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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> What a stud! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1192196343 Message started by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 06:39:03 |
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Title: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 06:39:03 Okay, I had put it in another thread about my little problem with a couple of studs on the head. Not the four main studs, but the smaller studs- the one in the front and the one in the back. http://w3.bikepics.com/pics/2007/10/06/bikepics-1047744-full.jpg My question is how essential are those to maintaining proper torque on the head? I ask because apparently nobody in the United States has these in stock and I might not even be able to get 'em from Suzuki. If they aren't absolutely necessary for torque, I would just plug the holes left behind in the head and move on... Otherwise, I might be boned. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Reelthing on 10/12/07 at 07:24:44 bet there's spares some place perhaps used - do you know the part numbers? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/12/07 at 07:42:17 Hmmm...let's assume they serve a purpose. Looking forward, could you just replace the studs with some other ones? Drill, tap (or helicoil) and use different nuts? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/12/07 at 07:44:05 Oh yeah, doesn't the front stud actually go through to the exhaust port? You have a hole in there, I believe. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by youzguyz on 10/12/07 at 07:48:54 Do you mean items 13 & 14 in this picture? Suzuki 1987 LS650PH SAVAGE-P Cylinder Head (http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/parts/Suzuki/LS650PH+SAVAGE-P/1987/704014) If so.. it looks like Bike Bandit may have them in stock. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 07:50:31 Savage_Greg wrote:
That's why I was asking if they're necessary for maintaining torque on the head- if not, I was going to use what was left of the studs to plug those holes in the intake and exhaust. I've checked about eight different sites and they'd all have to order them from Japan. I could probably easily replace the one stud down at the local equip supply, but the other is pretty specific to this application. I dunno, maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. I ordered them from bikebandit, but they're back-ordered indefinitely... |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 07:51:09 youzguyz wrote:
Yep, those are the ones. They're back-ordered. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by youzguyz on 10/12/07 at 07:54:24 jkhulon73 wrote:
That stinks.. I wish they would say so before you go through all the hassle of placing the order. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 07:58:04 youzguyz wrote:
Yeah, because even though they're back-ordered & if I do find someone that has 'em, I'd still have to pay a 20% re-stocking fee (if I understood their policy right) It's only $2.33, but that's about 45 miles worth of gas on the Savage... |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by mornhm on 10/12/07 at 08:06:45 Can you get a replacement machined at a local shop? Or can you find a wrecked Savage that is being parted out? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by youzguyz on 10/12/07 at 08:16:46 That can't be (or shouldn't be) right. IF they had said up front that it was not in stock, then ok. But they didn't. I would drop them an email and get the straight word on that kind of thing: mailto:Cancel@bikebandit.com |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 08:17:13 Anybody got a wrecked savage with a couple of extra studs lying around? I'd thought about the machine shop route, but I'd have to research it more. I just read through the Clymer's and it would seem, if I read it right, that the four main studs get torqued to spec once the head is put into place and then a step or two later, these two get tightened. It would seem to me that if they were integral to sealing the head to the jug, they'd be torqued at the same time..? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 08:21:21 youzguyz wrote:
Well, if they don't ship in... 18 days, I guess they won't bill me. I can't really do anything until the new and improved cam chain comes in anyway. So I've got a little time to figure out exactly what I need to do. I just want to have everything ready to go when the chain gets here... |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/12/07 at 08:50:47 jkhulon73 wrote:
Yeah, but all of the studs get torqued before the engine runs and gets hot. The "steps" in the process aren't as important as the end result. Anyway, in the SSM the smaller studs are mention at the same time as the larger ones. Funny too, Vtail dropped by yesterday and we discussed these studs and how his are always becoming loose and have the usual little drop of oil. They almost seem pretty ineffective, but I just feel that you need them. Sure would hate to blow a $27 head gasket over a couple studs. How about a cheap used head off of eBay? I hate to mention that I trashed a bad head a couple months ago...I'll remove studs, etc. next time. Got a bike salvage place around there? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Reelthing on 10/12/07 at 09:01:38 looking around - thought I might have some spares - almost every other enigne bit you can name but not the head bolts - may have been in the above mentioned trashed head |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 09:08:42 Savage_Greg wrote:
There's a couple around here somewhere- I just found an online directory. I'm off in a couple of weeks, so I'll have more time to devote to calling around and then scavaging. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by T-Mack1 on 10/12/07 at 10:02:13 jkhulon73, Were they hard to get out? ? ? ? I have a bad head (cam journal destroyed by PO) which has them in. Do you want me to try and get them out? ? ? ? TMack |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/12/07 at 10:04:44 T-Mack1 wrote:
You can remove them if you jam 2 nuts together. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by slavy on 10/12/07 at 10:16:33 COME ON MAN , IMPROVISE ! There is nothing so special about this studs. You can get ANY 8X1.25 stud that is designed to be torqued to about 16 pounds. You can go to Autozone or any other auto retailer and get them . If not- just use 8mm bolts and You are done. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 12:12:24 slavy wrote:
The one on the right? He11 yeah, I can improvise that- no problem. But the one on the left? I dunno... I've been called Mr Wizard before, but that might be a little beyond what I can do in my garage or Home Depot... http://w3.bikepics.com/pics/2007/10/06/bikepics-1047745-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by T-Mack1 on 10/12/07 at 15:05:27 Greg, Thanks, I wasn't sure if Suzuki did anything odd like pin them. Jkhulon73, Studs extracted nicely. Interested? ? ???? T.M. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/12/07 at 15:07:35 jkhulon73 wrote:
I see your point. Of course, this is beginning to beg for another question...:P How the heck did this happen? I know that I had to use a chisel to remove one that was rounded off, but... |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 15:21:40 T-Mack1 wrote:
Sent you a PM! |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jkhulon73 on 10/12/07 at 15:27:38 Savage_Greg wrote:
Well, the oddball looking one snapped on the first twist of the wrench after a 15 minutes soak in WD-40. The other one, after soaking in WD-40 for 45-60 minutes, the nut rounded off instantly as well. I used a Dremel with a teeny tiny (used) cutting wheel to get a chunk out of the nut without damaging the head. Once I had the nut off, I was able to lift the head off, flatten two sides of the remaining damaged pieces of the stud and twist 'em out with a pair of vise grips and a 24" break-over bar (pipe) Those suckers were in there pretty good... |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/07 at 16:06:16 If you have the threads cleared they screw into, you could get a bolt with a long shank( unthreaded part) & run a die down it to make your own stud, maybe? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/12/07 at 17:41:35 Yep this morning my front one was loose again didn't even get 200 miles on my last re-torque. I get the feeling that if I torque this one at this rate (every 300 miles), that I'm slowly pulling the stud out of the head pretty soon. The rear one stays nice and tight. It (the front one) takes the 18 ft/lbs everytime but then it's loose again 300 miles later ( with a tiny bit of oil on it). Go Figure :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/13/07 at 05:58:44 vtail wrote:
You had put a mark on that nut. Did the nut turn or did it just get loose? (Incidentally folks, he showed me the mark the other day) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/13/07 at 10:35:27 That's the thing, it did not turn and was still in the same spot. I torqued it again and the nut turned 60 degrees. So I'm getting suspisious :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/07 at 11:33:01 If the nut isnt turning & it's getting loose, either the stud is stretching( that cant last long) or the therads are pulling( as you already suspect) Did the stud go to the bottom of the threads? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/13/07 at 12:14:38 No the nut is not bottomed out. This is a 4 month old bike with 3200 miles on it. Torqued the head bolts (6) at 600 miles and checked valves at 600 & 1000 miles. I'll just keep this nut lightly tight from now on. I'll contact suzuki so they'll be aware of this problem. After all it's under warranty :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/13/07 at 12:16:19 vtail wrote:
I'm thinking that yours is an exception (to a rule that I can't explain). 1/6 of a turn on a bolt isn't that much. The head is aluminum, so maybe the nut is seating into it. You said that you did your own initial service, right? (meaning it has been done). The head studs are not simple mild steel. They should not stretch and the threads should be harder than the nut. Maybe you can remove the nut and check the threads on the stud or nut next time it is loose. The nut usually leaks a little anyway, which is why I told you about my experimental fix. I think it's in the design of the gasket. No leaks on mine, yet. We'll see how it goes. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/13/07 at 12:42:20 I think that most folks don't check torgue when and even if they detect a very slight leak. I guess I'm just a stickler. On my car I noticed a slight squeel at 43000 miles. The shop told me it was the cambelt tensioner and to come in next week for a replacement (warranty). I told them that a tensioner cycles at a much higher frequency. This frequency was at cam rotation speed at idle. Oh no they knew better. So after coming home I took the belt quard off the engine and since this is direct ignition I parked my Honda 650 Int (running) next to the car and put the induction timing light on to the sparkwire of the bike and aimed the timing light onto the insight of the car's cambelt. This allows you to see the belt like it's standing still. Lo and behold, there were 6 teeth in a row missing. New improved timing belt replaced under warranty. If that belt would have failed all the valves woul have hit the pistons. The manufacturer was aware of cambelt failure before 60000 miles and the shop told me that they replaced several motors. Anyway the car now has 152000 miles on it and the improved belts get replaced every 60000 miles. :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/13/07 at 13:00:47 Yep...I had another thought, and that would be to try a copper washer under those nuts. Just like the larger studs. Maybe the copper would torque and seal better. Just a thought... As for the belt...don't tell Stinger that the dealerships don't know crap. He's gonna ride his cam chain all the way to 50K first...:P |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/13/07 at 13:07:14 Yes, I'll try that copper washer and maybe a little high-temp sealer :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/07 at 14:58:48 My question was, is the stud bottomed in the threads? If it is only pulling on the upper few threads, that aint so okay. BUT, after I saw your troubleshooting & all on the timing belt omn the car I Realize I am no one to ask you if you are on the ball. You are well on the ball, Nice move on that timing belt, |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/13/07 at 15:38:46 The stud looks to be properly seated and after the nut is on 3 treads are showing. :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/07 at 16:08:38 Well, you COULD try ignoring it & pretending it is all good. Maybe you can get 50,000 outta yer cam chain too! |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 10/13/07 at 16:12:59 Oohh Don't start that now again ;D Hell I'll try a 100k and go in the Guinness book of records ;) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/13/07 at 23:10:15 vtail wrote:
I liked your sealer idea too. Clean it all off, squish sealer up in there. Smear some on the threads. Tighten the nut. Wipe off the mess. You might seal the leak and fix the loose bolt all at once. What's it gonna hurt? Somebody's gonna fix this one eventually, just like the cam chain tensioner issue too...:P |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by T-Mack1 on 10/14/07 at 17:22:03 All, Sent JK my old studs. That's the second item off the old head (dead head.....cam journal ... killed by the P.O.) The first was the cam to Lancer. TMack |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by jk on 10/15/07 at 08:07:04 Many thanks to T-Mack for the studs. And BikeBandit cancelled the order with no charges. So I should be good to go once the new cam chain gets here. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by rokrover on 10/15/07 at 18:38:44 I have the same experience as Vtail - the front stud keeps on loosening. One possibility is it is torqued beyond the elastic yield limit, like rod cap bearing bolts, to maintain even pressure. These type of bolts are not reusable. Tightening them just stretches them more without increase in clamping force. Sounds a bit exotic but the safe bet is leave it alone. |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 10/15/07 at 22:20:29 I'm thinking that everyone's just sorta going over the top on these studs. No one's ever had any more problem than leaking and looseness. No compression loss or anything. The studs are silly and under engineered somehow...and no, I don't think it's an issue of "stretching bolts". It's a matter of steel parts with an oil leak and an aluminum head that expands and contracts. This topic started with a broken stud...and I think that the answer to this other stuff is simpler than we think...let's see how Vtail does with copper washers, and... ...besides, my nuts are tight and they don't leak :P |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 11/05/07 at 14:53:33 Update: After the last retorque mid October it has for some unknown reason (Gremlins?) stayed torqued, without copper washer or high temp sealer, for 600 miles now. :) |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 11/06/07 at 05:03:07 vtail wrote:
Is it leaking? |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by vtail on 11/06/07 at 08:35:58 No, not a drop and it stays right at 216 inch/lbs=18ft/lbs (range= 17.0-19.9 ft/lbs). Go figure. :) Think the stud/nut combo just gave up figuring that I am too stubborn. ;D |
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Title: Re: What a stud! Post by Savage_Greg on 11/06/07 at 09:21:07 vtail wrote:
There you go...:) |
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