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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Intermittent Starting to Overheating... (Resolved)
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Message started by constrapolator on 10/29/07 at 05:29:06

Title: Intermittent Starting to Overheating... (Resolved)
Post by constrapolator on 10/29/07 at 05:29:06

I've had this intermittent problem that's been driving me absolutely bonkers for the past 2 or 3 months now. Initially, the problem was that the bike would turn over, but not fire. My steps were as follows:

1> Was lazy and took the bike to the shop for a level 1 maintenance and diagnostic (for this problem). The tech said he couldn't find any problem and that the bike worked fine. Maintenance completed. A couple of weeks later...problem repeats itself.

2> Checked the battery and found that it was out of fluid. Bought a brand new aftermarket battery, then the bike started fine. Of course, the next day -- the same problem.

3> I then immediately took off the seat, the tank, then looked at the bike and planned my next steps. Reassembled it and tried it "just for the heck of it" -- it worked great. In fact, when I get her started, she runs fine. Next day, wouldn't start.

4> I checked the electrical system. Inspected all connections for corrosion and cleaned those that could use it. Busted out the multimeter and checked that I had continuity on negative line, no resistance across switches and connections, and 12V on decompression solenoid when bike was started. Everything looked fine. I reassembled the bike...and guess what? Well, OK -- it didn't work after this time. But the next day, I started it -- and it worked! (I think it only works when I want to go on joy rides, and not when I actually need to get somewhere).

5> My next step was the automatic decompression cable adjustment. (rant: Which was written in nonsenseese. First, because Clymer has you rotating the engine in the WRONG direction, and second because it's a good idea to specify which "actuator shaft" you're talking about. There's two: solenoid, and the one in the engine. /endrant) Anyhow, I ended up doing a very very minor cable adjustment. It worked fine. After this I drove my bike for a week or so with no problems.

6> Then, a few seconds after a successful start. It died. I tried to restart, but now the engine wouldn't turn over! After spending hours and hours (going through the troubleshooting checklist, and panicking because the next few items involved broken starting gears or seized pistons). I said "what the heck" and tweaked the decompression cable a bit closer to its original setting. Bike fired up fine.

So now I'm at the point where each time I try to start the bike, I get either:

1> Starts fine
2> Turns, but doesn't fire
3> Doesn't turn

Some observations: It doesn't seem to be related to ambient temperature, though after the bike has been running a while, it seems to start easier. But I do remember a time where it wouldn't start again, after about 10mins of rest. There is oil :P. Fresh battery. Tank spits out gas when I disconnect from carb (as expected), and flows freely when put to PRI. The choke lever does work (when bike is running, there is noticable difference in the choke settings.) I usually start the bike on full choke, wait 30 secs, run on half choke for like 5-10 mins, then when it's warm no choke. If I take it off half choke without running it for 5-10mins, it dies when idle. I do live in the harbor, so corrosion is a possibility.

I'm absolutely stumped. I'm at the point where I'm just reading the manual cover-to-cover "just because." Any ideas?

By the way...Hello all, first post! Great forum ya got here :)

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting
Post by T-Mack1 on 10/29/07 at 18:14:17

Intermittant problems are wonderful.....(NOT!!). They do build character, or make us a character.....

So, since I see that you have a '05, I would say, unless you realy abuse the bike, it is most likely an electrical problem.

First, I would re-check the handle bar switch. Since you say corrosion could be problem, spray some CRC (electrical grade) or WD-40 in there. Then go down to the connector, spray there and check for good & tight connection. There have been posts that found connectors under the tank that where coming apart. I think you've done the rest of the drill, check the rest of the connections.

If the problem is still there, then suspect the decompression controller. It's a timing circuit that controls both the decomp. solenoid and the starter relay (under the seat, like a solenoid too).

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting
Post by constrapolator on 10/29/07 at 20:25:04

Thanks for the advice. I'll give what you recommended a shot -- I'll apply some WD40 and go through the decomp. comtroller testing procedure as outlined in the Clymer manual.

I spent a little more time working on it today. I noticed that if I decrease the amount that the solenoid actuator extends out of the solenoid by a hair that the bike starts (and runs) much easier. However, it started to sputter a bit after the engine got warm...after 30mins or so of riding.

Also, I noticed that the solenoid actuator spring is kinda weak -- the spring doesn't pull the actuator out immediately when the solenoid isn't powered. I don't know if this is as-designed though.

I'll post the results when I get them.

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting ::cry::
Post by constrapolator on 10/30/07 at 01:11:04

Ok, I'm not an idiot... but I seem to have destroyed my engine somehow.

Now it can't run very far, maybe a mile or so before it starts sputtering (pops and misfires). When I increase the throttle, it either dies or sputters more violently. I park to the side, wait for 10 minutes. and it works fine up until halfway back. Rinse and repeat -- eventually I make it back to my sister's house and manage a ride home.

Looks like it's overheating, and I seem to have developed an oil leak somehow. Before the ride in my previous post, my oil level was good. I just noticed that I was out of oil, and added some more. All this by slightly modifying the auto decompression cable?

Time for a drink.

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting ::cry::
Post by Dr_Jim on 10/30/07 at 09:42:14

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Oil leaks and Overhea
Post by Kropatchek on 10/30/07 at 10:20:36

Still think it's an electrical problem.

Here is what I suggest and dont laugh, these problems have been found during trouble shooting.

Check the cable loom going over the frame comming from the ignition switch, could be pinched under the seat.

Sidestand switch: are the spring(s) strong enough to keep the stand up when you go over a bump?

The "general" negative wire. Runs from the neg. of the battery to a single connector behind the LH sidecover. Check and clean the connector.

The single wire from the neutral switch ( blue), look for chafing under the tank.

Wires on the ignition coil, check the spade-connectors

These are simple checks to do and did solve some
(intermittend) problems in the past.

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Oil leaks and Overhea
Post by Reelthing on 10/30/07 at 10:39:34

Likely electrical - but when it sputers and dies - if you drain the carb bowl right then - do you have the expected amount of fuel in the bowl?

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Oil leaks and Overhea
Post by constrapolator on 10/30/07 at 14:22:10

Wow, great suggestions! Thanks!

Good to hear that I probably didn't destroy the engine.

Getting closer!

The vacuum hose has a slight crack in it; I'll snip out the damage and see if it helps.

Instead of just trusting the multimeter, perhaps I should just clean ALL of the connections for good measure. Anyone know of a solution where I could, say, dip the leads overnight to remove any rust/corrosion that might be present? For some connectors, I can't reach the connection to clean...

I'll check the ignitor box for exccessive head, and the 12pin handlebar ignition connector. I do seem to recall it being wedged in an odd location...

How much fuel should one expect in the carb bowl?

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Oil leaks and Overhea
Post by Reelthing on 10/30/07 at 16:01:45

just tiny bit under 2oz in the bowl of the '02

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Oil leaks and Overhea
Post by constrapolator on 11/14/07 at 15:14:59

Thanks for all the help! The problem has been resolved.

After much troubleshooting, I found the problem could be resolved by switching the fuel-thingy to the "PRI" position (Thanks DR_Jim!). Lo and behold, I found a hair-thin crack in my vacuum line. Snipped out the bad part of the line, and everything worked ok!

My suspicion was that the engine appeared to be overheating because the rubber vacuum line was getting warmer along with the engine, causing the crack to expand. Duh!

I imagine that the line was cracked from the umpteen times I had to remove and install the tank while doing all the auto-decompression troubleshooting.

So, it starts fine and runs fine now! Woohoo!

Lol, and here I bought another Savage (pictures to come) because I thought I'd have to take apart the engine or something. These bikes are my only transportation, after all.

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Overheating... (Resol
Post by tinga on 11/30/07 at 12:31:58

check the vacuum hose conection at the fuel valve,no vacuum~ no gas!

Title: Re: Intermittent Starting to Overheating... (Resol
Post by J Mac on 11/30/07 at 17:17:46

Congratulations, constrapolator! You are a very funny dude, by the way. This whole thread had me on the edge of my seat. I liked step 11 - ::cry. That @#$%@ vacuum line to the petr0ck got me too! My 2003 bike only had 1700 miles or so when I got it, and that hose had tiny holes in it. They choose the lousiest thin-walled tubing. I ended up replacing mine with fat fuel line that was difficult to clamp, but I think it will last. I'd like to think Suzuki reads this forum for S40 fixes from year to year, but I doubt it.