train stuff from speedo cable/headlight stuffff? Yes?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/07/07 at 08:13:15

definately engine related, it's very loud and increases with the revs. Can the small end bearing knock on a Savage?. I presume it can. It sounds like it's coming from the top end but it's loud as hell
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Dr_Jim on 12/07/07 at 09:05:19

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/07/07 at 10:51:13

Thanks I'll try to differentiate the sounds at the weekend I hope its just loose rockers, we shall see.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/08/07 at 06:37:02

SteveRocket wrote:

I assume that you are talking about the con rod. Those are just "plain bearings" at the wrist pin.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/08/07 at 10:48:27

Have you used a stethoscope or screwdriver to listen to it?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/08/07 at 17:11:51

no but I was thinking on similar lines.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/09/07 at 06:42:49

SteveRocket wrote:

no but I was thinking on similar lines.

A broomstick, maybe?

;D

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/09/07 at 10:00:31

LOL No I am not the wicked witch of California despite of what some Say LOL
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/09/07 at 10:11:39

SteveRocket wrote:

LOL No I am not the wicked witch of California despite of what some Say LOL
Steve

A sledge hammer?

An ice pick?

A fishing pole?

A twisler?

A pencil?

A summer sausage?

A tire iron?

A banana?

What else could there be?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Trippah on 12/09/07 at 11:05:04

It seems many of your images resemble THE SHAFT. :o
Which may be what steve will be feeling he is getting if the engine is gravely ill.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/09/07 at 15:43:16

I think it is gravely ill. The valve clearances seemed fine and cam chain is tight . So I have to dig into it I have it half stripped down now. This is my problem. I have a spare engine which I believe to run ok but the starter and its gears need looking at. Now do I try and fix the starter issue and put the other engine in or do I just transplant the jug, head and the piston from the spare to the one in the bike. Does anyone know if there is a gasket set for the transplant ?. I know first I will need to check the problem with the other engine. I am getting withdrawal symptoms I haven't ridden since Thursday OUCH
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/10/07 at 04:51:50

SteveRocket wrote:

Hmmm. To either transplant an engine with unknown problems or fix the running engine with unknown problems.

That is a real tough choice to make.

:P

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/10/07 at 05:02:24

Evaluate each engine & repair the one that will fix the easiest & cheapest, using parts from each along with whatever new stuff is needed. Or, step back & throw cubic $$$ at it?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by T-Mack1 on 12/10/07 at 05:35:58

How torn down is the engine? If the question is a transplant or repair, the repair will give longest return for your labor.

Was the exhaust system in good condition? A leak at the head to pipe connnection area can sound like a valve tap.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/10/07 at 17:00:29

Does anyone Know what gaskets I will need to buy to change the Jug and the Piston plus the head over to the one in the bike. I am looking through the microfliches but I don't want to miss one
thanks In advance
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/11/07 at 04:57:37

SteveRocket wrote:

Hmmm...I just happen to know of a CD with that info on it ;D

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/11/07 at 09:32:40

I must be stupid ,I have your great CD at home
thanks Greg
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/11/07 at 09:37:04

SteveRocket wrote:

I must be stupid ,I have your great CD at home
thanks Greg
Steve

Wasn't calling you stupid...just teasing, 'cause you aren't the first one to forget it :P

Head gasket, cylinder gasket, right cover gasket, oval o-ring (maybe) and RTV sealer...

But don't you need to find the noise first?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Max_Morley on 12/11/07 at 10:08:17

Max 2nd that motion, find the source of the noise before you do lots of unnecessary work and lost 'scootin' time. Max

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/11/07 at 10:30:15

Yes all true But Its hard to find the noise when it's not running. I am not as a competent wrench as yourselves I will take off the head cover as soon as I can I think I need to get some more tools like a micrometer to check whats worn.
I am pretty sure it's not valve clearances or cam chain so next job is get the head cover off.
How easy is it to tell if the wrist pin is too worn. Will it feel loose if I take the jug off or are very small gaps from wear able to make large noises?.
As always I apprreciate your imput and advice and loss of riding time is bad bad bad.
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/11/07 at 11:00:02

SteveRocket wrote:

Can't go by "feel" on the wrist pin...get the mics first. You can get a 1-3" set at Harbor Freight for around $35.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by verslagen1 on 12/11/07 at 11:04:54

Try turning it over by hand like when finding TDC.

And should be able to notice if the wrist or con bearings are loose by turning back and forth at various points in the stroke.

luck ;D

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/11/07 at 11:34:51

Did try that when I was checking the valves. I couldn't really tell .I think when I get the lid off it I may be able to tell more. As always not enough time to get things done
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/11/07 at 11:39:34

Maybe your doohickey, thingamabob, or whatschamacallit is loose ::)

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Dr_Jim on 12/11/07 at 11:55:07

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Dr_Jim on 12/11/07 at 13:33:39

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by verslagen1 on 12/11/07 at 14:22:32

No, we only opened the clutch cover to replace the adjuster.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/11/07 at 15:35:37

Ah, Dr_Jim beat me to the photos...Good job.

I'd still be looking very closely at everything. I don't believe that your noise is coming from the con rod. That would be a first here.

Any thoughts on the cam gear?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamGearTDC_1581.jpg

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/11/07 at 15:59:45

Yes I did remove the botl that holds the decompression system . If I remember the shaft came out and I undid it to get it back in. Very good Idea as the sound was like that. Once again thanks for these insights.
Greg, my do hickey is ok at the moment. lol
take care
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Polar_Pilot on 12/11/07 at 18:06:21

how many miles in your Savage?
You seem to be looking at issues which come on very high mileage bikes.
Look for something simple before jumping to big issues like worn wrist pin.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/11/07 at 20:13:53

24,000 miles on the bike. 12.000 of them mine. I think it may well be in the Rocker arms .

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/12/07 at 07:04:02

Was the decompression solenoid adjusted to 3-5 mm of free play? Or did any of it get loose?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/12/07 at 09:18:33

I dont think i did anything to the solonoid only the part under the head cover. If I can get home early enough tonight (It's a long drive for me) I will get the top off tonight.
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/12/07 at 11:13:34

Can't go by "feel" on the wrist pin...get the mics first. You can get a 1-3" set at Harbor Freight for around $35.

Any chance you have a link to the micrometers as I have searched for about an hour and even phoned them to no avail

Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by youzguyz on 12/12/07 at 11:45:48

search for calipers

calipers (http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=caliper)

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/13/07 at 07:08:48

4C6B7A697A4D707C747A6B1F0 wrote:

You are right. The darn things aren't shown online. If you go into the store they will be there...maybe...it might depend on the branch. I know of 2 here that have them.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/13/07 at 07:10:38

26302A25382A26255F0 wrote:

search for calipers

calipers (http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=caliper)

That link showed me 10 pairs of "calipers", no mics :P

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Dr Jim on 12/13/07 at 07:21:55

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by verslagen1 on 12/13/07 at 07:28:44

Sears used to have micrometers. Haven't looked for them in a long time, and stumbled across them when I did.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/13/07 at 12:48:41

Looks like Doohickey is winning the poll ;D

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/15/07 at 18:12:26

Pulled the head cover off today can't see anything wrong. It sounds similar when I tap the exhaust rocker against the decompresser but thats not too scientific a test. There was plenty of oil under the cams. I turned it over by hand a few times but can't see or hear anything catching or banging. i will get a better look tomorrow
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/16/07 at 04:44:14

Did you check the contact of the decompression cam and the exhaust rocker before you took it apart?

How does the cam gear look?

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/16/07 at 14:02:39

Well mystery is solved. The rocker arm was worn very badly and has made some marks on the the camshaft. I will take some pictures and post them and maybe send them to Greg if he wants them for inclusion into next installment of the companion cd. I think I will take the camshaft and rockers from my spare engine and put it all back together. I recon it will be a Lancer camshaft in the future Also As the clutch was slipping I am looking at that too. There is some meat on the plates but I am not sure if they are good for a while or not.
thanks for every bodies help . I will keep you informed.
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/17/07 at 08:16:32

There will be a little wear on the rockers anyway, but if you get a new camshaft you'll want to buy new ones....But! You said the valve lash clearance was okay!

If you have wear on the rockers but the clearance was good, then where did the noise come from? After all, the majority of rocker wear is from contact with the highest lift of the cam lobe. The valve lash clearance is measured at TDC on the low side of the cam when there is supposed to be no contact...there never is a gap on the high side because the valves are open under spring pressure...

Sorry. I don't think that you found it, yet. Keep looking.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Carl on 12/17/07 at 09:08:12

I Agree with Savage_Greg, You have not found the noise yet.
The valve gear and camshaft on my Bike were very bad, yet it had noise only on very light cruise or overrun. Power on and Power off it was quiet.
I still have the noise on light cruise/overun even after fitting new camshaft, Guides, Tensioner and Valve gear. I believe on mine the head is worn and the Camshaft is floating and rattling on light cruise/overun operation.

regards
Carl

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/17/07 at 09:17:22

now I am confounded. What you say is definitely the rocker is worn concave where is hit the camshaft. and the exhaust camshaft lob seems worn on the back side after it has opened the valve. Morw down time I suppose
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/17/07 at 10:53:33

Look, I know what you're saying, and I know you are really hopeful to find the problem, but I know that can't be the loud noise you heard. If the valve clearance was good, it can't be the rocker, even if there is wear. Below is a photo from my CD showing a wear that is similar to what you have. I had a bad cam too, but I DIDN"T have a loud noise...

...in fact, the only reason I opened the engine up was to take photos for my CD ;D

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Cam_Rocker_Damage.jpg

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/17/07 at 11:05:53

i am stumped if that is not the noise. How do do set the gap for the decompresser. Is it just by moving the position of the arm?. I will find it in the end and of course it's all good practice (thinking positive). It must make me a better mechanic lol.
Steve

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/17/07 at 11:11:30

Didn't you get a copy of the CD? There's a whole series of photographs...Besides that, you need a manual to be a better mechanic.

Hint: You don't set the "gap". You set the solenoid "end play".

:P

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/17/07 at 12:29:59

Yes indeed the Cd was very helpful to me on Sunday. I have the Clymers manual but not the Suzuki Service manual.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket on 12/17/07 at 12:31:43

I am at work at the moment so don't have access to any documentation from here. Thats why I asked about the decompresser.

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by Savage_Greg on 12/17/07 at 12:39:55

4166776477407D71797766120 wrote:

Yes indeed the Cd was very helpful to me on Sunday. I have the Clymers manual but not the Suzuki Service manual.

You don't really need the SSM, but the CD shows where you measure the decompression solenoid. Got a picture of my dirty hand with a scale :P

We'll just wait for you to get home then...

Title: Re: Things not sounding too good
Post by SteveRocket1 on 12/24/07 at 12:47:12

I have both engines dissembled and one thing I have noticed is one camshaft has RBD stamped on it and the other has RHD. Just wondered if there is any significance in this. Reassembly starts soon
Steve