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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
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Message started by Dr_Jim on 10/07/07 at 23:53:58

Title: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Dr_Jim on 10/07/07 at 23:53:58

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Reelthing on 10/08/07 at 06:38:59

if the intakes were to tight by a good bit - like not on the seat after it warms up - it may very well have scored the seat and the intake valve or perhaps best case just build up - if you have the tools a leak down test might confirm - but on the other hand - since it's been mistreated as you describe - it's also unlikely that clean oil and enough of it was kept in there - so the chain is likely worn a great deal - I'd pull the head and the right side cover.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/07 at 07:12:17

If the chain jumpped, in my thinking (not experience) it would retard the cam. Now it the chain were slack, weather it jumped or not, the timing could float to be advanced. And you'd hear alot of scraping for sure.

There have been reports of cam chain problems as early as 8k.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/08/07 at 09:26:53

In my thinking the chain would not stretch enough to change the timing that severely, and I don't believe there is nearly enough room above the cam gear for the chain to physically come off the teeth...I don't think there is anyway....

However, since you said that initially the valves were adjusted too tight, I suppose it is possible. I assume that you rotated the crank to the timing mark on the left side before adjusting. What if that was misinterpreted as being too tight when in truth the cam lobes weren't actually turned far enough to have the valves fully closed? That would "seem" too tight...and that would mean that now they are really loose and retarded, too.

I'd pull the headcover and check the timing with the horizontal lines on the cam gear.

Oh yeah, from my CD...you can see too little horizontal arrows at the cam shaft marks :P
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamGearTDC_1581.jpg

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/08/07 at 12:16:03

I would pop the plug & left side cover plate, pull valve covers & do a valve check, If you have it at TDC & then move the crank & prove that at TDC isnt the greatest clearance between valves & rockers, then the rockers are oput of time to the crank, IE, cam chain slipped.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Dr_Jim on 10/08/07 at 20:32:20

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by YonuhAdisi on 10/08/07 at 21:29:10

Dr_Jim wrote:

Oh Ye of little Face ....

http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/cam_chain_5a.JPG

Guess that it would be safe to call this tensioner"Fairly Boogered up..."

http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/cam_chain_1a.JPG

Frighteningly enough, it looks like someone had been driving in this condition for a few miles - enough for the tensioner to chew a divot out of the tensioner body.

Ugly - or in the immortal words of William Shakespear "Foo-KED" - pronounced Foo as in Egg Foo Young - KED as in poorly fitting sneakers

I really should trust my mechanical instincts - since I diagnosed the problem over the phone before even seeing the bike, and then spent 3 days fussing to make sure I was correct before finally just puling the case off.

The odometer indicates 13720 miles, the bike is weathered, but not badly abused, and the engine oil looks like high-mileage dinosaur juice.

Verslagen - what should I quote him for a Stage 1 modified tensioner assembly - e.g. pinned, but no extra hole - how long to get one to Seattle, and how best to pay you?

Lancer - Thanks, BTW, for getting the 2nd chain on order - no question he's going to need it.

Cheers

Jim

OUCH!!! And I thought I had boogered up my tensioner.

The milage on the bike is just a tad more than I had on mine when my tensioner went south.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Savage_Rob on 10/09/07 at 05:46:43

That is why the Verslagen1 mod gives me some peace of mind. Should I let mine go long enough that parts need replacing, it'll get noisy and let me know. It won't disengage and self-destruct. The additional Slavy mod lets me reset the plunger and get some extra use of one chain/guide set before I need to replace parts. Together, the VerSlavy mod is one of my favorites.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by verslagen1 on 10/09/07 at 07:10:12

Dr_Jim wrote:

Verslagen - what should I quote him for a Stage 1 modified tensioner assembly - e.g. pinned, but no extra hole - how long to get one to Seattle, and how best to pay you?

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=Market;action=display;num=1180206459

$75 for the Verslagen1 or $115 for the Verslavy by Paypal preferred. PM'd you ;D

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/07 at 10:19:38

I've tried 3 times & the pics wont load,, dawgoneitt!

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by verslagen1 on 10/09/07 at 11:16:07

Dr_Jim,

Your observations have given us new insight on diagnosing adjuster failure! Thanks. ;D

As you're tearing into this (and it might be too late already) see how much the cam timing can float with the adjuster like that.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/09/07 at 14:01:43

Too cool! I guess that I forgot the chain could jump on the bottom gear with enough slack.

And nothing was said about cam chain noise! It ran "like pooh" and made no mechanical sounds? Where did the spring end up?

Since you have to remove the headcover now, perhaps you can find how much the timing has changed.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Dr_Jim on 10/09/07 at 15:28:41

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Oldfeller2 on 10/09/07 at 15:52:21

I think its time to start an organized complaint to Suzuki USA.

===============

Do we have a lawyer in the house? Does somebody know one or is related to one? Is this nonsense grounds for a class action suit or at least a forced repair campaign?

Having these much newer S40 scoots die at 8,000-9,000 miles has been documented 3x now. This is negligent and is a direct result of tensioner spring pressure changes Suzuki made.

Having our older model L650 Savage scoots die in the low teens is documented now at least 4x now. This is with the low grade chain and the old softer tensioner spring.

This IS NOT NORMAL performance from a respectable cam chain tensioning system.

The tensioner coming apart and dropping into the gears like that is POOR DESIGN to say the least.

==============

Do we have a lawyer in the house? Does somebody know one or is related to one? Is this nonsense grounds for a class action suit or at least a forced repair campaign?

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by jkhulon73 on 10/09/07 at 17:06:11

My chain was stretched out at only 7450 miles...

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Reelthing on 10/09/07 at 20:24:12

Great picture - quite fortunate to still have an engine - bet it doesn't take much more from there to make the chain let go and bye bye moving parts

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by PerrydaSavage on 10/10/07 at 00:30:23

Was talking to a former m/c mechanic a few weeks ago who had worked on some Savages that the local Motorcycle Safety Training Course used back in the late 80's, early 90's ... he was aware of the cam chain/tensioner issue back then ... he said it was in his opinion, the major design flaw of an otherwise good engine ... and he told me that he used to advise people to not buy the Savage because of that very flaw ...

I'm with those who would like to pressure Suzuki on the issue ... maybe an on-line petition or something??

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/10/07 at 02:20:33

I know I am onboard for it. It is a real downer as far as I am concerned.

WOW, the Pics loaded! That was close!

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Savage_Greg on 10/10/07 at 07:09:29

Oldfeller2 wrote:

I think its time to start an organized complaint to Suzuki USA.

===============

That's a good idea. I'm sure that Suzuki is aware of this issue too. They just hope that you'll trade up or wreck it before you find that you've bought a time bomb.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by YonuhAdisi on 10/10/07 at 08:45:49

I'd go for that, I would sign a petition or whatever ya'll have in mind.

I really would hate to have to re-do the chain tensioner again at another 13,500 miles. As often as I ride that would probably have me re-doing it every 3 months or so.

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by rokrover on 10/10/07 at 10:02:19

I doubt you would get very far with Suzuki. A better tactic might be to petition the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation on the basis of a safety defect. Having the engine sieze at speed certainly would fit that category. Didn't Suzuki Motors go through something similar with the Samurai model that had a high rollover rate?

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by T-Mack1 on 10/10/07 at 10:09:33

You know Suzuki might he-haw around. A better route might be to look at this as a safety recall.

I would think that failure at 55 MPH could cause an accident.

http://www.cpsc.gov/

Title: Re: Cam Chain/Tensioner Reality Check
Post by Oldfeller2 on 10/10/07 at 16:38:35

Well, it WILL happen. But does it happen without warning? And when it happens does it cause danger of injury or death?