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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch slipping /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1189208401 Message started by Holodeck on 09/07/07 at 16:40:01 |
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Title: Clutch slipping Post by Holodeck on 09/07/07 at 16:40:01 I have 16.5 k on my 02. I change oil every 2k with a good grade of car oil except last time was synthetic. Last week I finally finished the mods for the carb, air fillter and muffler. Big increase in power. On a test run out on the road at 50 in 5th gear I rolled it on hard, the motor exploded with power and rpms.... then the clutch started slipping. I would like to think that the mighty thumper was just to much for the stock clutch, but since I have riden the bike like a maniac from the day I bought it I think maybe the clutch was just about ready to go anyway. My question is for those who have been into the 40 odd parts of this clutch - what should I expect doing the job ? I am not much of a wrencher, but I do like the satisfaction of being able to fix the bike myself. Thanks for any insight you can give me. Holodeck |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by demin on 09/07/07 at 16:58:34 First thing I would do is check into using synthetic.I read somewhere it is not good for some bikes because of the clutches.As dumb as this sounds it's too slippery. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by pgman on 09/07/07 at 17:14:46 Well, I've only done one clutch on a bike and it was not on an LS650 / Savage but it really wasn't that hard. Just remember to get new oil, a new filter, a new side engine cover gasket and new springs (it seems that springs don't always come with the clutch kit). Bike Bandit or Dennis Kirk seem to be good places to get this stuff. The only trouble I had was that the gasket moved when I was putting everything back together and I didn't notice. It started leaking oil on my driveway almost immediately. So, I had to take all the side cover bolts out again and fix the gasket (which fortunately was not damaged). You are supposed to check all the metal disks in the clutch for warpage. I did a quick check on mine but I'll admit I didn't go overboard with this. The job took me about three hours, but that included the second tear-down to fix the leak. If you are mechanically inclined and have decent hand tools you should be able to make sense of it. I don't know if there are any particular things on the LS 650 to watch out for - I would get a shop manual before I jumped into it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by T-Mack1 on 09/07/07 at 17:22:38 Suggest first try using MC oil instead of auto oil. It has additives for the clutch (sulfides?). If you want synthetic, Wallymart , Mobil 1 V-Twin $8.63 / qt. Not sure if the "V-Twin" label actually give you any more hi temp capibilites like it says. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Strafford_Guy on 09/07/07 at 17:53:16 I am not sure when the last time you changed the oil was, sounds like 500 miles if changed every 2k but I may try changing the oil out again to get rid of the syn prior to ripping into the clutch. Wouldn't hurt any and may save the a few bucks and some work. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by pgman on 09/07/07 at 17:57:09 I have been reading as much as I can find lately and it seems that many car oils have "energy saving friction modifiers" mixed in that can wreak havoc with wet clutches. That seems to be THE reason it is not wise to use car oil in motorcycles. I changed my oil two or three times - just to be sure it wasn't oil related. It's worth trying before you tear into it. Although, with the price of some motorcycle oils, I am not sure its cheaper. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by bentwheel on 09/07/07 at 18:15:56 If you determine the synthetic car oil is not causing the slippage and decide to tear into your clutch then do this next. Put large washers behind your clutch springs and put everything back together before buying any clutch parts. This will likely solve your slipping clutch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/07 at 18:33:23 You will note the casting the clutch springs sit in has milled areas for each spring. Close inspection will reveal they are different depths. The casting isn't the same thickness throughout & they mill each foting for the clutch springs so each spring is under the same load. I measured the thickness of each washer & ground them to fit inside the milled area, so as to not have uneven pressures across the clutchpack. Only used approximayely 1/8 thick washers & no more of that little OOOZE feeling when I am slamming thru gears. I am running Shell Rotella _T oil, It is just under $9.00 a gallon at Walmart. (Wrll, till oil hits $75.00 a barrel, then it'll go up I guess) I am betting it's the oil, tho. NOt too likely it's the clutch, IMO. EDIT* What I meant was, the clutch isnt shot at 16K miles. The mods didnt create a torque monster that cant be contained by the clutch , certainly not with a 50 MPH roll on. Thats the same clutch you had before the mods. IF it will slip at a 50 MPH roll on NOW, it SHoulda been slipping at 10 MPH in first accelerating away from a stop sign BEFore the mods. I believe the oil is the big deal here, & you will likely spot some slipping as you run thru the gears if you run it aggressively. When I did the carb, exhaust & air filter, I started feeling some slight slippage. When I did the cam chain, I did the washers. Problem solved. I rode it for several thousand miles after the mods before I did the clutch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by franch on 09/08/07 at 04:19:13 i got my savage with 16k on the clock and the clutch was already slipping. i replaced it and added washers at the same time. i didn't measure anything but you could see the old discs were worn compared to the new ones. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by slavy on 09/08/07 at 09:24:35 All the disel /fleet/ auto oils are excellent and are good bang for the buck. The so called "energy conserving oils" are so thin, that we don't use them any way. Usually they are 0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30, and may be some 10W-40. If You stick with 20W-50 or 15W-40, You will never get "slippery" oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/07 at 10:13:42 I've got the same issues, but I can roll it hard in any gear and get slippage. Make sure you got plenty of freeplay in the clutch lever. Turning will tighten the freeplay up some. The book says about 1/8", I've got a 1/4". Just got a set of barnett hd springs for the savage. Soon to be installed. ;D |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/08/07 at 11:22:45 I let the clutch lever adjuster be pretty sloppy. It disengages fine for stoplights & by letting it be sloppy, hauling it in is easier on the fingers than whenit is adjusted as far out as possible. All it takes when shifting is to ease the pressure on the clutch anyway. That accompanied with the throttle makes the shifting slick & easy. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Holodeck on 09/08/07 at 13:21:21 Verslagen, Thanks for the post, were did you get the springs ? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/07 at 15:22:36 scored them on fleabay. p/n mt10-4 fits several bikes |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Savage_Rob on 09/10/07 at 05:45:34 I agree with the suggestions above - namely: (1) While many auto oils may be fine for your bike, be careful about which ones you use. Many have additives that can cause slippage in wet clutch applications. I recommend using motorcycle-specific oil - especially when using synthetic. When you change the oil out, run some simple 10w40 witjout additives through the bike for a few days, drain it, and then go for your motorcycle-specific synthetic oil. (2) If you still have slippage after the oil change, changing the springs (or shimming them with washers) is easy. Lancer is an authorized dealer for Barnett and I got my clutch springs from him. Don't forget to get a new gasket for the right side cover. While you have the right side cover off, take a peek at your cam chain tensioner adjuster. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Holodeck on 09/10/07 at 07:25:41 Rob, Thats what I think I will do, and to everyone , thanks for the help. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Dr_Jim on 09/11/07 at 10:08:56 - |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by rokrover on 09/11/07 at 10:45:51 Yep - it's right there in your owner's manual - use oil with the MA certification without the friction modifiers that cause wet clutch slippage. Many web sites discuss this too.... for example http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~hasl/oildealers.htm |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Holodeck on 09/11/07 at 13:08:27 Well I'll be darned, just double checked on my oil brand and it's Pensoil, I always just sort of liked the name. Jim, you gave me the name of the oil you used, did you buy it buy the gal. ? Thanks |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by demin on 09/11/07 at 13:18:14 Penzoil does make motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Dr_Jim on 09/11/07 at 16:45:55 - |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by rigidchop on 09/12/07 at 18:30:09 i wouldn't think that it was the oil. on my 87 i can do a burn out w/o any slipping but 55 mph roll ons it slips, might just be cable adjustment. i could be wrong though. oh and i use mc oil valvoline 10/40. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Savage_Rob on 09/13/07 at 06:09:07 rokrover wrote:
Really? Yours says that? Mine says Suzuki recommends the use of SUZUKI PERFORMANCE 4 MOTOR OIL or an oil that is rated SF or SG under the API service classification. Under that, the Rotalla-T should be good, though they have a slightly higher ash content than you might want in the regular and the pure synthetic. Their triple-protection has lower ash and still contains no friction modifiers. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by rokrover on 09/13/07 at 07:21:31 The 2006 manual says use "JASO MA" certified oil - it doesn't mention anything about clutch slipping, but that is implied. I'll look up the page and exact wordage later if you like. MA designation didn't come into common use until the wet-clutch problem from "Energy Conserving" auto oils became known. There's more here: http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm So your Rotella-T should be fine as it doesn't have the "EC" designation meaning the friction-modifier package. Since auto oils have changed a lot the last decade your safest bet is to look for the JASO MA spec. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Savage_Rob on 09/13/07 at 07:33:47 I understand the differences in the API specs as I've been doing quite a bit of reading on the topic and I don't use Rotella-T, though I may consider it at some point. I currently use Mobil-1 V-Twin synthetic. I mentioned it because someone else had posted that they use it. I was mainly curious that it appeared the LS650 manual's recommendations had been modified. Thanks for confirming that. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by skrapiron on 09/13/07 at 08:03:24 My first oil change was using Suzuki's 10w40 dino oil. It lasted 500 miles before the valves began their tapa tapa tapa at idle. My second oil change was with Suzuki's 10w40 synthetic blend oil. Again, 500 miles and tapa tapa tapa. Third oil change was Mobil 1 full sythetic 10w40 motorcycle oil. Even after 3000 miles, no valve noise UNLESS it was terribly hot or I had been idling for an extended period of time. My last oil change I went up to Mobil 1 full synthetic 20w50 (v-twin). I have 800 miles on since then and even when hot, the valves are near silent. I got the V-twin 20w50 at WallyWorld for $7.45 a quart. It was nearly a buck a quart cheaper there than anywhere else, so I got 4... |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Savage_Rob on 09/13/07 at 08:14:08 skrapiron wrote:
Same stuff I use and that's where I get it too. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by T-Mack1 on 09/13/07 at 08:33:14 same stuff I used this last time. Our Wallymart tag had $8.63 but shelf was empty, got some from Cycle-Gear for $10 & some change. http://www.cyclegear.com/ I noticed the oil pressure (on the guage) is a little less scary when the bike is hot and at idle. 5 psig 'ish vs the 2-3 psig with Castrol 10w-40 MC oil (hot & at idle). Now.....it's a little scary when the bike is cold. The guage goes to 30 psig and pessure is right there at start up......I have to wait a good 5 mintues before pulling out for the morning commute (today was as my limit 50 deg's). Just a little afraid of popping the guage. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by rokrover on 09/13/07 at 11:44:51 Here’s the official language from the June 2005 edition of the LS650K6 (2006 model) Owner’s Manual, p2-3 = = = = = = = = = = Use SF/SG or SH/SJ in API classification with MA in JASO (Japanese Automobile Standards Association). = = = = = = = = = = If you dig deeper in the Factory Service Manuals you find: Models 650G, H, J, S = Years 86, 87, 88, 95 oil 10W/40 API SE or SF Model 650T = Year 96 - oil 10W/40 SE, SF or SG Models 650V, W, X, Y = Years 97, 98, 99, 00 - oil 10W/40 SF or SG Models 650V, W, X, Y = Years 97, 98, 99, 00 - oil 10W/40 SF or SG Models 650K1, K2, K3, K4, K5 = Years 01, 02, 03, 04, 05 - oil 10W/40 SF or SG Model 650K6 = Year 06 - oil 10W/40 SF/SG or SH/SJ with MA What’s interesting is the MA specification is required for the SH/SJ oils as, if I remember correctly, the “Energy Conserving” additives only started being used for the API SJ classification (and later). That’s why you don’t see it in the manuals for ’04 and earlier models, as perhaps JASO hadn’t yet recognized the API SJ potential problem meeting the MA wet-clutch requirement. SJ auto oils were introduced in 1996 so it took 10 years for Suzuki to update their recommendation. No wonder there’s some confusion. Problem is, most auto gasoline-engine oils have the energy conserving friction modifier these days, so it’s hard finding the older SF/SG (max) oils. Also, these older oils had more anti-wear additives (zinc phosphates or similar) that are now cut back in the latest formulations due to issues with catalytic converters. In fact, BMW do not approve SJ oils in their bikes: http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/reviews/sj_oil/index.html Same old story - newer is not necessarily better. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by verslagen1 on 09/19/07 at 08:54:41 I just put the new springs in and no more slippage. The grip is a little stiffer, but I only really notice at long lights. The springs themselves were a little taller and the wire diameter thinner. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping Post by Savage_Greg on 09/19/07 at 09:16:03 Check out my tips and tricks for the clutch in the Tech section. I show a method for holding some of those "40 odd parts" together or a way to install them easier. |
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