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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> External fuel filter /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1196479425 Message started by Arthur on 11/30/07 at 19:23:45 |
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Title: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 11/30/07 at 19:23:45 I've done a search on the tech reference and could find no answer to what kind of external fuel filter fits well on my 96 Savage. The one recommended by Clymer is the wrong hose I.D. and too bulky anyway. I went through the inventory of a local parts store and they are all too bulky. I could fit one of them in, but it would hang at odd angles to the petcock and carb. configuration and stick out a little from the side of the frame, where my leg could brush up against it. Has anyone found a tiny external filter that would tuck in nicely between the carb and petcock? I want to use one after finding silt in my carb bowl, which had passed through the internal tank filter. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by demin on 11/30/07 at 19:29:31 Look for a lawnmower filter.I have one on my '86 it's clear,has a straight inlet and a 90 degree outlet it's only about 2" long.It was about $5.00. http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/1018389/ Click on pic to enlarge,you can kinda see it |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by barry68v10 on 12/01/07 at 06:24:09 There are suitable fuel filters at jcwhitney.com for motorcycles under 950cc's. No weird angles or extra bulk, only about 1" long... |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/01/07 at 06:37:39 You have to look for filters at bike shops. There are lots of small ones. Auto parts stores carry filters that are too big. Most likely because autos use a higher volume of fuel, involve a fuel pump and may be harder to service anyway. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/01/07 at 06:53:15 small clear plastic type shaped like a top on suzi got it at the local motorcycle acessorys store $2...can see picture @ jpcycles.com they charge $5.99 |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by bill67 on 12/01/07 at 07:13:27 Why do you need another filter ? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/01/07 at 07:38:23 Because the carburetor bowl had a small amount of silt in the bottom of it, and because the internal tank filter's screen design is not fine enough to stop extremely small particulate matter from passing through. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/01/07 at 08:25:14 bill67 wrote:
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by barry68v10 on 12/01/07 at 11:01:35 Arthur wrote:
Actually, you may need an automotive type filter to catch the size particles you want to get. When I first got my bike, it had lots of rust in the tank. I used a VW Beetle fuel filter with a paper element to catch all the "carp", then switched to a m/c inline filter which is really just a screen. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/01/07 at 14:19:02 barry68v10 wrote:
1 st mod i did was the fuel filter..carp comes from the pump,nozzle, and other sources... |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Oldfeller on 12/01/07 at 15:45:25 Go to any auto parts store and ask them where the in line fuel filters are. They are all big enough to process our small fuel feed amount. Pick one with a clear body so you can see if you have gas or not (you'll need this feature when chasing petcock problems). Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/01/07 at 19:00:40 I did just that but they are all too big to fit between the carb and petcock without long hose pieces or right angle fuel line fittings, all of which create an awkward mess alongside the engine and which stick out from the side of the bike. I need a tiny filter the likes of which have been suggested in earlier posts. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/02/07 at 07:33:49 Hey Reelthing, what's all this CARP in here? Anyway, just go to a bike shop or web site and get an inline filter. There are lots of different sizes to choose from and they will all catch a lot of CRAP. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Oldfeller on 12/02/07 at 13:13:13 Wow. Can't see it, huh? I'm sitting here busily fitting a Chinese red dot scope on to a hundred plus year old Austrian-Hungarian empire calvary trooper's .331 caliber saddle-carbine and you want me to stop what I'm doing and go take you a picture of an in-line fuel filter hose routing? Of course you can't stick a fuel filter in the little short existing line that you've got -- think about it a bit, the filter is almost as long as your existing fuel line. Improvise a bit, be creative. http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=529365 All I did was take about 8 inches of standard old stiff automotive fuel hose, come out the side of the carburetor, go up under the seat, come about in a loop and come back to the outlet side of the large clear fuel filter. Loop is big so the hose never gets crimped, ever. A short piece of hose goes from the petc0ck to the inlet side of the fuel filter. It's a piece of cake compared to putting optics on a straight pull goose-stepper saddle carbine, believe me. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/02/07 at 17:06:09 It would have been easy to loop a long length of fuel line and use an automobile type see through filter, but the last thing I want is un-necessary fuel line looped around any part of an exposed motorcycle, especially since mine has a bouncing springer seat. The small right angle paper element type filters talked about in the above posts allow for a short hosed, tight installation. But thanks for the suggestion. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Oldfeller on 12/03/07 at 03:29:11 I'm glad it was easy, that's my very favorite way to do things. As far as clearance to your springer seat goes -- what are you going to do with the rest of those nasty hoses and electrical wires that run under the seat area? They are all in danger from your seat springs and all that frantic pinching and mashing that is going on between the coils. Does your pinching action go below the frame rails? That hose routing doesn't go above them, you know. If you needed, you could use a cable tie or two for reassurance. I think Bary68v10 was the first to mention that you do want an automotive pleated filter and the reason why -- most bike-type filters are just a piece of fine brass screen no bigger than a 50 cent piece. Some of the small auto filters use the same brass screen material, just a bit more of it. We have all seen what happens to the same sort of screening on the petc0ck itself -- it gets plugged up with trash and varnish over time. All of the right angle filter types I have seen use it. You can plug these screen-type filters up over the course of a year or three, then you are chasing diagnositcs between a potential petcOck problem and a plugged fuel filter. A big-assed clear auto fuel filter with a pleated paper filter element (1) filters a lot finer than a screen can (2) holds 1000 times more trash before becoming plugged up (3) can be visually inspected at a glance to see what's going on - shows trash and water, ect (4) shows up as partially fuel empty if your petc0ck is having vacuum issues which results in poor fuel flow (a diagnostic aid) and costs the same as the smaller right angle filters. In any case, you're welcome. My pleasure. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/03/07 at 08:34:23 Does a $5 filter really require this much discussion? Come on. You all are making this sound like a major engineering decision. We trying to get 100K miles out of a fuel filter? Get short fuel filter at bike shop. Cut fuel line. Install fuel filter. Done. KISS ::) |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by bill67 on 12/03/07 at 13:03:57 I have never put and external fuel filter on my bikes and I don't no anyone that has, and I've never had a problem,I would think if they were need the motorcycle companies would put them on. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/03/07 at 16:07:13 Savage_Greg wrote:
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/03/07 at 16:08:00 bill67 wrote:
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/03/07 at 16:10:27 arthur have you found a suitable filter yet??if not p.m. me and i'll send you one just to keep THE savage greg in his cage!!!lol :-* |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/03/07 at 20:00:56 Okay, okay, yes I got the filter and now this matter can be put to rest. However, I have one of those 1950's toilet paper oil filter kits with the metal pot and lid assembly in which you place a roll of toilet paper and route your oil lines to and from it. Its supposed to REALLY clean the oil better than any conventional filter. I'm thinking about plumbing it into my Savage, perhaps with a Suzuki decal on its side so it looks factory original. Would anyone care to comment on this? Savage Greg? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by verslagen1 on 12/03/07 at 21:08:15 Toilet paper might work for those old cages with high pressure oil systems, but you only got a few psi to work with. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/03/07 at 21:58:48 Arthur wrote:
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/04/07 at 05:59:08 Heh I was joking! I would never put that ugly monstrosity on my Savage. Anyway they had the reputation of having the toilet paper disintegrate into tiny bits which passed through the screen at the bottom of the canister and clogged oil passages. The question is, Charmin or generic brand? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by LANCER on 12/04/07 at 06:28:09 My dad had one of those on his pickup when I was a kid and he seemed to like it a lot. I remember him changing the oil and peeling off some of the paper from the roll in order to get it to fit. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/04/07 at 07:18:33 thumperclone wrote:
Just trying to provide a little impetus and being proactive. It is a no brainer, as most of you know. If Arthur wants to install one, then he just needs to know that...without a lot of "over thinking" about it. Besides, the biggest confusion was caused by going to an auto parts store in the first place. Most don't even carry motorcycle fuel line...unless you want to use stuff intended for fuel injection. Of course, the question that hasn't been asked is "Why do you need it?" If there is that much CARP in the fuel, there's a bigger issue to worry about... KISS back at ya :-* :-* :-* After all, my old petc0ck filter works just fine anyway. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Petc0ck_6.jpg |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/04/07 at 07:28:57 Arthur wrote:
Yea, right. I wonder how much pressure drop that'll give that "high performance" oil pump, but I'll love to see it when you're done :P What about your dirty gas tank? There is always a little Carp in the bottom of a Carb. That's a good reason for a bowl drain anyway. Why do you need a filter? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/07 at 08:16:53 What's better natural or synthetic filter material? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Rob on 12/04/07 at 08:47:47 I have a reusable filter on mine that you just clean and reinstall. It's described on the JP Cycles site as having a stainless steel element but it's actually a brass element. I switched to this because I'd found the tubes on each end of the disposable plastic filters began to bend over time (possibly due to heat from the engine in the summer months here) and one even developed a crack that sprayed fuel onto my thigh. http://img.jpcycles.com/main/e77e017e-c243-4720-8b63-3e31f2addf16.jpeg If you zoom in on the image below, you get an idea as to how it looks on my bike. http://rob.savageriders.com/images/Nadine%202007-10-13%20002.jpg |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/04/07 at 10:42:50 Nice looking filter, but that requires more fuel line (under and over carb?) You can still get a short one and just cut out about an inch of hose. You had one break? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Rob on 12/04/07 at 12:20:03 Savage_Greg wrote:
I have reinforced clear fuel line to let me see flow (though it's not much more than a trickle in actual use) as the filter isn't one of the glass types. The Amal's fuel tap is a banjo fitting that can be pointed to either side of the carb and I have it on the left. Yes, several of the clear plastic filters ended up bending the tubing at one end or the other. This was probably due to a little tension on the fuel line and enough heat over time to allow the plastic to bend. In one case it bent enough to form a hairline crack that sprayed fuel onto the inside of my thigh at high revs. It didn't leak at idle. I decided I'd prefer something sturdier and I like the idea of reusability too. I just clean when I clean my K&N air filter. I also keep spare fuel line in my tool roll. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/04/07 at 17:49:04 Savage_Greg wrote:
I want the filter because there was a small amount of a fine brown powder in the bottom of my carb fuel bowl. If this continues and adds up it could work its way through the carb and possibly eventually clog some part of it. In any case nothing has any business being in the carb except gas. The tank filter screen is too coarse to stop this fine dirt. The tank is spotless internally although I flushed it out anyway. You'd never see such a coarse screen design used as a factory filter before a car carburetor or fuel pump, so why tolerate it for a motorcycle carb? I've worked for an oil company who supplies gasoline and you would be surprised at the fine dirt that gets into the gas during all the various transport and pumping stages. The oil companies are aware of it and could care less. They know your automobile filter will catch it. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Oldfeller on 12/05/07 at 01:51:03 Arthur provides us yet another indication of the need for the much finer filtration levels provided by folded paper type filtration. BTW, my stock petcOck filter screen was partially plugged up with brownish varnish deposits last time I took my petcOck off. I think the fine brown powder he is finding in his tank are solids that parcipitate out of the gasoline (leftovers from the cracking process that are coming out of solution over time). I had the same stuff inside my tank. Some refer to the brown stuff as rust particles, but I don't have any physical rust on the sides of my tank that I can tell and rust wouldn't coat a filter screen like this brown stuff can. The screen type filters don't always cut it as varnish and fuel oxidation build up on screen surfaces (mainly because bikes can sit too much in the cold part of the year). The little bits of varnish powder that do make it through the screen mesh aren't going to do your fine jets any good and they are going to build up in your float bowl. But opinions do vary. As do the approaches to keeping all the trash out of your carburetor. And we wouldn't be having this somewhat detailed discussion if it were springtime and the weather was nice, because we would all be out riding. Winter can get boring. Lancer, any news on the cam chain order? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/05/07 at 07:06:19 Arthur wrote:
What can I say? You've had your mind made up. Never mind anyone else's experience. Right? Good luck. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/05/07 at 07:44:42 Oldfeller wrote:
Wow. I never dreamed that I'd beens so lucky during 40 years of riding. How ever did I escape all these nightmare scenarios in all my bikes? I guess the Savage is a lot more "high tech" than even I knew. :P A lot of the stuff in your tank has to do with past maintenance practices on your bike. Water, old gas and dirt. The photo above is not a photo of a petc0ck from Ron Ayers. That is mine after 7 years of use. See any varnish? (I know, I must have cleaned it up, right?) Sure you get some dirt from the fuel, but the fact that things were stuck in your filter proves that it does it's job. Stuff that goes through the screen is actually able to go through your carb, too. Let's not just talk about "fine" jets, either. Let's be more accurate. A main jet orifice (#145-155) is from 1.45 to 1.55 MM which means that the diameter is .057 to .061". That's almost 1/16". If you have stuff clogging the main jet, you've got bigger problems to worry about...(I'll let you calculate the other jets and orifices) IMHO, if you want to over engineer it, that's just fine. However, that's doesn't mean that it's necessary to keep your carb clean. There is a drain on the bottom of your carb, too. Open it up from time to time, and let that fine stuff out. Oh...and once you feel that your fuel is spotless and clear, don't forget that water still goes through the tank and inline filters. Water can condense from the air or come out of the gas pump, so regular maintenance is still a good idea anyway. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Savage_Greg on 12/05/07 at 08:04:07 Oh yeah...I cleaned these carbs last summer. This green stuff didn't go through a filter. This is called poor maintenance. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Carb_Deposits.jpg |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/05/07 at 16:51:58 Savage_Greg wrote:
cant find a pm schedule for the carb in the owners man or the ssm.. so if i was a young new rider and had no Handy experience id think bout installin an external fuel filter cause i have some mechanical aptitude and i love my bike and want her to last..an external clear fuel filter IS preventive maintenence..... why do ANY mods that dont make her go or stop?? |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/05/07 at 20:00:05 Savage_Greg wrote:
That green stuff is from water corroding the brass floats. No filter will stop water, but the right filter will stop particulate matter, which has no place in a carb and which every automobile manufacturer provides somewhere in the fuel system for this reason. Had the owner of those corroded carbs bothered to keep his tank full and with gas treated with a stabilizer, and if he had bothered to drain the bottom of the tank and bowls from time to time, the brass would not have corroded. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by bill67 on 12/06/07 at 06:42:57 Put some SeaFoam in your gas once every couple months it will clean the carb without taking it apart. Also run a tank of high octane gas which has cleaners in it every couple months.SeaFoam also lubes the slides in the carb. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by barry68v10 on 12/06/07 at 12:51:09 Arthur wrote:
As long as we're engaging in this "engaging" discussion, I'll just say that many automotive type filters WILL absorb water. That's why they work as diesel fuel filters as well. Any cotton based or similar synthetic media will collect water in both oil and fuel. I have a bypass oil filter on my 1-ton van that will absorb almost 2-quarts of water from the oil...in addition it filters oil down to 0.1 microns. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/06/07 at 17:47:22 barry68v10 wrote:
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by thumperclone on 12/07/07 at 06:53:06 arthur, dont be sorry...this is a forum where free exchange of ideas and opinions are expressed.your thread is a prime example. 8) |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by barry68v10 on 12/07/07 at 13:36:43 Arthur wrote: Sorry Arthur, I wasn't trying to bust your chops, I was just pointing out there are a myriad of options if you're not going to stick to stock. I've considered switching to a full-sized auto filter on my M/C, I've already plumbed in an oil cooler. If I had a fuel pump, I'd consider a better fuel filter as well. I'm not sure where to draw the line between "motorcyle application" and "automotive application" since there is so much overlap. I know somebody has to think inside the box, but some of us don't. ;D If I've offended you, please forgive me, it certainly was not my intent. :-[ As for the TP filter idea, it will also filter down to about 0.1 microns AND it will absorb water from the oil. Unless I'm mistaken, it think it requires about 15 psi to do an efficient job, but as long as you only allow a small amount of flow, and flow from a pressure port into a non-pressure area, it should still work as advertised. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Arthur on 12/07/07 at 18:25:32 No No, I was not offended and appreciated all the responses. The problem with typing a message is that you can never tell what the writer's (My) attitude is. I was shaking my head at myself for having started such a controversial thread.... I was not offended. |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Oldfeller on 12/07/07 at 21:43:32 It's not controversial, it is based on opinions. Some will give their opinions and whatever thought they have to back it up, others will disagree with the same and offer other opinions and the thoughts to back it up. I never really considered very much where the brown stuff came from, but then it occurred to me that gasoline is just part of the spectrum of stuff that gets cracked out of crude oil. Some of the other things that get sorted out in the distillation tower is solid waxes, heavy oils and such. These are the heavier elements. Gasoline isn't the lightest of the lot either, benzines and naptha spirits are a good bit lighter than gasoline. Gasoline is a mixture of the middle volatile elements. So, why should our gasoline, which is a middle product, not contain some of the heavier elements dissolved in it? Some heavy waxes and oils, dissolved in suspension? And why under conditions of temperature change, evaporation, oxidation and idle storage, shouldn't some of those heavy elements perhaps come out of suspension? We all know about the varnish that shows up on carburetor parts, we all have sprayed it away with carb cleaner many times during our mispent youths. Is varnish a product of heavy oils and waxes coming out of suspension as the carrier (gasoline) evaporates? Think of salt coming out of salt water and think of your hair and your skin after swimming in the ocean and drying off. I think we need fuel filters, as some of the air jets and fuel jets in our carbs are smaller than the 1/16" main jet mentioned up thread and can be affected by particles of waxy varnishy trash brown trash stuff. Sorry Greg, it's an opinion. I have seen petc0ck screens blocked so badly with varnish that fuel flow was affected on reserve. Now did my bike's previous owner let most of a tank of gas evaporate to make this condition possible, yeah -- I think its real likely. Would Seafoam or Stabil gasoline conditioner help? Heck yes, why do you think they work so well people swear by them for winter storage. They keep the brown crap from coming out of suspension during cold idle storage. Surprise, if you are already poluted with varnish these same stabilizers and cleaners can also peel pieces of it off the inside of the walls of the gas tank and let them float around freely in your fuel supply too. So, it's an opinion. Your mileage may vary. Other biker groups have considered this topic and have similar but slightly different opinions. http://www.wetleather.com/node/218 Farmers deal with this storeage issue more than bikers do since their stuff sits a lot. This is what they have to say. http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/surv/sta-bil.htm Also, consider that every gas pump has a fine paper filter element that gets replaced regularly. This brown residue in the gas isn't a new issue to the fuel industry. http://www.nationalservicestationsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=15 So, I got me an opinion -- don't you? <grin> Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: External fuel filter Post by Max_Morley on 12/08/07 at 10:34:15 Max's personal choice is SeaFoam and I've used both it, Stabil and the Clauson powered version. I us it year round even though mine gets exercise almost weekly, but it is parked in a semi heated shop when something isn't being worked on. Heated to 65 when it is. In summer the shop may be over 100 degrees and I'm sure lots of evaporation can occur then. My $0.02 worth, whatever use something and run the engine long enough to get it in the carb, not just the tank. Max |
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