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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> LUCK..or what? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1190380548 Message started by demin on 09/21/07 at 06:15:48 |
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Title: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 06:15:48 :o :oWhew...Was I lucky or what? :o :o http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/09/21/bikepics-1030794-800.jpg |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skatnbnc on 09/21/07 at 06:56:26 Holy smokes! How many miles you got? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 06:57:49 Around 16,000 I think. :-/.I was running the bike about 70 miles a day 40 -70 mph with the noise.I found this site.started reading parked the bike. Still ran. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/21/07 at 08:47:14 Where's the spring? If it stayed in the tensioner, you are beyond lucky. Good thing you found this site. I hope you have access to tools & a welder who will treat you right, or can you weld? I can strike an arc, but I would never put a trailer hitch on a trailer. I would do the extension tab on the tensioner, but it would take me hours to cut & fit & weld & grind. Are you going to take this opportunity to put a cam in it? Considering the condition your engine could be in right now, maybe a new pic of Charlie Brown smiling would be in order? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/21/07 at 09:37:37 I must admit, I have not a clue as to what is wrong in the picture! What is it supposed to look like? Still learning the "finer" details! LOL |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/21/07 at 09:57:14 Island, Look at the gear, on the right, with the oil drip dwon the middle & pool at the lower edge. Follow that oil drip line up to the 2 parts at the very top of the area that is covered by the engine case when it is reinstalled. Note the one on the right, attached to the cam chain that goes around the shaft the gear used as a reference is on. It is pointed up if we look right to left & is leaning on a more silver colored part, tilted up, if we look left to right. They are supposed to fit together, the darker on inside the lighter one. There is a spring inside that thing & That IS the spring loaded cam chain tensioner. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/21/07 at 10:06:18 justin_o_guy2 wrote:
Fit together kinda like a piston? How come it came out? do these parts move or are they stable? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by youzguyz on 09/21/07 at 10:12:55 That is a very long (and sometimes extremely technical) discussion. (Much of it beyond my comprehension level!). Here is a good place to start to see what it is all about: Tensioner mods (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=Market;action=display;num=1180206459;start=0#0) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 10:20:17 I'm going to put a Verslavy in it.He'll have some done soon.The spring actually stayed in but broke in half. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by Max_Morley on 09/21/07 at 12:22:52 And I'll bet that happened to mine as the spring is way to short to push the plunger out of the barrel now. I have the old one and even the aluminum barrel/housing is worn oval at the front only when I found it, it was pointing down rather than up. Sure wish could could get a 'why it does this' answer, rather than lots of speculation by good folks. Suzuki are you watching this board. Max |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 12:30:01 I've said it before. I swear suzuki forgets about all the Savage/s40's they sell. :-/.no parts,no help,Very few revisions.I remember when you could walk into a parts store tell them what you needed bang they had it.Not I'm not showing that model/whatever on the computer.I |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skrapiron on 09/21/07 at 12:37:20 They did change the spring and the tensioner in the 2003-2004 model year. So, they have made some effort... |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 12:41:21 It only took'em 16-18 years. :o.Well I guess that's better than nothing. ;D |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skrapiron on 09/21/07 at 12:43:09 Remember that the Savage disappeared from the market for 7 of those years... |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 12:46:21 Wow I didn't think it was that long. :P |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by YonuhAdisi on 09/21/07 at 12:53:00 At least the springs didn't come out like mine did and almost get caught between the drive gears. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 13:10:33 Yeah I'm feelin' lucky.I had been riding it everyday like that.It's been noisy for awhile.I adjusted valves didn't help.I just figured chain was stretched.kept riding it .doesn't say anything in the Clymers that would hint to it falling apart like that. :o ;D |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/21/07 at 14:41:21 youzguyz wrote:
I have been looking at this in the Marketplace since it went up or close to it.....and worrying!!:-) I think we(some of us newbies) need to get in there(MC) and look to see if we have problems,but I'm not sure how hard it is just to get in there to look. I'll have to get more info(clymers,etc.) and then look before it gets this bad....hopefully. Mine has 8,525 miles(or so) on it....now is a good time for this info to come along,hopefully catch it before it gets bad,or worse :-) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/21/07 at 14:52:04 demin wrote:
I wish you luck on fixing everything.....I dont know what you have to do,but I hope its not too difficult or expensive!! To my little knowledge it sounds like you caught it in time to not do major damage....is this right? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by Ed_L. on 09/21/07 at 15:20:22 YIKES!!!!!!!!!! You got in under the wire. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by fsmidt on 09/21/07 at 15:30:19 http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h5/fsmidt/kettingspanner.jpg heheheh you beat me !!! i thought i was lucky..... ;) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 17:28:05 Freespirit,It,s really not that hard.This is probably gonna sound complicated but it's not. (1)Remove right footpeg assembly (2 nuts) (2)Remove exhaust (3)Disconnect clutch cable at motor (4)Remove side cover(get a piece of cardboard draw something that resembles the sidecover remove bolts and put them in the cardboard in the order you take them out[watch a few have rubber washers on them]) You might be ok for alittle while.But seriously consider a Verslavy tensioner.(Read about it in the tech section I think.Once you read about it you will understand why. ;) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/21/07 at 18:24:50 Looking at this I'm thinking, OK this is one more thing that might be wrong. I don't want to say much, but is there EVER going to be a time when we can just relax ride our bike and have fun!! ??? So far it's only been fix this, fix that, raise this, replace that, Noise here and noise there! aaaaahhhhhhhh. I think I need a break! Lancer where are those jets? :-X (LOL no break yet!) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 19:09:08 I hear ya Island.And if one isn't bad enough I have both savages ripped apart.This is the 86. The 87 motor is apart in it. ;D >:( now you know why I picked Charlie Brown for my picture.Everyday it seems like somebody moves the ball on me.Are we havin' fun yet? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/21/07 at 19:53:36 We're having fun somedays! By the way.... Why does Charlie Brown say good greif instead of good grief? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/21/07 at 20:00:28 I dunno I thought it was i after e except after c :P |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/22/07 at 00:38:55 demin wrote:
I think it's I before E except after C (belief, thief, piece, niece) vs (receipt, deceive, seize) etc. (can't help it! :-/) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/22/07 at 02:31:30 Demin, Don't worry ,only Islandwahine would notice it :-) Actually I think that's the way Charlie Brown would spell it! |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/22/07 at 06:17:45 Island I changed it for ya'. ;DAlways did have trouble with that. :-/ :P |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by Savage_Greg on 09/22/07 at 09:08:57 Wow. Really, why don't you include this post in the one about the cam chain tensioner mods or the better cam chain? This really needs to be there. What's even better is the different mileage numbers for this issue. If the problem was linear or relative to the number of miles, then the photo of my tensioner at 14,000 makes perfect sense when compared to yours. However, when it is compared to Stinger's at over 30,000 I completely run out of theories :-/ After that, I'd say that getting the Verslagy mod is a good choice, but you should also just get a new cam chain. It's more work to change, but that's what caused this in the first place.... |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by Savage_Greg on 09/22/07 at 09:28:39 skrapiron wrote:
This one got my attention too...a lot has been going on here in the last couple days :P I just checked the Ron Ayers microfiche for the "adjuster" for all "Savage40" years. The old number was 12830-24B00 which applies to all years from 1986 to 1995. It was discontinued in 1996. The new number is 12830-24B01 which applies to all years from 1996 to 2005. Are you stating that they changed the adjuster in 2003 and then "retroed" the microfiche listing back to 1996? My 2000 uses the same part number as the '03, '04, and '05. Next question for Demin: You are gonna get a new adjuster, right (I assume that old one is worn out)? Will the new part number retrofit your bike? What is the difference between the 2 adjusters? Can you get some good measurements on the old and new versions? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by Savage_Greg on 09/22/07 at 09:34:52 skrapiron wrote:
Good Greaf! The Savage disappeared from the US market. Wanna see a photo of a 1993? :P |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/22/07 at 10:44:41 Savage_Greg wrote:
Yeah, go ahead and tease me about my compulsive spelling correction habit!! I should have been a schoolteacher! LOL I find my own 2 kids more then I can handle. Anyway, I looked at pictures and layout of the camshaft in Clymer's, cause I couldn't figure out why everyone was referring to a chain. I didn't see a chain anywhere on the bike. Looking (at the photo) inside the engine next to the cylinders I see a chain wrapped around the camshaft sprocket. Is that the chain a lot folks are purchasing on the other special order post? The troublesome one? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/22/07 at 11:19:20 Yep that's the one,and the tensioner. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/22/07 at 11:24:59 Savage_Greg wrote:
So far I haven't seen any dif except in the main spring. I'll go over in a couple of days and let you know. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/22/07 at 15:07:51 demin wrote:
You can give me a hard time, I don't mind!! Seeing greif will keep me on my toes!! |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/22/07 at 18:43:03 islandwahine wrote:
For shame :o Grief Etymology: Middle English gref, from Anglo-French gref, grief injustice, calamity, from gref, adjective heavy, grievous, from Vulgar Latin *grevis, alteration of Latin gravis |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/22/07 at 18:51:41 New vs. old adjuster report. No dif between new and old plunger or housing. Mold ID on old is "1" and "4" on the new. This may be cavity number but on old ones I've only seen 1's and 2's. All the new one's I think have been 4's big dif in main spring. old Ø .384, wire Ø .040, 2.80 length new Ø .330, wire Ø .038, 2.66 length about the same number of coils. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/22/07 at 18:58:57 verslagen1 wrote:
Cool!! |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by josh85716 on 09/22/07 at 22:17:40 hey i asked this in my post, but i just wanted to know who your guy's most reliable parts dealer is, im new to suzuki's |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/22/07 at 22:47:58 I've order from bikebandit, babbittsonline, and crotchrocket.com You have to call around to make sure they have parts, otherwise it will take longer. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skrapiron on 09/23/07 at 06:19:04 Is it possible that the problem with the tensioner does not lay with the design of the plunger OR with the degree of 'chain stretch' at the joining pins, rather it is a case of metal fatigue on the tensioner spring? In every case that people have reported tensioner failure, the spring has broken. Sometimes into several pieces. Is it reasonable to conclude that the plunger design is actually all right and would benefit from the replacement of the stock spring with a stronger one? Case in point. Savage-Greg recently went to service the chain tensioner on a 2002 model year bike with 30K on the clock only to find that the tensioner was still within spec. My question is, did that bike have the old spring, or the new one? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/23/07 at 06:25:02 The spring breaks because of the plunger coming apart.Then spring falls into bottom end of motor. usually getting chewed up along the way. ;)That's why verslagen,and slavy.came up with fixing the problems on them.They made me a believer. ;) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skrapiron on 09/23/07 at 06:30:58 What is the purpose of the spring? To provide counter tension against the cam chain, correct? If my understanding of its function is correct, then as the spring fatigues, it allows for more travel on the plunger. More travel means more slack on the chain. More slack means noise. Eventually, the spring fatigues to a point that it can no longer provide the counter tension against the chain and it allows the plunger to extend beyond the safe limits causing the damage and deformation. That is, of course, my understanding of how the tensioner device works. I could be WAY off base too... |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/23/07 at 06:40:39 The plunger has a ratchet action.It only goes one way, out.what happens the chain stretches so much the plunger basically over extends itself.The spring keeps the plunger tight against the chain. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/07 at 06:54:30 I put a piece of wire thru the body of the tensioner preventing the pawl from swinging back far enough to allow the plunger to travel past the serrations of the ratchet area. Now, when the chain gets stretched to the tensioner limit, my tensioner will stop pushing on it. It wont come apart like the one in the picture |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by demin on 09/23/07 at 07:02:05 http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/09/23/bikepics-1033143-800.jpg.maybe this will help.Or to see up close go to www.bikepics.com/pictures/1033143/ |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/23/07 at 08:06:17 Scrapiron, when a spring fatigues, it breaks in two. In this case the plunger would never extend. I don't think this has ever been reported to have happened. Demin's failure is rare, a true definition of 'good grief', it broke but it didn't go any farther. And I believe when the plunger over extended it got trapped against the case and may have broken cause it was trapped at a severe angle and then broke due to fatigue. Most of the time the plunger gets so extended either by chain stretch, guide wear or what ever that it looses support from the housing and starts wobbling up and down until it falls apart. That's the tick tick noise people report. If you're lucky it will wobble until it hits the gear and just grind giving you clear indication something's wrong. Or even luckier and it gets trapped against the case and just makes an odd noise. ;D |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skrapiron on 09/23/07 at 13:29:45 My bad. I thought that the spring pulled the plunger back in and provided coutner tension from the cam chain. Now that I've seen the full assembly, I understand the role of the spring.... Disregard my ramblings... |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by skatnbnc on 09/23/07 at 14:04:34 islandwahine wrote:
Part of owning a motorcycle is that you get the experience of being a PART of it, literally, pun intended. This is not a car where you are in a cocoon, oblivious to the problems going on under the hood. On a bike, it is all hanging out there and you have to deal with it straight away. It's just the nature of this beast that you will have to pay attention and keep up with it or you will be out of a ride. Coupla points: - It wasn't so long ago that CARS were this way ~ either you knew how to fix it, you learned how to fix it, or you didn't go anywhere. - Even a bicycle requires maintenance. - Be VERY VERY glad that this forum exists because there is enough info here to be aware of upcoming issues, and FIX them before you end up with a dead bike. Don't let the constant litany of "my Savage is broken" fool you. Plenty of us are out having fun every day on our Savages - it's the ones in TROUBLE that hit the list screaming for help. Been there, done that! ;) |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/24/07 at 00:21:56 Thanks for the advice. I'm by nature a fixer upper, (in more ways then one) but I also like to reap the rewards for my work, and have some time off. I guess I'm basically waiting to see which one I'll have more of, work on the savage or have fun and relax on the savage. Right now it's a rather thin line. LOL Especially right now seeing the engine kept on shutting itself off for the first 15 minutes of my nightime ride. >:( |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/24/07 at 07:14:47 IW, check the ride in prime, if it behaves like it should... it's the petcork, which see. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/24/07 at 10:27:14 Now why didn't I think of that. If it's not the petcork, would riding in prime not flood the engine? How would I know if it is flooding by the way? Also It has just finished pouring rain when my bike kept stalling, and our rain is nothing like on the mainland. You literally get soaked in just a few seconds if it comes down that hard. |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/07 at 10:59:42 I got wet enough the bike shocked me at every spark when I put feet down at a light. Maybe you were losing spark? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by islandwahine on 09/24/07 at 11:19:45 hmmmmmmm.... Now you got me thinking in a whole different direction! If the jetset comes in this week, and I can actually work on the carb this weekend, then I might as well take the spark plug out and see what's going on in there. I know the spark plug tells a lot about what going on, I'm just not good about reading the different coats on top of the plug (like black, sooty, white , corroded etc.). What kind of shoes were you wearing when you kept getting shocked??? |
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Title: Re: LUCK..or what? Post by verslagen1 on 09/24/07 at 11:29:30 When I first got my bike, I ran it out of gas several times. 1st time, WTF ??? buddy came up and said reserve and on we went... to the gas station. 2nd time WTF... oh, reserve. 3rd time where's the reserve again? Since then I've continued to have issues with the petcork, so by practice I look there 1st. |
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