|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> How Bizarre? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1194527047 Message started by skrapiron on 11/08/07 at 05:04:07 |
|
Title: How Bizarre? Post by skrapiron on 11/08/07 at 05:04:07 Strange things are afoot here in Pittsbooger. I took the Savage out for a maintentance ride yesterday (hadn't ridden it since the 1st). It cranked ok, but was slow to fire (choke on full, fuel to 'on') With some effort, it started, but the idle was slow, even with the choke pulled out. I let it idle like that for a few minutes while I finished putting my gear on. For the most part, the ride was uneventful, if not cold (29*). I did a 10 mile circuit around the airport and was on my way home when the engine began to sputter. At a stop sign, the idle became very rough and the engine died when I tried to give it gas. No problem I thought. I'm out of gas. So I switched the petcork to 'res' refired the engine and rode to a gas station. When I opened the gas cap, I was suprised to find that I still had half of a tank of gas! I filled the tank the rest of the way, then started the bike and rode home. It rest of the ride, it never sputtered and died like before. When I got home, I pulled the vaccuum tube to check for obviouis damage. The line was dry and it was securely zip-tied to both ends. Does it sound like a vaccuum leak to you guys? Even though I could not replicate the failure, would it be in my bets interest to replace that vaccuum line anyway? Thanks again all! |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by youzguyz on 11/08/07 at 05:53:38 It has some symptoms that indicate a vacuum line problem. The vacuum line being dry doesn't mean it's good, it just means your petcork diaphram isn't leaking gas back into the line. To check the vacuum line, you will need to pull both ends off, inspect visually, and check to see if it holds a vacuum. If ok, I would warm it up a little before putting it back on and putting zip ties/clamps on. That will help it seal. IF it happens again, flip the petcork to PRI and see if the bike starts running ok again. If it does, it will be a better indication of a vacuum/petcork problem. After my bike sits for an extended time (doesn't happen often), I put it on PRI for a while during starting to make sure there is enough gas in the float chamber and check the external filter for gas flow. When I put it back on "on", I check to see if the gas flow is "pulsing" as the vacuum opens the petcork. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by verslagen1 on 11/08/07 at 06:48:42 I've had similar trouble, and now I run on 'res' all the time. And it happened most when it was less than half a tank. I think either the rubber gotten hard or the spring has gotten out of where it's supposed to be. Or you gotta leak. I got an extra one and will be tearing into it to see what can be done. ;D |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Jack_650 on 11/08/07 at 07:03:57 And let's not forget the option of there being gunk floating around in the tank that gets sucked to the fuel filter. Pull the tank, rinse and dump with a little gas. All kinds a stuff can build up in the tank. Maybe even some water condensation from the semi-radical temp changes once the engine warmed up the tank a bit. You say the problem cleared up some once you filled the tank. Makes me think there may be some "stuff" floating around in there that only causes trouble when there's less gas to dilute or spread it around. Jack |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by skatnbnc on 11/08/07 at 07:22:28 Okay, glad this topic came up because it happened to me for the first time last night! Was riding to ballet class and turned the corner into the parking lot when the bike just stalled out. I coasted into a parking space and tried to restart with no success. Pulled the choke, turned the pc to PRI and still no start. Tilted the bike while listening and heard not much sloshing in the tank. Thought the same thing as skrapiron - outta gas, silly girl. Left it sitting for 3 hours of class time, then tried again. This time PRI on, choke out, started fine. Rode a mile to the gas station, filled up and found my tank at 1/4 full already. Huh. Usually I can go a lot further on that amount of gas and then PRI for even a few more miles (up to 10). The only thing that is recently different here is the weather change from 60 to 30F. So is it the cold causing this? |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 08:15:08 Jack_650 wrote:
Maybe but that petc0ck filter is pretty tall with 2 separate sides, and I think that it would take a lot of gunk to plug it up like that. If he was 1/2 full, then he wasn't using the lower RES side either. But since he switched to RES and it started, then he was using the lower side which is where water would be collected if that is the case. The real test would have been to pull out a phillips screwdriver and check the bowl drain for gas when that happened. Work backward from there. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 08:20:54 verslagen1 wrote:
When you get your new CD, check the new petc0ck photos before you rip it apart :P |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by SavageDude on 11/08/07 at 08:30:10 This is mysterious intermitted problem that we all seem to experience. Skatnbnc's and my bike are fairly new and we both still have the same problem like everyone else. I think this is an internal mechaniclal problem with the petc0ck. Unless we convert it to manual petc0ck instead of vacumn-operated one, this problem will occur again in the future. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 08:30:18 As Youzguyz said, I'd check the integrity of the vacuum hose. No cracks etc. ************ As for Skatnbnc...your bike is too new for vacuum leaks from an old hose, if you ask me. I just replaced mine after 7 years. I had a crack, so I didn't wait for trouble. Yours died and then you coasted, parked, and waited. Since you were going to class and couldn't check it "right then", I think your problem (if it exists) is different. ************ Ya know, it seems that these types of posts appear every year at this time. Right when the weather starts getting cold and people are using their choke...or not using their choke :P |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 08:33:19 Someone ought to drain their carb bowl into a tuna can or something. Do it with the petc0ck in ON or RES, and see if there's any water in the bowl. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 08:38:56 SavageDude wrote:
Yes, but if you convert it, then you'll never know for sure will you? If it ain't broke... My 7 year old (and my spouse's 6 year) petcock have never caused a problem, and I've even taken mine apart just for the heck of it :P BTW - I work on all kinds of bikes with vacuum operated petc0cks. I have yet to find a different model that's been "converted". Why does everyone "knee jerk" on the LS650's? |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by mornhm on 11/08/07 at 09:50:25 Without looking has everyone who is having trouble with this modified the idle circuit and or jetting? The description also matches symptoms of a MC that is completely warmed up and is running rich with cold fuel in cold air. Rough idle and dying when the throttle is turned could match a flooded engine. It's hard to smell flooding in cold air, because part of the reason it can happen is that the fuel isn't evaporating but staying liquid. The one time this happened to me, I took a minute or two to think, switched to prime, and took off. It wasn't until later that I realized I hadn't pushed the choke all the way in to the run position. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by skatnbnc on 11/08/07 at 10:12:55 mornhm wrote:
Sounds like my situation. Bike was still semi-warm having been ridden at lunchtime, but air was very cold and the fuel was cold because I felt it when I straddled the tank! No mods on my idle or jets. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by youzguyz on 11/08/07 at 10:19:44 skatnbnc wrote:
On your ride to ballet, did you ever push the choke all the way back in? If you had left it at the "half way" position, it may have been running too rich when you got to class, causing it to stall. Pulling it further out would have caused a "no start" like you had. After 3 hours, you pulled the choke all the way out, and it had cooled enough by then. Sound reasonable? |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 10:31:16 Anyone notice my "Ya know..." comment above? You are riding a manually controlled bike, meaning that some things aren't done automatically like in a modern car. Some of us old timers grew up with carburetted cars and know the difference. Some of those had manual chokes too. A modern car has control modules that uses air temp and air density to calculate and meter the correct fuel needed for the engine. As well, the engine maintains a constant temp with the thermostat once it is warmed up. All this goes on and you never notice it... When you were riding at lunch, it wasn't as cold as in the evening. There are also 2 settings for the choke and sometimes if the engine (efficiently air cooled, too) is running slow in cold air you still need to use the 1st choke position anyway. In other words, the choke isn't always just for starting the bike. It is for when the engine is cold. Anytime it is cold! You have to be the control module. BTW - it is more comfortable if you straddle the seat instead of the tank :P |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by skrapiron on 11/08/07 at 13:27:52 Not running rich, not since I swapped to the cone filter.. I pulled the vaccuum line off the carb, plugged one end and pumped compressed air into the hose at the other. It expanded slightly and revealed a number of small cracks in the rubber walls of the hose. A few of which, were leaking air. I had a length of fuel line of the same inside diameter, but with a thicker outside diameter (thicker walls). It will not fit in the spring cage, but the thicker rubber should be able to stand up to the temps a little better. Since the swap, no further problems. I logged another 150 miles today (in 29* weather) with nary a hiccuup. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/08/07 at 16:16:31 skrapiron wrote:
Since you inflated it, a bucket of water would have revealed actual leaks :) Glad that your 150 miles was uneventful. What was your average speed? |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by skrapiron on 11/08/07 at 18:06:56 It was mostly highway, around 55 to 60mph (not breaking any landspeed records). The in-town (about 10%) was 25-35mph. It was a bit warmer today than yesterday, especially in the afternoon. But the morning was chilly.. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by verslagen1 on 11/08/07 at 18:34:47 Every mine quit was about 10 into a 25 mile commute, going uphill at about 65 to 70 mph. In the afternoon so 70 to 80°F I've noted that there has been a few others with the same situation, ran out of gas going uphill. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by J Mac on 11/08/07 at 21:08:46 Like skrapiron, I replaced my vacuum line with a piece of fuel line. I had been having full-throttle stalls (not comfortable on the freeway). I haven't had a problem since the replacement. My bike is a 2003, and I didn't think the vacuum line should have been bad already. It apparently was. The original owner bought it from a dealer in Maine, and I imagine cold storage during long Maine winters w/no warmups didn't do the rubber any good. I also replaced the silly circlips or whatever they are with real hose clamps out of necessity (tight fit). I love the bike, but I have to say Suzuki screwed up with the petc0rk design. I consider it a safety issue to suddenly run out of fuel in traffic when your gas tank is not empty because of a faulty vacuum hose. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/09/07 at 05:06:15 verslagen1 wrote:
I'd bet on your float adjustment, myself. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/09/07 at 05:09:00 J Mac wrote:
2000, single owner, new hose after 7 years, same hose clamps ("circlips") and never a problem. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by skatnbnc on 11/09/07 at 06:03:45 Savage_Greg wrote:
Yes, I know it's all manual, and I drive a manual transmission car, have a lawn mower that requires manual help, and learned how to drive on a tractor. But I did not think to pull the choke out to the second setting, so thank you for that tip! And I will try to remember to stop straddling the tank...although my inner thighs touch it which is dang cold in the morning! ;D |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/09/07 at 06:36:49 skatnbnc wrote:
But have you ever driven a car with a choke knob on the dash? Quote:
First setting, not second. Quote:
What a tease :P |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by skatnbnc on 11/09/07 at 07:32:01 Savage_Greg wrote:
Ummm, yes actually. An antique 1930's car for a parade, it was sweet! My first, your second, I knew what it meant! ;) I'm thinking about strapping a hot water bottle on each side of the tank for those cold days. 8) |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by bill67 on 11/09/07 at 07:41:33 Good idea in the summer you can put ice cubes in it. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/09/07 at 07:46:10 skatnbnc wrote:
Not a daily ride, but you got the idea. Quote:
My first, your first :P Quote:
Now you're beginning to sound like Stinger :P |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by DrT on 11/10/07 at 02:14:25 Those people experiencing rough running and stalling when the air temperature is low should consider carb icing as a possible reason. This is particularly likely if the atmosphere is also fairly humid. "Carb icing occurs when there is humid air, and the temperature drop in the venturi causes the water vapour to freeze. The ice will form on the surfaces of the carburetor throat, further restricting it. This may increase the venturi effect initially, but eventually restricts airflow, perhaps even causing a complete blockage of the carburetor. Icing may also cause jamming of the mechanical parts of the carburetor, such as the throttle butterfly valve." |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/10/07 at 09:32:43 DrT wrote:
I periodically stop and use a lighter to melt the ice :P |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by vtail on 11/10/07 at 13:00:36 Carb icing can occur at all temps even and very likely in summer. It usually only happens at low power or throttle closed. Rare at WOT (wide open throttle) or more than half throttle. Our carbs get warmed by the airflow of the cylinder so carb ice will be extremely rare unlike carburated airplanes where we use carb-heat which is heated air taken from around the exhaust system and dumped into the carb intake. ;) |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by DrT on 11/11/07 at 04:59:00 The carb is insulated from most of the conducted heat by the rubber manifold. The greatest risk of icing is at lowish temperatures (below 15C) and high humidity. Whatever you may think, carb icing can affect motorcycles. It isn't a common problem but is DOES happen. Thats why some bikes have heating built into their carbs. It can cause just the kinds of symptoms reported in this thread. The bike will run rough and may stall. It may refuse to start again but if left long enough the slowly conducted heat will eventually melt the ice and the bike runs fine again. At least two of the people reporting problems in this thread were running their bikes at ambient temps pretty close to 0C / 32F and had no other obvious explanation for the bike's behaviour. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/11/07 at 05:07:58 The big thing here is this problem is just the same as the Topic titled "Fair Weather Bike". This time of year, all kinds of posts pop up where so many think their own bike is doing something strange and unique... "It was running fine a month ago..." The problem is in our understanding of an air cooled motorcycle engine. Gotta forget everything you know about the Honda Accord in your driveway. This is a Thumper and if it doesn't run right, then CHOKE IT :P (And of course, no one reads anyone else's topics. This is gonna be another "Never Heard Of...") |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Savage_Greg on 11/11/07 at 05:17:23 DrT wrote:
Let's not over think this. We have Perry up in Canada (who used to have a Savage), and he never wrote about this problem. That's because he knows what to do in cold weather. People run all kinds of leaf blowers, snow blowers, chain saws and you name it, but if you go down to True Value Hardware, you won't find a single de-icing kit for Briggs and Stratton. Forget theoretical. Pull the choke and ride. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Polar_Pilot on 11/11/07 at 06:19:02 I suspect that a pin hole might have developed due to deterioration of the vacuum line - but there is another possiblity. The tank cap is vented - if that cap vent somehow became clogged - the full would not flow down to the carb and the bike would initially run rough and eventually die. I have never heard of this happenning until last summer when it developed on an RV that I share with my brother. The engine would start, run for 2 second and die - and stay dea - release the gas cap and it would run and stay running Anyway - just a thought but trying to loosen the gas cap for a second might just be a solution |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Digger on 07/08/08 at 20:45:12 7F4A5D5F670E0D08380 wrote:
Carb icing is an acknowledged problem on Honda ST1100s. I've had it happen to me a few times. Never had a carb icing problem with my Savage, though. I ride it in all kinds of weather, all year round. |
|
Title: Re: How Bizarre? Post by Jay on 07/08/08 at 23:59:49 OK, since we're talking about this; I've had a similar problem as well on a couple of occasions. My bike is a new '08. Each time, my tank was half, or less, full. My question is, could it be due to humidity changes, coupled with temp changes, coupled with the tank filler cap being vented(?), for lack on my part of a better term. I mean, the fuel is hydroscopic. It attracts water, right? This has always occured for me when I've parked it overnight with a less than full tank of gas, and righted itself upon fillup. Filling up the tank would have diluted the watered down gas, reducing or eliminating the problem, right? Or am I totally off the mark. Vacuum leaks would be consistant, I would assume (uh oh). Trash in the tank would declare itself within a realatively short while after each, or nearly each, fillup; but if the problem is only presenting itself with the conditions I described above, then it stands to reason it would be polluted fuel. I readily admit to not being the brightest bulb on the tree, and carburators are not my forte'; however, in trying not to over-think this, it seems reasonable. Please advise. Thanks. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |