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Message started by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 08:35:47

Title: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 08:35:47

We only rode 80 miles yesterday, but we were sight-seeing, stopping for lunch at local diners, etc too. Plus, I got us lost on some back roads, but what can I say. They were nice roads, anyway.

This was my first real test of my chain conversion in "all round" conditions. Highway speeds, bumper to bumper, mountainous hills and winding curves.

As we know the Savage40 has stock pulleys with a 23/68 ratio of 2.96 to 1.

On mine with a 17/45 set of sprockets my ratio is 2.64 to 1.

I asked my spouse to take the lead during our ride (after I got us lost :P), but I asked her to stick to the speed limit so I could watch my speedo. As it turned out, when she was doing a steady 40 mph, my speedo was reading 35.

Now, for the most part, I like the chain conversion. It is lighter, and since I use a "chain wax", I'm not bothered with a bunch of spin off. The chain doesn't make much noise (the best that I can hear) and is easy to adjust.

As well, this particular ratio of 2.64 is really comfortable at an indicated 60. The bike pulls along nicely without as much vibration. However, this ratio is a bit too low if you like the way a stock bike pulls from a stop. Gotta slip the clutch a good bit more at lights, etc. Also, if you are bumper to bumper then 1st gear is too high and 2nd gear is too low to just pull along at 25. You are kinda lugging it.

Then in mountainous areas or winding curves (or both), the power is a bit too high up in speed for downshifting, pulling out of curves, and accelerating up a long grade. The bike just feels kinda underpowered around 40-50. So the biggest advantage is vibration (and mileage, I suppose) at interstate speeds.

So, essentially what I'd probably would like is a gear set change for 5th, but since that's not likely to happen, I'm gonna buy a new front sprocket and chain for that kinda of riding. Save this setup for the longer distance high speed trips, too. Would probably only take 30 minutes to swap them as needed.

Since the stock ratio is close to 3 to 1 (one front tooth = 3 on the rear) and a 15/45 is about the same, I'm gonna split the difference with a 16/45 setup for a 2.81 ratio.

Now, I could also change it in smaller amounts by 1 tooth increments on the rear, but that would be harder to swap before each ride.

For myself and my preferred type of riding the 17/45 is just not quite right. How have others found their chain conversion to behave or perform?

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by strangeling on 10/29/07 at 11:12:11

Greg,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the chain conversion as I am in the process of buying the sprockets to do the conversion. I have also heard similar comments on the 43/17 but have heard by dropping the front to a 16 tooth it gives more of a happy medium between doing less highway RPM's and retaining a nice feel for around town riding.

I'm going to try the 43/16 as a starting point but I would be interested in hearing some other points of view from people who have actually done the conversion.

Thanks,

Glenn

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by gary_ona_savage on 10/29/07 at 13:41:52

I did the conversion with a 17/43 setup two weeks ago and have had a chance to do some near by rides. Fortunately, "nearby" is both flat and foothills. I'm a "modest" rider, not a On-Off throttle cranker. So here's my opinion so far. I replaced my Sigma bike speedo with a wireless and worthless one from WallyWorld (aka walmart), so speeds are estimates.

I've found the 17/43 is good around town and very good on the freeway. I can run at an indicated 60-65 (est 70-75) in 5th pretty effortlessly at a very low rpm. In fact, I found that I had to run in 4th in traffic occasionally. When I turn up the throttle, I passed everything. Ran it up to 75 indicated, but I was bucking some wind and my windshield was not adjusted to the right angle. Otherwise I could have pushed it on up to 80+ indicated. So it is a great road setup.

Then I took a ride through the foothills with two steep inclines. Took the modest stuff with no problem, but the steep made it feel pretty underpowered. The two steep inclines come out of some curves you take in 3rd and I usually can accelerate up them into 4th. Not so with this setup. I can accelerate in 3rd, but can't shift to 4th. It just lugs in 4th.

I was thinking if I could do a setup like a bicycle where you could have multiple sprockets on the front or back and switch between them...

Anyway, planning a few long distance runs up and down California, mainly central valley/central coast, over the next few months so I'll stay with this setup for a while. And then in the Spring, maybe try a 16 front to see how it runs in the mountains.

Added: I do want to add that I left the stock belt guard on. With the 17/43 setup the chain occasionally "touches" the belt guard when you get on the throttle, making a loud clang. Nothing serious, but it scared me to death the first time it did it.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by jk on 10/29/07 at 13:45:19

Anyone do a conversion on a 4-speed Savage? Results? I want to do the conversion and am wondering what kind of real-world results I'll get.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by barry68v10 on 10/29/07 at 14:01:44

I have a 17/43 setup in the Baltimore/DC area. I find that on the highway, this setup is great! In town and in traffic I just downshift and can find a reasonably acceptable gear, but the advantage for me on the highway more than makes up for the inconveniently huge jump from 2nd to 3rd. Interestingly enough, before I saw this post, I was riding home thinking, "I'm sure this bike could use a 17/39 for highway use." Granted, I generally drive on interstates at 70-75 mph...

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by gary_ona_savage on 10/29/07 at 14:17:46

barry68v10 wrote:

IMHO, it would need better aerodynamics to use a 17/39.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 14:59:40

strangeling wrote:

You do realize that your 43/17 is 2.53, the 43/16 is 2.68 and my 45/17 is 2.64? The difference of 4/100th is not gonna be much better than what I have now. The 45/16 will be half way between stock and this.

It is also easier if you start with a larger rear sprocket and go up or down on the front. Might also give you a better angle for chain clearance over the swingarm. I chose the larger rear for that reason because (if you think about it) the stock pulley diameters are way bigger than the sprockets. Larger angle.

Just a thought.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/29/07 at 15:03:20

gary_ona_savage wrote:

IMHO, it would need better aerodynamics to use a 17/39.

I 'm not so sure. I don't know if the runway would be long enough...39/17 = 2.29 might be lugging it too much in 1st gear :)

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by gary_ona_savage on 10/29/07 at 15:13:56

Savage_Greg wrote:

I 'm not so sure. I don't know if the runway would be long enough...39/17 = 2.29 might be lugging it too much in 1st gear :)

Very true. I was thinking end result once (if) you got it to 5th. BUT...wouldn't it be cool at the Salt Flats! Worlds Fastest Savage ;D

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by strangeling on 10/29/07 at 15:38:08

_{On mine with a 17/45 set of sprockets my ratio is 2.64 to 1}

My bad Greg I thought you were running a 17/43 not 17/45.

So with running a 16/45 what kind of drop in RPM's could we expect over stock at around 70-75 mph ?

And what are you all using for spacers with the front sprocket ?

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by barry68v10 on 10/29/07 at 16:15:17

Quote:

I chose the larger rear for that reason because (if you think about it) the stock pulley diameters are way bigger than the sprockets. Larger angle.

I absolutely agree! You should always use the largest sprockets you can for the gear ratio you want. You will get less chain wear that way buy limiting the rotation on individual chain plates relative to the pin. Another sprocket design consideration is to use sprockets with numbers of teeth to ensure there's an even distribution of teeth meshing with individual chain links. Prime numbers are best, 13,17,19,23...41, 43, 47, etc., that way numbers of links don't become an additional wear factor.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by hutch on 10/29/07 at 19:51:08

strangeling wrote:

I can answer that for you. Going with a 16/45 will decrease your rpm at 70mph by only 200 rpm from the stock gearing. You can use the center of a sprocket as a spacer like I did in the first conversion, or you can use the appropriate amount of washers as others have since then. I am glad to see so many others are finding the advantages to the chain drive. A lot of people thought I was nuts when I said I would figure out a way to do it. It sure is nice to tailor your machine for the weight you carry and the type of terrain you ride in. Going with a 45 back sprocket limits you to only 2 options before you are back to a almost stock gearing. Stock is 2.94. With a 17/45 you have a 2.65 ratio, a 16/45 gives you 2.81. When you use a 43 back sprocket you have 3 options before getting close to stock. A 17/43 gives you a 2.53 ratio, a 16/43 gives you a 2.69, and a 15/43 gives you a 2.86. With a 16/43 combo you will shave 375rpm off from the stock rpm at 70mph. That is the reason I went with a 43 back sprocket on the original conversion. Michigan is pretty flat and I don't carry a passenger. My bike is lightened and I only weigh 150.In town at 25mph, I am in 3rd gear with no lugging. 35mph puts me in 3rd. Passing at anything over 40mph requires no downshift from 5th gear. I shave 630 rpms off at 70mph compared to the stock belt ratio. The 17/43 is perfect for my weight and type of roads I ride. Hutch

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Odar on 10/30/07 at 12:48:30

Started with the 17/43 (2,53) and are using 16/43 (2,69), changed after a few days riding because I thought it was a to big step betwen 2 and 3 gear. I always run this bike without passenger and my weight is 80 kg (176 lb), have tuned the bike with pipe, KN and carb so that might be the reson that I think this is perfect, dont know howe it work on a stock bike.
Glenn I thought you did the chain converion ???, come on dont wait any longer, you want regret it ;D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Odar1/IMG_5739.jpg?t=1193774278
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Odar1/IMG_5741Bakgrundlitengaussianeye.jpg?t=1193774541
Odar

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/30/07 at 13:07:45

jk wrote:

Anyone do a conversion on a 4-speed Savage? Results? I want to do the conversion and am wondering what kind of real-world results I'll get.

Your gearing is different from the primary drive all the way through 4th gear. Your final belt ratio is the same.

The '87, for example, has a 4th ratio of 21/24 or .875 to 1

The 5 speeds have 4th at 22/23 or .956 to 1, and 5th at 23/26 at .884 to 1 (both are kind of overdrive)...

But that is a bit deceiving because your primary is geared lower...

The 4 speeds have a primary ratio of 68/36 or 1.888 to 1.

The 5 speeds have a primary ratio of 67/37 or 1.810 to 1.

In the end, I bet that you'll be safe to start at about 16/45 anyway.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by barry68v10 on 10/30/07 at 13:21:03

Although....if this is primarily for a gear ratio change and you only want a 5% change (16/45 is close to 5%) then I'd just opt for a 140/90/15 tire next time and call it a day, but that's just me :-/

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by strangeling on 10/30/07 at 13:39:12

Hey Odar,

I know I know I was going to do it months ago. I have now ordered the sprockets and chain so they should arrive this week so I should finally have the chain conversion done within the next 2 weeks. :P

Glenn

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by hutch on 10/30/07 at 14:58:56

One must also take into account that if you have that taller tire, you already lowered the ratio, so using a 45 rear, or a 16/43 is your best bet in that situation. Thanks for remindfing me of that Barry68v10. I believe that is why Odar went with a 16/43, if I remember correctly. JK. I agree with Greg on the 4 speed conversion, I think that would be a good place to start because of the difference in the transmission ratios. Hutch

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Odar on 10/30/07 at 23:01:43

Hutch your memory is correct, when I changed to chain I did have a bigger rear tire 150/80/15 but that was for a short time, I change to original size 140/80/15 Metzler and I still thought that 17/43 was a bit to low in gearing, I will go on with 16/43 as my shoice, even if I can think of change to 17/43 for long rides on the highway, take 15-30 minutes to change.
Odar

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/31/07 at 09:30:01

barry68v10 wrote:

But your ratio will change as your tire wears down :P

Oops, I guess they all do ::)

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by govmule84 on 10/31/07 at 14:37:30

17/43 here...I love it. If you do some simple bolt ons like exhaust and jets, the stoplight power doesn't get missed that much, but being able to cruise 77 or so on the highway feels good (70 mph in MO)

I get nervous when I'm near WOT and don't have that extra squirt of power to get out of a hairy situation. The chain conversion removed that for me.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by barry68v10 on 10/31/07 at 16:16:39

Savage_Greg wrote:

But your ratio will change as your tire wears down :P

Oops, I guess they all do ::)

...and if you're "heavier than...um...more swollen than others" :P

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 11/03/07 at 06:43:24

barry68v10 wrote:

...and if you're "heavier than...um...more swollen than others" :P

I prefer to call it "maturity"...

Gee, maybe I should drop it down to a 13/45 ;D

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 11/03/07 at 06:49:45

govmule84 wrote:

Yeah, I agree with the improvement at highway speed, but where I was disappointed happened on a 2 lane grade where acceleration wasn't possible without really winding a lower gear. Also, casually entering a good corner in 4th gear didn't allow the same roll-on power on the other side.

What we need are some serious power upgrades to compensate for the lower RPMs. Maybe that 700 overbore is the way to go.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by mpescatori on 11/05/07 at 09:31:05

I've been thinking...

... If I need a spacer at the rear and a spacer at the front sprockets, because the pulleys are "oh-so-much" thicker...

...why not try the "twin ratio" sprocket approach ?

17/45 on the inside (final drive ratio = 2.64)
14/41 on the outside (final drive ratio = 2.929)

That way, all you have to do is undo the master link, switch sprockets to ride on, loosen/tighten a bit the rear wheel, and you're off !!!

:D Yes ? :D

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by hutch on 11/05/07 at 19:29:24

mpescatori wrote:

I did not need a spacer at the rear on mine, just bolt to rear hub. The chain runs perfectly straight. I'm not sure where you came up with that???? Did anyone else have to use a REAR spacer on their conversion????? The only way I could see you would need a rear spacer, is if someone bought a rear sprocket with the correct bolt pattern, but it had the teeth in an offset pattern. With the correct, no off set, sprocket you only need the spacer on the trans sprocket to take up the extra room between the sprocket and the washer and nut. Hutch

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 11/06/07 at 04:49:30

mpescatori wrote:

Yeah...I dunno where that idea came from. You don't need any spacers on the rear and only 1 spacer under the nut on the front. The sprockets line up just fine, as is.

There is a stock spacer behind the front pulley, but you use that with the new front sprocket.

As for the dual sprocket idea, that is the logical next step and would be neat if someone figured that out. Chances are that you'd need to separate lengths of chain though. One for each configuration. One tooth on the front is equal to about 3 on the back, and 1 tooth on the back would hardly be worth the trouble anyway.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by hutch on 11/06/07 at 06:22:16

I was thinking about the rear spacer thing last night, before I went to sleep, and the only thing I could come up with, was that maybe if you made the mistake of putting the spacer for the front sprocket on first and then the sprocket you would think you needed to space the rear sprocket. As far as the dual sprockets go, I could see one big problem. The shaft on the transmission would not be long enough. You would have to put a spacer between the two front sprockets to keep the chain from hitting the other sprocket. I used a standard width sprocket center for my spacer and had to disc sand the side down slightly to get the splined washer to fit on the shaft. There is no way you could put a spacer between the sprockets and still have enough shaft left to use the washer. I could see no problem with the rear. If you used 2 offset sprockets facing away from each other, but like Greg said, you would need a much smaller rear sprocket to make much of a change, and along with that a shorter chain when you switched to the smaller sprocket. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would take some work. Hutch

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by rigidchop on 11/06/07 at 18:03:22

just use two master links.

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by hutch on 11/06/07 at 19:10:13

rigidchop wrote:

just use two master links.

I guess you missed my point. The width of 2 sprockets on the transmission shaft takes up all the room without a spacer in between to keep the side of the chain from binding on the larger sprocket when using the smaller sprocket. The transmission shaft would have to be lengthened. Hutch

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 11/07/07 at 07:20:44

hutch wrote:

I think that he was speaking to me...2 master links to achieve 2 chain lengths. Which would work too :P

Title: eBay- Better than a garage sale...
Post by jk on 11/19/07 at 14:06:27

Getting ready to fire up that chain conversion... Sold some stuff on eBay and can finally afford it. ;D

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by rigidchop on 11/19/07 at 18:22:55

i was replying to greg

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by hutch on 11/20/07 at 08:22:08

rigidchop wrote:

i was replying to greg

sorry for the confusion. hutch

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 11/20/07 at 08:45:30

rigidchop wrote:

i was replying to greg

...And I admit that I hadn't thought of that. Wasn't thinking outside the box :P

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by govmule84 on 11/20/07 at 11:07:47

BTW, the speedo being off is the reason I indicate 1oo mph with a passenger, I believe. I think my speedo is optimistic.

I wasn't fibbing!

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Oldfeller2 on 11/21/07 at 03:46:27

$15 to buy a Sigma Sport electronic speedo can fix that "how fast am I really going?" question for you.

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by Savage_Greg on 11/24/07 at 06:54:29

govmule84 wrote:

BTW, the speedo being off is the reason I indicate 1oo mph with a passenger, I believe. I think my speedo is optimistic.

I wasn't fibbing!

The chain conversion makes the speedo indicate less than the actual MPH. So, you were actually going over 100 MPH :P

Title: Re: Chain Conversion - Personal Evaluation
Post by jk on 01/26/08 at 07:34:27

Rather than start a whole new thread... I just pulled the trigger on the necessary gear to do the chain conversion. \m/ 8-) \m/ Going with the 16/43 to start.