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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1193681509 Message started by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 11:11:49 |
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Title: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 11:11:49 I was getting ready to run to the Post Office and I pulled my bike out in the driveway. The bike started just fine on choke and then I knocked off the choke to let her warm up. While she was idling, I busied myself with putting on my jacket and helmet, that is, until the engine suddenly quit. I went over to start it again and when I switched the choke on, it fired once or twice, but then no more. I switched the petc0ck over to PRI and tried again. Nope. Then I opened the bowl drain. Yep, I've got gas :P At this point I remembered and used my headlight switch and cranked it a few more times. While doing so, things sounded normal except that on a couple cycles I noticed the choke knob sort of bounce out and in. Hmmm. At this point, I decided to feel the exhaust and put my hand over the tailpipe. While spinning her over again, I felt a very strong suction in a steady cycle with the engine rotation. Hmmm. I pushed her back into the garage, and will get into her after awhile. So, now while I'm taking the truck to the Post Office, what does everyone think has happened? Any guesses out there? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/07 at 11:43:47 You should know what my guess is. Does it also blow out the carb? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 10/29/07 at 12:23:02 s'pose the exhaust valves are staying open for one reason or another - you didn't port that head a little too far did ya? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by LANCER on 10/29/07 at 13:04:34 Quote:
Bouncing choke knob and sucking muffler ? ? What did you do to your poor little motorcycle ? Are you working on a new prototype engine that runs without a cam chain and the valves stay open continuously? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 14:33:24 Good thoughts all...humorous too :P I'm also sure that you read my other post where I rode a good part of yesterday without any problems. See, when this happened, I thought that I'd do like so many people do, except that for a change I'd throw in a couple initial tests that I did while trying to start it. After all, I know that you've NEVER HEARD OF...a post like "Help, Bike Died..." Anyway, I just pulled the plug (iridium) and it was nasty black and even wet. I cleaned it and checked for a spark. Yep, got plenty of spark....and I didn't even shock myself :) Then I connected the compression tester. Supposed to be checked when warmed up, but if it doesn't run that won't work. I also decided that I wasn't going to pour any oil in the cylinder because I really wanted to see just how low the compression might be. Book says 142 - 200 PSI is normal when warmed up. The minimum is 114. I got 140 PSI, 2 times, with it stone cold. Yep, it's got "Squeeze". Then I put the plug back in (through the plug door) and she started right away. I turned it off again. Why was the bike idling fine, then die and have such a dirty plug? Going back down to the garage... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 14:35:17 verslagen1 wrote:
That is what I wondered with the bouncing choke knob... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by demin on 10/29/07 at 14:35:34 Stinker messed with your carb settings when you weren't looking. ;D |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 14:37:11 Reelthing wrote:
That's what I wondered about the suction too. Ya know what? The book doesn't say anything about the decomp system when checking compression either. Hmmm. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 14:39:01 LANCER wrote:
Yeah. I'm trying to turn it into a "dieseling 2 stroke" just like when my old 400 would go ballistic on a miss shift :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 15:21:12 Okay. back to Step One. The bike started right up. It idled for a minute or two, then it began to stumble and before I could do anything, it just died again. Gonna go pull the plug again. Bet it's wet. What ya think now? PS - Kinda fun...I'm not usually on the "problem side" of the topic :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Ed_L. on 10/29/07 at 15:36:42 My guess is the valve lash is too tight. The engine runs till it gets warm then the valves move a little bit and stay open just enough to loose compression out the carb. It cools back down when you are checking it and then everything goes back to where it will start again. Of course it could be a bad valve seat or binding valve springs but the lash is the easiest to check. Kind of humorous in a twisted sort of way ;). Hope it is a easy fix. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by islandwahine on 10/29/07 at 18:15:39 Savage_Greg wrote:
It's a refresher course in feeling helpless!! :P Wish I could help, but I'm absolutely of no use! Good luck! Say... there is no way that the vacuum is so strong that it sucks the choke back in and too much fuel so that you flood the bike? There's no gas in your oil is there?? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by forrest on 10/29/07 at 18:20:22 Did you ensure the fellpian tubes are clean? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/07 at 19:09:30 how about the petcork? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by bill67 on 10/29/07 at 19:32:29 Maybe low speed jet fell out |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Hell, Billy on 10/29/07 at 19:41:20 Sounds like classic vapor lock, check your tank cap.....or maybe the internal tank filter is clogged? Sometimes, it`s more than one thing, tho. Retrace what you last did to it, trouble shooting 101. Hmmmmm B |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 10/29/07 at 19:43:26 got any gas in the vac line? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by youzguyz on 10/30/07 at 01:31:55 Something to do with the decomp, or as Ed L suggest, the valves. How else could it be sucking air in through the exhaust? Wait.. is there a bulge in the tank?? (Somebody had to say it. :P ) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 04:59:01 Ed_L. wrote:
Don't really think so, though. I did adjust the backlash to .005" when I finished the cam install, however, as I posted somewhere else I found the clearance to be too loose on Saturday during a routine check. I readjusted it and then rode 80 miles on Sunday. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by LANCER on 10/30/07 at 05:03:06 OK, so it runs again after sitting for a while. Starts, runs, dies, wet & black plug, sucking muffler, blowing carb. What causes both valves to remain open at the same time after it gets warm? This makes me think about what Ed said ... but you said you adjusted and then readjusted the valves.....did the valves readjust themselves again after running? Loose valve adjusting nuts? IF THAT IS NOT IT THEN YOUR ENGINE IS DEMONIZED ! |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:04:59 islandwahine wrote:
Can't say that I've fallen into a feeling of helplessness 'cause I know that I'll find it...I'd never be able to do bike repairs if that could happen to me. :P The thing with the bouncing choke made me think of an intake valve problem. I checked. No gas in the oil. In fact, I needed to add some oil...which kinda surprised me too. Had to do some "paying" work yesterday afternoon and wasn't able to finish my testing...more today :) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:08:02 forrest wrote:
They appeared to be when I removed the diaphragm on Saturday (when I changed to a thinner spacer)... Yes, I was in the carb on Sat. but it ran all day on Sunday without trouble ??? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:09:36 bill67 wrote:
That's interesting. A thought, but it did start just fine. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:13:09 Hell, Billy wrote:
Gas drained out of the float bowl on my first check and when I switched it to PRI, it still would not start because the plug was wet. Then I checked the bowl again and got more gas... What I LAST did to it? I'd have to pull the cylinder again ;D |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:15:56 Reelthing wrote:
I checked that one late yesterday after my second start. Line was dry. Not a drop. I switched the petc0ck around too just to see if anything seemed strange. I left it off and plugged the carb nipple to eliminate it anyway. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:21:53 youzguyz wrote:
The bike started and stopped in the same exact manner late yesterday. Compression was good but I didn't do a leak down test. The suction might be part of the issue with the decomp system leaving the exhaust valves open during the cycle....which I wonder if that should be disconnected for a compression test anyway...but the compression was good and the manual doesn't mention it I'm glad that you said it. You beat John to it ;D |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 10/30/07 at 05:22:12 Cam to crank timing dead on? if it is sucking through the exhaust and pulsing through the carb sounds like cam timing off. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 05:29:58 LANCER wrote:
Okay...I got sidetracked in the afternoon and didn't finish looking. On Saturday, I did change the needle spacer and readjust the valves. Then the bike ran normally all day on Sunday. Must have had a dozen starts. There were however a couple times that the engine seemed a little sluggish BUT I kinda thought it was due to the chain conversion. But as long as it ran, I didn't think about it much. For everyone, here is an interesting bit of thought... When Julie came home last night and I discussed the bike problem, she said, "Oh yeah, I meant to mention that when I was following you, that there were a few times that I smelled gas." DOH! |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 10/30/07 at 06:14:57 For real, the worst case I've had of running ok goes to crap after it warms up was a sticky slide - in my case cause by a greasy finger prints - formed a little ring at the bottom, after the carb warms up the metal expands and the slide would hang/drag going back down - of course if your sucking a little through the vac line it'll sure go rich. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 07:21:54 smokin_blue wrote:
Yeah, it does sound like that, but honestly to set the cam timing is pretty much fool proof. That is, as long as you do Step One correctly and set the crank at TDC :P Besides, it does run correctly, that is, until it dies. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 07:35:27 Reelthing wrote:
Rich is definitely the issue, but I took the vacuum line out of the equation yesterday. It was dry but I plugged the carb nipple and let the tube just hang there for now. The wife's little "Oh yeah..." is the key. One thing that I did yesterday was to remove the baffle and it was very sooty...this after I had switched the main back to a 155 a couple weeks ago.. I do know that I've followed Julie on a couple occasions when she had forgotten to turn off the choke. You can smell a rich running bike if you are following. SO, I'm gonna go back in the carb and check the low speed jet, the slide, and the main jet (as some of you mentioned, too) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by vtail on 10/30/07 at 10:40:33 Is your decrompression system working Oke? A short could activate the decomp device and open the exhaust valves which could cause suction in the mufler since it's easier than sucking thru a filter. This can cause a wet plug since the mixture becomes overly rich! For example, During start it works oke ,Than vibration causes short to activate the decomp, which opens exh valves, which make it quit ;) Could be in your starter button or selenoid ;) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by govmule84 on 10/30/07 at 11:21:46 I've got to vote for vapor lock, too...try leaving the gas cap off for a while it idles? ...although this is sort of like calling up the doctor, and going "Hey! My tummy's killing me! What's wrong?" :-) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 12:34:02 vtail wrote:
Don't really know if that is possible. I'm pretty sure that when the starter button is not activated that the decomp solenoid is totally dead. Reason being that the decomp module is a timer and it energizes the decomp solenoid for short period (milliseconds) ahead of the starter relay. After the engine is running (signal from ignition unit), the decomp module turns off the solenoid. The hot or positive would have to come from the decomp module. Gotta remember too that the engine has been running 2 times. Perfect start, smooth idle and then fouled plug both times. The only thing that changed was that I cleaned the plug after the first time. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 12:40:06 govmule84 wrote:
I'll double check it again, but gotta remember that my first check was to drain the carb bowl. The bowl was full. A clogged gas cap vent would have given me an empty bowl just like running out of gas. Then the engine would have run lean and the plug would have been dry, not wet. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 12:51:36 I just cleaned the carb. Every passage and jet. Blew it out good too. The carb was a little dirty but I couldn't find any clogs or "chunks" of stuff. The choke valve looked a little dirty. Getting ready to measure the float height which looks a little high. Then I'll put that puppy back in there....and then maybe, try again this afternoon... (PS - I say "maybe" because a guy just dropped off 2 snowmobiles that have been sitting for a couple years with gas in them...and now they won't start. That's 4 more carbs! Geez, I'm up to my butt in fuel problems all of a sudden :P) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 10/30/07 at 14:04:30 that slide clean as clean can be? curious about the sleds - guess we need to take that to the cafe so these moderators don't jump on us |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by govmule84 on 10/30/07 at 14:42:04 Well, I had a '72 Honda that BUILT pressure in the tank. Dunno what that was all about. Drilled a little hole, and it vented fine...it was right after I had cleaned and then....red-koted the tank. Temperature change can cause that pressurization...I dunno. Cheap and easy and quick to check, I guess. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by vtail on 10/30/07 at 15:07:44 Savage_Greg wrote:
Never say Never. Those electric gremlins are Smart. If it can break it will break. The decomp is just an electro magnet. If it gets power even intermittently due to a short, it 'll cause the exh valves to open and could therfore pressurize the carb causing the choke to act up ;) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 10/30/07 at 18:36:14 vtail wrote:
How does opening an exhaust valve allow pressure back to the carburator? The intake valves would still be closed..... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 20:31:53 Reelthing wrote:
Yep, I cleaned it off good and moved it up and down once it was installed. Seemed normal. Unfortunately, after I got the tank installed I had to start working on those "track bikes" "P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 20:36:04 govmule84 wrote:
Well, you know how it is "supposed to not work". Lower pressure in tank, no gas come out. Higher pressure in tank, too much gas come out. The tank vent is okay this time (I just took it completely apart for photos about 2 months ago) :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 20:46:21 vtail wrote:
Yeah, but the gremlins have to be in the module then, not the solenoid. The module turns it on and off. Do you suppose this is related to Halloween? The module also turns on the starter relay, and usually if a solid state device fails, it fails open not shorted. I'm still not discounting valves, but it has shown no weird behavior during starting. Only after idling a little while...and it repeated the same behavior again. I did have to lower the float level about 2 mm though. I haven't adjusted them ever since new :P I got it back together enough to start it again tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 20:51:49 smokin_blue wrote:
Well, maybe what he's thinking is that as the piston goes up on the exhaust stroke, that the exhaust valves stay open even as the piston goes back down on the intake stroke when the intake valves are open... Just a guess. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by stinger on 10/31/07 at 02:02:08 Four very good suggestions: 1)...you didnt use enough WD40 2)....you shouldnt have changed your cam chain 3)....you should call a motorcycle handyman. one must live in your area somewhere 4)...God is getting even with you for callin me Stinker and your mean posts nanananaaaaaaa!!!! |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by mornhm on 10/31/07 at 05:14:20 Savage_Greg I know you've had lots of advice so far. But if you're still not running might I make a suggestion? From what you've described the engine is running rich. Keep it simple -solve this first. After you solve this, if you have other symptoms move on, otherwise go riding. Most likely causes of rich condition are either not enough air, or too much fuel, electrical being a distant third. If you don't have your intake pinched off somehow, I'd start looking at the carb. Perhaps even changing back to the smaller jets until you get to a lean condition. Something else to keep in mind (I'm sure you are) is that whenever something goes wrong after wrenching, far and away the most likely cause is the wrencher. Since it would be really really difficult to describe everything you did (especially a mistake you don't remember) this is just a reminder. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/31/07 at 05:16:55 stinger wrote:
I see that you were lurking around at 2 AM again... Hey, it's Halloween. What costume are you gonna be wearing tonight? Will it involve a hot water bottle or a deer skin? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/31/07 at 05:31:12 mornhm wrote:
At this point it is a matter of, "What changed?" Don't know if you read the post, but we went riding all day the day before. Not a problem. That's why this IS interesting. The first thing that I checked was fuel. The carb was full, no flooding, but the plug was wet. Then checked the spark, and it was good. Then because this is my third "reassembly" with used rings and valves, I checked compression. That was good. The ignition is also good because it starts and runs when the plug is dry. Then, I did the harder part of removing and cleaning the carb. Unfortunately, I had to go to work on the "track bikes" at that point... It is always possible that it could be the wrencher. That's why I started this post. I'll keep ya posted either way. What do you think it is? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 10/31/07 at 06:05:13 Greg, Here's a thought.....You went riding all day. Then say "The first thing that I checked was fuel." But, you must have filled the tank. Did you get the gas at a trusted gas station??? Bad gas.....and I don't mean from Baked Beans.....Just some "food" for thought....... T.Mack |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/31/07 at 09:06:10 T-Mack1 wrote:
That's an idea, but nope. We filled up before we left and drove 80 miles out of a tank. Gotta be about 35 miles left in there. As well, I always drain my gas in a small container (I have a hose on the bowl drain) and could tell if there was any water, etc. I might still have bad gas though :) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by vtail on 10/31/07 at 09:24:17 smokin_blue wrote:
If the electromagnet gets powered it opens the exhaust valves. These then could be open at the same time that the intake valves are opened. Test; Start Bike and look at electromagnet under right side of tank with small mechanics mirror and see if it acts up. You might have to look at it it for a little while. Make sure mechanism is free to move. This can be tested by taking the tank off and moving the slide by hand which will open exhaust valve. It's under RH side off the tank. :) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/31/07 at 15:47:27 vtail wrote:
Yeah, but this problem is not the decomp solenoid or the module. With the chrome cover off, I just started and ran the engine. I watched the actuator arm. After "the big click" the arm moved, then the starter turned, and then the arm went back to the normal position. The arm stayed off until I tried to start it again...which of course, was because the engine died AGAIN :( Remember the sequence, the engine starts, idles fine and then starts to sputter and die after a couple minutes? So then I pulled the plug, cleaned it, and started engine again, but this time I set the idle up to 2000 and let it go for a few minutes. It sounded fine. I decided to check the air screw adjustment so I turned the idle back down, and it died. 2 times AGAIN:( Yep. Cleaned and adjusted the carb (floats) and everything seems fine. No leaking petc0ck, no overflowing bowl, not even a fuel smell, but the engine only runs a few minutes and then dies with a wet plug... The symptom is a wet plug and I believe the problem is a worn or broken oil ring. It hard to identify the wetness on the plug, but a fouled plug is usually black anyway. I think the wetness is oil, and I think that it takes a couple minutes for the oil pressure to build up and since the oil ring is NOT wiping the cylinder wall as it should, it takes a minute for oil to foul the plug. Maybe if I was running it harder down the road, the oil would burn off, but at idle it doesn't. Remember that I didn't add oil for a cold check of the compression? I don't think I needed to. Might have been a false reading if the cylinder was oily. Remember how I mentioned the sooty baffle? Bet it wasn't from a really rich mixture. Remember the wife mentioned that she smelled my exhaust? I just noticed that my oil was a little low today too. Anyone that has my CD will see a couple piston ring photos where I checked ring to cylinder and ring end gap. Mine were on the high side of all the tolerances. I meant to buy new rings, but being in a hurry I decided to hone the cylinder and see if they'd do okay through winter. (there were other reasons like saving money, etc, too.) It's my guess that seating the rings just one more time, was one time too many. As Mornhm said, it might be a problem with the wrencher. :P So let this be a lesson in WHAT NOT TO DO. Buy new rings. They only cost about $23 :( |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by vtail on 10/31/07 at 16:00:29 How do you explain the chokeknob going in and out? :) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 10/31/07 at 16:21:18 vtail wrote:
I don't really. It was just thrown in with other observations for the conversation. Not sure why I felt the suction on the exhaust either. I know it's not the decomp system. I just watched it start to stop. I know it's not valve clearance, I've adjusted them twice. I know it's not valve timing, the engine runs too well (above idle). I know it's not the carb, because I cleaned it last spring for photos, and cleaned it again yesterday. I know it's not the petc0ck, because I ran it without the vacuum hose. I know it's not ignition because it starts easily cold and runs smooth (above idle). I do know the rubber seal around the choke knob shaft is a little worn and loose on the shaft. I do know the plug gets wet quickly. I do know the engine was low on oil after about 130 miles of total running since reassembly. I do know the baffle in the Raask was thick with black soot. And I do know the spouse could smell my "gas" when she was following me :P Maybe too, without a baffle I was merely feeling a back pressure in the dragpipe that I didn't expect. Please. Any other idea? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by vtail on 10/31/07 at 17:10:01 I'll have to sleep on that note :-/ |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Ed_L. on 10/31/07 at 17:11:21 A busted oil ring could cause the choke knob to bounce, as the piston goes up and down the crankcase pressure will blow by the broken oil ring. Just had a thought that maybe the crankcase breather could be stopped up or the tubing pinched off. The increase in crankcase pressure might blow some oil by the rings and cause the wet plug and would mimic a busted oil ring. Sounds like the carb is good, you have been in more than once. When the bike was running did it smoke any, oil smoke I mean, not dumpster smoke?. Maybe pull the exhaust pipe off the head and see if there is any oil in the exhaust port. Speaking of exhausts could it be plugged up with a dead mouse or busted baffle?. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by drums1 on 10/31/07 at 18:09:35 We had a car at our shop with a similar problem. It ended up being a blown head gasket. Did you replace them all and torque to specs when you had it apart? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 10/31/07 at 18:39:09 Long shot here but unscrew your plug cap from the wire and check the resistance. Could be a resitor opening up in the plug cap. Spark gets week, misfires, loads, floods...end of story. Long shot but worth a check. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/01/07 at 08:38:39 drums1 wrote:
New gaskets, copper washers and torqued. No leaks around head or cylinder. I have a small leak at the decomp lever. Need a new seal there, but that's it. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/01/07 at 08:49:19 smokin_blue wrote:
If the resistor "opens up" does that mean that it can also "close down" after it cools? It would have to be able to do that since it fires right up again after I clean the plug. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/01/07 at 09:45:53 Ed_L. wrote:
Interesting thought. When I first started it after assembly, I had a puff or two of gray smoke. That was most likely oil used when I assemble the valves, etc. After that the smoke mostly appeared to be puffs of black which I figured was too rich (I changed the main jet too). Didn't really notice any gray oil smoke. I'm gonna pull the plug again later....hmmm. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 11/01/07 at 10:22:01 Savage_Greg wrote:
Generally they don't close down. They burn out is what they do and as they do the resistance goes up giving weaker and weaker spark. Working from memory I believe the spec is 11K ohms for a good one. My thought was if you had weak spark it starts fine with a good dry plug and then as soon as it miss fires the plug starts to get wet causing another miss fire and then you flood right away due to weak spark. How is the ground connection under the coil? the old intruders from '87 had a problem from the factory with a bad ground connection. We would take the new ones and make sure the paint was sanded off right under the coil mount to make sure they had a good ground or they would have a bad idle. The only other bizarre thing I have delt with on flooding at idle is when the o-ring around the needle seat doesn't seal (Item #21 on ron ayers carb view) It is not noticable at higher rpm but it causes a high fuel level and richness at idle. The question is, is it truely rich, or is it looking that way due to bad spark? If it is truely rich then chase the fuel/carb demons, if you have a spark/engine issue start with the electrical & engine compression route. Your wife has a savage too doesn't she? have you tried putting your ECU on her bike and see if it does the same thing to her bike? Bad ECU's can act funny. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Ed_L. on 11/01/07 at 15:37:32 Had a Pontitank once with a crack in the coil. It would start up and run till the coil got warm then it would short out and shut off. When it cooled off it would start up with no problem till it got warm again. A weak or no spark would give a wet plug but wouldn't explain the choke pulsing in and out. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 11/01/07 at 18:24:10 Ed_L. wrote:
Has anyone else watched theirs closely. Is the pulsing something that is really not normally there? (sorry mine is in pieces right now) I have watched intake boots on the old GS's pulse at idle. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Hell, Billy on 11/01/07 at 19:17:35 I`m leaning towards rings, now....B |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/02/07 at 07:02:35 smokin_blue wrote:
I figured that my "close down" would get this explanation. I understood what you were saying, but... The first thing that I did when the engine died, was to pull the plug, ground it and check the spark. It sparked weakly 'cause it was wet. I cleaned it and did it again. Good spark. The same thing has happened 3 times since. Each time the spark was steady and bright. Not red or weak looking. I don't really think that the resistor in the plug cap can cool and behave that way 4 times. As it is, I encountered my first totally dead spark plug cap on a 1980 XL250 a few weeks ago. Checked it with a meter and it was "infinite". I was checking the coil and ended up buying the cap. Your statement about 11K ohms is correct though. If you have a 5K resistor cap and measure the coil secondary with the cap installed, you'll get 9-11K ohms if it's good. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/02/07 at 07:12:47 Ed_L. wrote:
Yeah, I've heard of the coil doing this. Never seen it though. However, once the coil got hot the spark wouldn't return as quickly as I've checked it. My chrome cover is off, and I'd get the plug out, clean it and put it back pretty quick. Not much waiting. This is about like what Smokin' was saying about the cap. But the materials are really different. If you've ever removed the resistor in a plug cap, you'd know it is a solid ceramic like material that is shaped like a cylinder. Of course, the coil is a bunch of wire windings. I'll look more at these 2 items if I encounter a weak spark, but that hasn't happened yet I had a Pontitank once too. Big old Bonneville with a 400. Power everything, gas hog...:P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/02/07 at 07:16:23 smokin_blue wrote:
This was an observation that may not be related to the problem. The knob was sort of bouncing in and out, but not out to one of the 2 choke positions or anything that extreme. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/02/07 at 07:21:39 Hell, Billy wrote:
What have I said that makes you think that way? What do you know about bad rings? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Hell, Billy on 11/02/07 at 18:44:31 Worn rings let oil pass, cracked rings can cause all kind of wierdness...........sometimes you could get a false compression reading cold, and those lil buggers could slip around when they are warm & toasty...just a thought. B |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Rockin_John on 11/02/07 at 21:40:37 I'll tell you what Greg, before I would jump to the conclusion that I needed to tear down to put rings in, unless I was absolutely convinced that the plug fouling was oil... (but that consumption doesn't sound good) I'd swap in known good ECU & coil regardless that they appear to be functioning correctly. I've had both cause hair pulling problems. And at times when I thought the ignition had been completely eliminated as a possibility. Once on my old 67 Volvo; I adjusted the valve lash; rebuilt the two SU carbs; did unknown amount of distributor and point twiddling, and on, and on for days. Had it been a Chevy and a $10 coil, I'd have thrown one at it just in case, but on that Volvo a coil cost more like $110! A mechanic at the dealership finally convinced me that it was the likely culprit. He was right. It was a lesson I'll never forget. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Hell, Billy on 11/02/07 at 23:06:20 That 'plug getting wet' thing might be a tell.......check and see if it`s wet w/ gas or oil. The oil consumption is another tell. I sure hope it ain`t your rings, but that oil is going somewhere. Maybe it`s blocked somewhere? Hey, did you ever pick up a copy of that big red Chiltons MC & ATV guide? The trouble shooting chapter in it is priceless if you spend a lot of time chasing GR**LINS [don`t mention the little buggers, NEVER!!!]. When I was doing a bit of blacksmithing we used to sprinkle a little cornmeal around the anvil to appease them, also left a door or window open so the bastids could get out..... B |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/03/07 at 04:19:38 Hell, Billy wrote:
I figure that if the rings are passing oil that a cold compression test could give a false reading. Of course, since most compression tests are recommended with a warm engine (what if it won't start?), they'd be oily anyway. Usually, they only suggest adding oil for comparison to see if that indicates bad rings. My compression reading was still on the low end of the range. As it is, during assembly, I did have to vigorously hone the cylinder because of a scoring mark on the cylinder wall, and then I assembled it with used rings that measured close to their service limit. This might be a lesson of hindsight :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/03/07 at 04:23:56 Rockin_John wrote:
That's an interesting thought, even though that goes against my motto of KISS. I do have the luxury of a second Savage that can provide some donor electrical parts if needed. The next time that it happens, I'll grab the ignition unit off the spouse's bike when she isn't looking :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/03/07 at 04:26:11 Hell, Billy wrote:
I hadn't thought of hanging Gremlin bells around the garage. Might be useful on moving objects like the toolbox drawers and the garage doors too ;D |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by viper on 11/03/07 at 11:32:09 Put a vaccum gauge on what vac.reading do you get running vs. going to stall? Is the needle steady or jumping arround? You may have a valve sticking 1 of tne intakes or exhaust. Try a cylinder leak tester If at tdc @ 80psi you get air out intake valve is leaking out the tail pipe it's exhaust valve out of oil fill plug it's rings or piston. Yes it could be electrical but usually elect. will not cause oil copm. Just thought. Ride Safe Viper |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/03/07 at 12:56:05 I tend to think the problem is mechanical, but I'll keep the electrical in mind. Just haven't seen anything to indicate it yet... ...haven't even had time to look at it again. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 11/03/07 at 14:19:11 Rings?? ??? Rings? ??? There's supposed to be rings in there somewhere?? :o |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by barry68v10 on 11/03/07 at 14:42:49 Greg, my first inclination is the oil control ring. But I'd check the face and seats of the valves as well, this might be a burned/damaged valve. Interested to see the outcome nonetheless ;D |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/04/07 at 05:23:51 smokin_blue wrote:
Yep. Just like the rings around yur a nus. :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/04/07 at 05:40:03 barry68v10 wrote:
Yeah, I thought about that, but a valve would cause a loss in compression, but a valve seal would cause the oil leak. Except that I don't get a lot of gray smoke, either...??? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by DrT on 11/06/07 at 09:24:11 I assume that you have tried replacing the spark plug. I had a situation recently with a 125cc 4-stroke single. I had replaced the spark plug with a new one during a routine service. Next day I rode it to work and back - about 20 miles. (My Savage is currently off-road being rebuilt). It ran perfectly. The next day I rode it to work again with no problems. On the way back it began to rain. Then the bike began misfiring and cutting out. It stalled several times but each time I eventually managed to re-start it. Eventually I nursed it back home. Because of the rain I thought of problems wih HT lead, spark plug cap, coil etc. I examined the plug which was sooty but giving a good, big, bright blue/white spark so I cleaned it and put it back in. I replaced the coil and HT lead and it ran fine again. I rode it to work again the next day. On the way back it began to rain. The bike began missing and cutting out again. When I got home I cleaned out the carb but it made no difference. I was thinking about replacing the CDI unit, when, in a flash of inspiration I put the old plug back in it (I had kept it as an emergency spare). It then ran fine and hasn't had a problem since. The rain was probably just coincidence. What I had was a brand new but defective plug. It sparked well out of the bike but kept breaking down under the stress of running in the engine. My advice is stick to simple explanations. Even if the oil ring is defective you would be more likely to get oil smoke than the engine stalling. Carburation would have to be way off for such a problem to occur. My guess is that the problem is electrical but not showing up under non-running condidtions. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/07/07 at 10:37:42 My motto is generally KISS, but sometimes it is hard to avoid being stupid too :P Electrical is a remote possibility and I'll look into it a bit more. One thing that I do know is that my rings measured marginally good...maybe only .001-.002" above the service limit. That plus some scoring that I removed with a good honing may have put my rings beyond useful. (1 of the photos on the CD show the actual measure) I saved myself ~$23 by not buying new rings, and I think that might be the real issue. After that it just took a few miles for the rings to wear in too much... ...so see, knowing what I skipped is sorta keeping it simple :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/11/07 at 14:32:21 Since this began, I've been kinda PO'd and haven't been back to it until today. But this afternoon I cleaned my plug, disconnected the vacuum line, plugged the carb nipple, turned it to PRI and started the bike. Seemed like it took a few more turns than normal to start, but it fired right up. Nice and smooth, and I thought things might be okay. After 10 seconds or so, I gave the throttle a couple little blips to see how the exhaust looked in the bright sunlight. Sounded good with the baffle out of the Raask, but that shotgun blast of gray smoke looked like $hit.... The bike ran about 20 seconds total and I couldn't keep it from dying...it sputtered out quickly. (Now mind ya, it took me a few minutes to put the plug in the vise and get my camera and tripod...) http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Spark_Plug_Wet.jpg What you see on that almost new iridium plug has got to be oil. The exhaust was gray and my carb is not flooding. I don't really know how to wipe off a small sample like that and know for sure without one of those spectrography thingies. After all, a spark plug smells like gas and oil anyway. I decided to try something else...I turned the piston to TDC, grabbed a small piece of tubing, and a Q-tip. With the Q-tip in the tubing, I dabbed at the top of my piston. What I got on the Q-tip was black and liquid. It didn't rub off the piston like a powdery carbon. It soaked into the cotton. My engine is screwed, and it's my own damm fault. I bet that should have bought those new rings. More later... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/12/07 at 06:15:45 Greg, Good luck. An old timer once told me that if you're going to spend the time honing, you might as well get new rings. Otherwise what scored the walls may still be there. Twice I didn't follow his advice and suffered. Now I bite the bullet and buy the rings. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/12/07 at 13:20:56 T-Mack1 wrote:
I know...the new rings were in my wish list at Ron Ayers, but I took the gamble because I didn't want to wait another week or so to get them. I figured that I had reinstalled them twice before without a problem....but 3's a charm :P Funny too the plug fouled even faster yesterday, than it did last time...must be getting worse. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/13/07 at 14:51:17 Well, well, well...got the head off this afternoon. Here's an engine with just about 130 miles on the last assembly. In this one, you can see where oil puddled on the left side when parked on the side stand. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Piston_Oil_1.jpg Anyone that has the photo CD knows what this head looked like after I polished it and cleaned the valves. Notice the shiny oil? http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Head_Oil_1.jpg |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by thumperclone on 11/13/07 at 15:47:58 been a long while since ive been that deep into a cylinder..if i member corectly the cyl wall should be cross hatched and new rings are "broke in"(ride it like you stoled it)then you are assured of max seal= compression=power...set this ol dog straight.. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Ed_L. on 11/13/07 at 19:35:48 At least you didn't score up the cylinder wall, a quick rehone, new rings and clean head will put you back on the road. Kind of curious about what the old rings look like, are the edges rounded or do they just look worn down. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 05:21:29 thumperclone wrote:
You are right. Unfortunately, the cylinder is nicely cross hatched and the rings are old. They have been reinstalled 3 times... That's why I'm posting this. Don't do what I did :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 05:22:49 Ed_L. wrote:
So far the cylinder appears okay. I'll probably have a close and personal look at the rings today. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Kropatchek on 11/14/07 at 06:26:43 Savage_Greg wrote:
You did not fit the rings upside-down????????????? Just curious |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 06:42:27 Kropatchek wrote:
Let me just say that "I don't think so". If I did, I'll add it to "don't do what I did" :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 08:02:20 Oh yeah...130 miles ago :P http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CombustionChamber.jpg |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/14/07 at 10:36:29 Greg, Again, good luck. And, I'm pretty sure you know the drill: measure, measure, measure. The Piston to cylinder tolerance is real small. I also wonder if the rings might have moved when you put then in. In other words, the gaps not spaced 120 degrees apart. TMACK |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Dr_Jim on 11/14/07 at 11:05:01 - |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 11:32:08 T-Mack1 wrote:
That is a thought. I did position them before I installed the ring compressor. I'll know this afternoon :) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 11:38:53 Dr_Jim wrote:
Funny, there are a couple rules of thought. Some think that you should not clean the ring grooves if you are reinstalling the old rings. That's what I did this time. Yeah, new rings are about ordered from Power Sports Pro. Looking at a new piston here :) Piston (http://www.pistons-online.com/motorcycle1.asp?br=Suzuki&st=43&end=43) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 11/14/07 at 11:54:52 97?! |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by thumperclone on 11/14/07 at 12:25:48 Savage_Greg wrote:
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/14/07 at 13:00:58 $147....wow, ......the stealership only charges $104.61 for the first oversize(kit plus pin & circlips). or...$100.61 for std (adding everything up). And....Ron Ayers should be cheaper..... http://www.blackmanscycle.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?category=Motorcycles&make=Suzuki&year=1997&fveh=1886 |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 15:55:32 T-Mack1 wrote:
I appears that the gap on the 1st and 2nd were nearly in line with eachother :( I bet that I turned them using the ring compressor and didn't know it.... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/14/07 at 16:01:31 Ed_L. wrote:
The cylinder is right about .001 under the limit for an overbore :P As for the rings, looking at them today and comparing them with the manual...they are toast. The 1st and second rings have no bevel on the outside corners anymore. The edges are sharp. The free end gaps are WAY over the limit too. The oil ring can't really be measured but it hardly protrudes from the ring groove at all. The top and bottom rails are sharp on the edges. The good news is that the ring grooves are still within the service limit, and the piston measures in spec too. The piston pin is good too. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by verslagen1 on 11/15/07 at 06:49:27 How many miles were on it? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/15/07 at 08:45:55 Greg, I did a double check of my melted piston. It's rings were shot too. You might want to check the oil passages to make sure no sealant is bocking or restricting the flow. TMack |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 09:05:55 T-Mack1 wrote:
Haven't seen anything, but of course, my piston isn't damaged and a "lack of oil" wasn't the problem :P Now, I've got a piston to sell ;D |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 09:08:27 Reelthing wrote:
Neat eh? Makes it a 668 :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 09:15:20 T-Mack1 wrote:
Thanks for that link. Shows an OS .5MM piston set at $90.60. I actually have a small shopping list of things to replace and have been comparing the "bottom line" with Bike Bandit, Ron Ayers, and Power Sports Pro (lowest by $12). Now I'll check with them, too. Now...do I wanna go to an OS 2MM piston...decisions, decisions...:P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by smokin_blue on 11/15/07 at 09:23:00 Come on Greg!! Team up with Lancer and create the Monster Block for this bad boy!!! 8) go for a 866 instead!!!! Think of it! CNC billet cylinder with a new sleeve and its off to the races ;D Think of the compression you could get with the stock head :o Let's make that thing rumble in more ways than one!! |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 09:30:13 smokin_blue wrote:
Yeah, let's test the crank and counter balancer to it's limits too ;D Didn't Lancer mention a 4 MM OS piston? A 700 would be cool... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 11/15/07 at 09:55:29 Savage_Greg wrote:
so you going for the 97mm? that will bring up the compression a little bit as well |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 10:11:19 Reelthing wrote:
Thinking about it. As long as there is still another overbore size anyway. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Reelthing on 11/15/07 at 11:48:52 I thought (at least on commerical pistons) that was it for the savage cylinder +1mm@96mm piston(97mm cylinder bore) and +2mm@97mm piston(98mm cylinder bore) |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/15/07 at 12:33:47 Savage_Greg wrote:
The Suzuki OS kit doesn't inculde the wrist pin & circlips (I know this from experience). I was told to always replace the pin with the piston. I tacked those on to the price I gave. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/15/07 at 12:35:38 also, choice is go all out and max the bore or go in steps each time yoiu have to rebuild. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by islandwahine on 11/15/07 at 17:58:40 Hats of to you Greg!!! This is a "tad" beyond my abilities :P. Hope you get it fixed! |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/15/07 at 19:11:22 Savage_Greg wrote:
I find that most MC cylinders have a slight taper at the bottom to facilitate getting it all together easily. Ours included. Maybe they moved when they got past the ring compressor but before they got to the regular cyl wall. I didn't use a compressor. I marked (with a sharpie) the piston at each 120 deg point, with an extra mark where I wanted the gap for each ring to be. Then used thumbs and two pieces of plastic to get each ring into the taper one at a time. It goes slower and more wear & tear on the old thumbs, but I was sure where the rings went in. Also, my old timer friend said to use WD-40 or CRC to lube it when putting it back together. The rings will seat faster. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 21:27:50 Reelthing wrote:
The first OS piston (as far as I understand) is .5 MM. The bore/cylinder difference is about 1 MM, though. I'd have to go back down to the garage, but I think you are right. |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 21:31:02 T-Mack1 wrote:
No, that makes sense. Parts that wear together should go together, so I plan to sell this piston with the pin. They are both above service limit. I also think that a set contains a pin and rings...No??? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 21:36:00 islandwahine wrote:
"Tad" beyond? Come on. This ain't no "little woman" thing. You rebuilt forks, fixed a muffler, rebuilt a carb, installed a beeper, and built a bike stand. You can do this too. You're not kidding me. All ya gotta do is get in there once. :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 21:45:19 T-Mack1 wrote:
Oh, I always use gracious quantities of oil. My oil can is always handy...got a little moly B in it too. Everything was lubed ;D Funny though, in the 2 previous jobs, I installed the rings as you mention because the cylinder studs are in the way and are difficult to get around with a compressor. I'd just ease them in slowly...the cylinder is tapered on the bottom. This time I tried a "new fangled" type ring compressor (not the old kind) that I bought because I wondered if it was better. As it turned out...I don't like it. I don't think it caused this problem, but the ring compressor is difficult to use in between those studs. This ring compressor may have actually had a problem with the cylinder taper...now that I think about it! Anyone want to buy a ring compressor? |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/15/07 at 22:09:41 Those of you that have known me during the last 3-4 years, are probably thinking, "Here we go again", but... ...here we go again. You've seen photos like these before :P This is about like my last project in NC, before we moved. Should I start a new topic? I don't know. I just know that I gotta go back through the motor and do some more mods to the frame before spring comes :P Here is my frame again. It's on my "standard" bike stand 8) http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/GMD07_Frame_1.jpg Here's my engine. It sits on a "Poor Man's Engine Stand" ;D http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/GMD07_Engine_1.jpg |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by Hell, Billy on 11/15/07 at 23:38:46 So that`s your final call? The rings are the culprit? Do we get a prize for guessing? ::) ::) ::) B ps; `scuse me for being a brat, I really do know what a PITA [and expense] all the extra wrenching is, good luck getting it all back together. There`s seldom any point in taking short cuts on a rebuild, I`ve been going thru this on my`25 Indian motor. Someday I`ll tell all about it. It`s taken years. No Scout parts at the Big A. |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by Savage_Greg on 11/16/07 at 05:01:02 Hell, Billy wrote:
Yep. I am a little surprised by all this, but I can't find any other logical reason for all the oil in the combustion chamber. Even the chance that the valve guide seals are leaking doesn't fit this situation. That only causes small puffs of smoke on startup I think it is actually a combination of things. The cylinder was glazed and there was a small gouge in the wall (not sure how it got there). The honing I did to correct that problem mixed with the used rings is the best I can figure...add 130 miles of riding and the rings went bad. At any rate, this topic ought to go to the Cafe now...this wrench is gonna do more than just fix the engine now that winter is moving in...and this bike has always been a "work in process" and I want to get her ready for the next FSSNOC ride :P PS - if I ever get this bike the way I'd like it, then a restoration project, like your Indian, sounds like fun. Maybe someday :) |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by Savage_Greg on 11/16/07 at 05:15:23 BTW - My shopping list of parts is gonna include, not only a set of rings, but a bunch of other stuff that I have reused several times... - Tab lock washer for the clutch - Circlip for the chain tensioner - 4 valve stem seals - Oil seal for the Decomp lever - O-ring for the cylinder head - Tab lock washer for the Cam Gear - Head gasket - Cylinder gasket - Piston - Rings Plus there are a couple hints of what else I have in mind, in the photo above.... :P |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by T-Mack1 on 11/16/07 at 06:04:05 Savage_Greg wrote:
Be careful to not "over lube". With WD40 / CRC the rings seat in 50 - 100 miles. The Moly, even though a great lube, may extend that time......too slippery.... |
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Title: Re: Very "Interesting" Thing Just Happen Post by Savage_Greg on 11/16/07 at 06:47:52 T-Mack1 wrote:
I just mix a little with the oil. Had to use the stuff for the new cam shaft anyway (cam looks just fine, btw) The only real problem is that the "slippery" condition got "slipperier" after 100 miles. It was funny how the engine was doing fine during our longer ride, but after it cooled down over night, it had a problem. Guess that I can just be thankful that it got me home :P |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by Ed_L. on 11/16/07 at 17:13:33 Man your rebuild is killing me, I'm a long way wear wize from needing to do a overhaul on my '02 but the motorhead in me is screaming to do a tear down and a performance rebuild. Gotta calm down and have another brew. Going one size over on the piston is standard cause the machine shops charge per oversize cuts. Going two over sizes cost twice as much as cutting the bore for one oversize. You would also loose some mass in the cylinder wall and could run a little hotter with a 2x overbore. That being said, life is short, if it is apart again go for the max for what you can afford and then some. ;D |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by Savage_Greg on 11/17/07 at 07:17:19 Ed_L. wrote:
It's funny. When I was younger, I rode my bikes until they broke and then fixed them only as much as I needed to get it going again. I didn't do much in the way of performance stuff because it took more time or money for that kind of thing. I just rode and cleaned them. Now, that I'm older, it's more about what "can I do?" and this Savage is the guinea pig :P |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Savage_Greg on 01/03/08 at 22:26:51 Back to Dr_Jim...more brainstorming Didn't you ask me if the valve guide seals could be leaking? I got around to looking at the head again, and noticed a lot carbon build up on the outlet side of the exhaust valve seats. In fact, there is carbon build-up on the valve seat itself. Can leaking valve seals do that in 130 miles? |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by T Mack 1 on 01/04/08 at 10:31:50 On the seat face???? Carbon build up, two reasons, too much gas or trying to burn oil..... (Yes - No ????) :-? Brainstroming here: I thought the face gets "cleaned" everytime the valve closes. In other words, the seat gets wiped off by the movement of the valve on it at contact. If the guide seal was leaking, wouldn't the carbon be a tiny bit greasy around the immeidate area? But then again, I guess the exhaust gas temp would be enough to dry out just about anything....... Next..... if the seal was leaking, would the carbon get the chance to get to the valve "seat" durning the exhaust stroke? Wouldn' the gases push/pull it down the pipe? |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by Savage_Greg on 01/04/08 at 11:39:27 0A73133F3D356F5E0 wrote:
First off, we can eliminate gas as the source of the carbon. The carb, petc0ck, tank, and all that is just fine. As well, I'm actually running leaner than most with a 152.5 main. Yes, carbon on the seat face. On the ground sealing surface. Yes, I thought the seat would be cleaned by the valve operation (though it should be burning clean anyway). The area "beyond" the valve seat has a generous build-up of carbon in the port...the port that was spotless 130 miles earlier. I, too, figure that oil leaking through the valve seal would be blown out the exhaust and never enter the cylinder. In fact, I always thought that leaking valve seals only leaked "a little bit" from gravity after the engine was off anyway...and smoked a bit on startup. SOooo, it would seem that the oil must entering the flow before the exhaust valves rather than after them. Right? Still sound like rings/piston/cylinder? |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Max_Morley on 01/04/08 at 13:08:52 Greg wondered how you cleaned after the hone job? My engine books say to wash the cylinder with hot soapy water and dry it and then use clean shop towel(s) wetted with engine oil and swab the cylinder until no grey machining residue is left on the oily towel. Is it has to come out clean before you are done. Just a thought that maybe there was enough residue left from the honing to finish off the rings. Just an idea. Have you rechecked the end gap since dis-assembly?Max |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Savage_Greg on 01/05/08 at 08:10:30 624E577062405D434A562F0 wrote:
Good thought. Well, ah, er, I can't say that I went to extremes to wipe off the honing residue. I did take it into the kitchen though (when the spouse was away) :P End gap on one of the rings is over and one is under spec. The oil ring looks worn but no way to measure it anyway. |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by smokin_blue on 01/05/08 at 11:37:18 In the shop we always washed them in hot water with dish detergent and carefully scrubbed down the cylinder walls. You want to make sure you get all the machining/honing residue off. Then dry it quickly and IMEDIATELY wipe on some engine oil with a clean rag. Also, if you are ever doing a two stroke make sure you break the edge on the ports after boring or you can kiss your new pistons good by! |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by barry68v10 on 01/05/08 at 18:39:45 497C6B6951383B3E0E0 wrote:
Not sure how I overlooked this little bit o' fun for so long... :o Anyway, now that I've seen it, I'll throw in my 2 cents. First, a leaking valve seal can have various symptoms depending on just how much they are leaking. At any rate: if the rings aren't sealing you can burn a whole lot of oil in a hurry, if that's coupled with leaking valve seals, carbon CAN build up pretty quickly and start blocking valves from seating. Second, I didn't notice anywhere a mention of cross-hatching on the cylinder walls... Last thought, I don't remember how much more you bored it, but thinner cylinder walls can flex quite a bit and make the whole thing worse. I'm interested to see how this whole thing turns out... BTW, welcome to the club :D |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Kropatchek on 01/06/08 at 05:52:42 Valve seal-leakage symptomes: When closing the throttle blue smoke from the exhaust. |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Savage_Greg on 01/06/08 at 06:34:50 7049544B5A4F58535E503B0 wrote:
Yeah, with the higher vacuum. Nope, best I could tell, it did it under normal running and accel. |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by nef584 on 01/21/08 at 15:36:10 HELP!!!!!! I just removed the Plug from the Idle mixture screw and while turning the screw I STRIPPED IT!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[ ( I'm a DUMMY)Now I can't turn it either way and my bike is stalling... >:( >:( I adjusted the Idle screw( the one on the left side) it keeps running but it runs funny.... Someone please help MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by T Mack 1 on 01/21/08 at 19:52:38 444F4C2A0 wrote:
You may want to start a new thread on this..... Stripped as the screwdriver slot or stripped as the threads?? Turning it in you should only go to a light contact. Turning it out it should fall out.. ?????? |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by Savage_Greg on 01/21/08 at 22:52:49 This doesn't sound very interesting :P Yeah...how is it stripped? Did you hit the screw with the drill bit? |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by nef584 on 01/22/08 at 07:09:20 Yeah, I know not interesting, heard it before etc... but what can I say but DOH!!! :o It's tripped badly on the screwdriver slot. |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continues Post by nef584 on 01/22/08 at 07:15:16 Yup I hit it with the drill bit... :-[ I tried making a new slot by tapping a small screw driver with a hmmer but the screw will not budge. :-? Will a reverse drill bit work in getting the screw out without damaging the thread much? |
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Title: Re: A Very "Interesting" Thing...Continu Post by ALfromN.H. on 01/22/08 at 07:22:25 there is a thread in the Tech section http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1159393743 it deals with the carb. screws but should be the same |
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