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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Counting cam chain needs (new improved) /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1188989973 Message started by Oldfeller2 on 09/05/07 at 03:59:33 |
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Title: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/05/07 at 03:59:33 Lancer and I are considering an arrangement with Morse to have them build a better cam chain for us. The chain would be an "improvement on initial pin wear characteristics" which is all we need as we never wear the pins on a chain more than about a thousandth before we just plain run out of adjustment range. http://www.hunt101.com/img/514213.JPG Before we can pursue it, we need a straw count of how many chains would be involved in the special run and if it can be done at all at that volume. Post below if you are interested in getting an improved chain. We can't get any price unless we know about how many chains -- Morse will divide up their set up costs among the chains they do during the special run. Just post below if you are interested in a better chain. A stock chain costs $90 with shipping, so "rough plan" that this one will cost $110-$120. Post your interest below so we can count the chains. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by skrapiron on 09/05/07 at 04:55:19 Count me in. And one of the chain tensioners too. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Dr_Jim on 09/05/07 at 05:46:51 - |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by LANCER on 09/05/07 at 06:16:40 Dealing with the cam chain and tensioner is one of those "have to do" things, it's not a matter of if but when. So if you are not having to deal with it now then you certainly need to plan ahead for when you will have to address the issue...hopefully before the tensioner gives out. Step up and take a number and maybe, with a little favor from God, we could even save a buck. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Kropatchek on 09/05/07 at 06:27:10 Count me in for 2. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by skatnbnc on 09/05/07 at 08:40:32 I'm in, along with all the other cam-chain parts too (adjuster, tensioner). |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/07 at 09:04:26 I think I'll let you folks run with that. I think the cryogenic treatment is cheaper & will offer grand longevity. The only way to know which is the better aproach is for folks to go dofferent directions & see.My plan is to replace the guides & extend the spring loaded tensioner so it will be compressed into the sleeve instead of poking out so far with the new chain. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by GaryF on 09/05/07 at 09:33:26 Oldfeller- I would be interested in purchasing 1 of the improved cam chains for the $110 to 120 range; hopefully enough people can sign on to make it available for this reasonable cost considering the potential improvement. GaryF |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Savage_Rob on 09/05/07 at 11:17:09 I've been considering the cryo treatment but would be buying a new stock chain for that anyway, when the time comes. That said, I don't think it would be much cheaper than this chain, if it's cheaper at all. I'm not real sure about the graph shown though. I can't read it all that well due to its resolution, but it looks like they are saying the performance is improved under ugly oil conditions. How much difference is there when pure synthetic is used and changed more often than recommended? |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by islandwahine on 09/05/07 at 11:34:29 This may sound stupid, but I thought we had a belt? |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by allan on 09/05/07 at 12:00:57 2 please if shipping to uk is okay allan |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by chuck on 09/05/07 at 14:51:51 Count me in. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Ed_L. on 09/05/07 at 17:33:40 Count me in for one chain, going to need it one day so might as well get a good one. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by KenGLong on 09/05/07 at 18:07:01 I'm afraid I'm going to pass on this opportunity for a "better" cam chain. Thanks anyway. Ken |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by YonuhAdisi on 09/05/07 at 18:34:59 Wish I could afford it since I am getting a new one anyway, unfortunately I can't. Maybe next time. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/07 at 20:26:20 The cryogenic stuff is pretty danged cheap. I think the freight would be more than the service/ |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Moofed on 09/05/07 at 21:05:10 As others have said, it will have to be done eventually anyway. Put me down for one. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Hell, Billy on 09/05/07 at 22:14:49 You guys are making me nervous......just how long does the average cam chain last til you have to take action? {sure that musta been asked before, but.....sorry},we used to have camchain probs on the Yam 650`s, but they could hold til 50,000 miles if the guides didn`t get chewed. They had an external adjustment that was a routine tweak during tune up..but then most of us changed oil ever 500 miles or so.... Thanks, B |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/07 at 04:30:16 I did mine at 14,000 miles. The tensioner was at 18mm( max by the book), but the chain itself was only about 1/2 worn( as the digital callipers measured). Others have ridden further, some have ridden fewer miles & had it cause probs, ( I think) Anyone say for sure? Heres my plan, weak as it may be. Next chain gets new guides & cryo. Extend the tensioner to get better use of its extension. Someone mentioned shimming the front guide, which would advance the cam a bit & counter the cam retading from chain stretch. Might do that. I may rerun a cam chain, since the OEM was only 1/2 worn. That would save $50.00, minus the gasket & hassle, which may not be cost effective, dunno, Thoughts anyone? I WILL, as I did on the last one, soak the camchain in oil for a day or 2, to make sure the pins get a wet start & dont have a few seconds of unlubricated, tension & stress applied, to start off with wear marks in the pins & plates. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by LANCER on 09/06/07 at 06:02:57 Quote:
That is a very practical step in the process and could make a difference. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by LANCER on 09/06/07 at 06:41:12 Oldfeller2 wrote:
Just a note regarding the proposed chain purchase...this will be on a strictly cost basis, no profit of any kind will be taken by anyone in this process. We intend to take about a week to gather commitments from the members of this site and then request a cost estimate based on the number. That will be posted and if acceptable to everyone then the order process will be initiated. At that point, all payments for the chains will be collected so that when the call comes that the order is ready we will be able to make the payment immediately. A few dollars will be added to the chain cost in order to cover shipping to each person. I would estimate that $7 would probably cover USPS Priority & insurance within the US. (An exact shp cost will be posted after weighing a box with chain pkg) If you are outside the US then the cost will be more of course, and that will be determined on an individual basis depending on where you live. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by vroom1776 on 09/06/07 at 13:34:43 This is going to be a one time thing, huh? V PS: Hi everyone! |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/06/07 at 14:46:36 Yep, and we will be lucky to talk Morse into doing it the one (1) first time and we will certainly need maximum volume on that single order to spread the set up costs out as much as possible to keep the price as reasonable as possible. Justin, talk to your cryo contact and lets see if we can get a bulk discount price on cryo treating the whole batch of super chains at one lump if it is really that cheap to cryo them -- not much point in not maximizing things when we do them -- this one run will be the best we can technically get. This would be the best possible construction chain with whatever cryo can actually do to help us added on top of it. Justin, will you do that for us please? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/06/07 at 14:51:28 If you post on other Savage boards please mention this effort to them as the extra volume will help lower the price for everybody and I don't think they would want to miss the opportunity this build will provide. If we get enough volume we may actually be able to get the things done for cheaper than the $85 it costs from a stealership to buy a same old same old chain. No promises, but the possibility exists and volume does work wonders on priciing. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Brewbrother on 09/06/07 at 15:40:38 Im in, please drop me an IM when you need payment. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/07 at 19:15:00 Yea, I'll see what I can do. The scientist in me wants to do it 3 ways. Non-treated, not soaked, OEM, nothing special is already well documented. I want to see it done different ways to compare results, BUt, the special chain may only pass this way once. I can't help but wonder what difference the oil bath made. I would like to compare that aproach to Oil bath AND cryo & compare that to the special chain with & w/o cryo. But, if it's a one time deal on the chain, better just unload on it & do all of it. I really dont have $100.00 to drop just now, so i will wait & just do OEM & oil soak & cryo. I am, Googling Cryogenic treatment cam chain motorcycle. any can join in the fun.. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/07 at 19:51:28 Okay, had to go back & shorten message, lost quite a bit. Sorry it is disjointed, will try to provide enough info for everyone to understand what the deal is. Items not specifically listed below will be charged by the pound: By The Pound Price List We can accommodate large volumes of items for production/manufacturing industries at bulk rates. Please call for special pricing. Please read our Engine and Transmission Preparation guidelines prior to sending parts. Drive Train or Cam Timming Chain $0.25 per inch of chain length Sprockets $1.50 per diameter inch Head $30.00 $45.00 $100.00 $115.00 $125.00 $135.00 Jugs $30.00 $30.00 $30.00 Engine Block $75.00 $125.00 $250.00 $300.00 $375.00 $400.00 Complete Engine $125.00 $250.00 $425.00 $525.00 $625.00 $825.00 Complete Transmission $55.00 $65.00 $135.00 $225.00 $295.00 $305.00 Complete Engine w/ Tranny and Clutch $175.00 $325.00 $550.00 $700.00 $850.00 $1,050.00 R/C Electrical $10.00 ea. R/C Model Engines >1cc: $25.00 <1cc: Call for price ®2001- 2004 NW Cryogenics tel 661-944-3468 fax 661-944-3194 Email FreezeIt@nwcryo.com 35820 77th St East, Littlerock, California 93543 |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/07 at 19:53:37 http://www.cryoplus.com/motorsports.html This is a different place, I dont see cam chain prices. Doesnt mean they cant or wont or that it isnt well priced, just gotta do the homework. 2429 North Millborne Rd / Wooster, OH 44691 / phone: 330-683-3375 / fax: 330-683-2653 |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/07 at 19:58:46 nce 1966. Ed Busch is our chairman emeritus. Currently, 300 Below processes in excess of a million pounds of steel and components per year. 300 Below is responsible for establishing 153 operations which extend into 36 countries, all using 300 Below Cryo-processors. Even the research upon which the industry was founded, performed by Dr. Randall Barron of Louisiana Tech University, was funded by 300 Below. Tooling 300 Below, Inc. has the ability to cryogenically process tooling of all different shapes and sizes. More...Firearms (Cryo-Barrel) 300 Below frequently sponsors shooting events around the world, such as this shoot in Argentina. More...Cryo Rotor Brake Rotors 300 Below's Cryo Rotor treatment helps large fleets cut costs! Emergency vehicles, delivery trucks and taxis benefit the most. More...Motorsports 300 Below sponsored Justin Katz to race in the Midwest. More...Sporting Goods 300 Below has processed sporting goods for many manufacturers, including Jack Nicklaus' golf clubs shown here. More...Musical Instruments 300 Below cryogenically treats musical instruments to make them sound more crisp and smooth. They are also easier to clean. More...01 Musical Instruments02 Tooling03 Firearms (Cryo-Barrel)04 Cryo Rotor Brake Rotors05 Motorsports06 Sporting Goods What We Do 300 Below, Inc. is involved in the process of Deep Cryogenic Tempering and has developed an advanced, computer controlled processing system for reliably treating materials. As our name implies, we treat engine components and parts at minus 300 degrees Fahrenheit to improve their properties. Computer technology allows us to regulate temperatures to 1/10th of a degree... 300 Below, Inc. 2999 E. Parkway Dr. Decatur, IL 62526 sales@300below.com TOLL FREE (800) 550-2796 PHONE (217) 423-3070 FAX (217) 423-3075 |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by mavinwy on 09/07/07 at 08:37:25 The bike the wife picked up last month will likely have more than 6K miles on it by the end of this riding season. I understand that the chains are supposed to be good for more than that, but I also see folks having problems with them early too..... So I'd be interested in getting one if it will make the bike more reliable in the long run and changing it out over the winter (and withe buying or making a better cam tensioner) Mav |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by verslagen1 on 09/07/07 at 09:33:07 justin_o_guy2 wrote:
Roughly 36" of chain, So about $9 And this is a fun day trip for me up thru Angeles forest Hwy. ;D And I already have a stock chain in pocket. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/07 at 11:02:08 Wayulll, arenCHEW spayshull?? ;D Lucky Dawg! |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Savage_Rob on 09/07/07 at 11:38:02 Okay guys, count me in for this chain, as it may well be a one-time deal. I may still get it cryo treated before using it. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by toddlamp8 on 09/07/07 at 13:25:30 I'm in. I'll need one sooner or later. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/08/07 at 04:30:16 Counting Lancer and I as one chain each, the count stands at 15 custom cam chains. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Max_Morley on 09/08/07 at 10:32:16 Max is in for a couple |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/08/07 at 11:18:44 Now, how much $$ we talking here? When ya need it? Sorry if I am frustrating, the memory just isnt good. I really dont want to reread the whole thing. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/08/07 at 13:26:12 We will ask Morse for a price based upon 20 chains since that is where we are (rounded up a couple). They will tell is if they will build that few or not, and what the price would be if they are willing to do it for only 20 chains. Within a week I will likely be able to get an answer. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by steely on 09/08/07 at 18:49:36 I just did mine last month, but I will need one again in a few years, and I would like to have it on hand. Put me down for one. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/13/07 at 15:18:10 Based on 20 chains the price of the improved Morse chain will be $49.35 free on board here in the USA. Shipped to your door in a $4.60 Prepaid US Postal Service mailer brings the theoretical total to $53.95. If you wanted your chain 300 BELOW treated (shipping both ways and chill service) add $15. My thought is that it is equally cheap for you to send it to them personally as the only way I could get it any cheaper is to treat ALL the chains at one lick. That would require some serious agreement from everybody up front. Biggest fly in the ointment is the lead time. 3 months minimum -- over half of which is over the water shipping time from Japan. Second fly is that all of the actual Morse production and shipping costs from Japan must be paid 100% in advance to start the order. Last fly is export duty and export taxes -- right now they are estimated and could be different when we actually go and do the deed. Note, this would only become known after we had paid and waited, I'd get an e-mail saying the estimate was off by XX dollars and to send more money. Good news is that the improved chain as discussed above even with the 300 BELOW treatment costs LESS than a stock chain bought from Bike Bandit or Ron Eyers. (somebody post the actual buy me cost for the Suzuki stock chain that wears out too quick ....) Can we do it? Yes, it will just take patience. Will it be better? Yes, especially if we can all agree on the 300 BELOW treatment is to be done on all the chains in bulk. Will it be cheaper? Actually, yes --- even with improved nitrided pins and the 300 BELOW treatment. Better two ways and cheaper --- What do you think? Speak up on the 300 BELOW thing those of you who are on deck for the deal. We need to hash this point out before figuring a final cost and beginning to collect checks. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/07 at 15:34:26 If I recall correctly, I paid $68 not including shipping in Nov. '06. But It's higher now $86. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Max_Morley on 09/13/07 at 15:35:28 Max says he is still in for 2 with the treatment. Max |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/13/07 at 15:47:43 With that being the cost, I am in for 1, & cryo, if possible, if not, I will handle the cryo myself. OHH, IF what I think I saw is correct, I think I see one reason for a shorter cam chain life in more recent years. Did someone say in 03 or so they changed the spring in the tensioner for a stiffer one? If so, that would possibly cause it to "Grab a tooth" on the tensioner "Ratchet" & pawl & then the engine jug "growth" at temperature stretches the chain, allowing the tensioner to reach 18mm sooner. I will look at a softer spring, for mine. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Moofed on 09/13/07 at 16:57:42 Great news! I see no reason to skip the cryo treatment, especially if the final cost is still equal or less than a regular chain. A deal like that seems ripe for some ebay action... too bad I don't have the capital for it. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by LANCER on 09/13/07 at 17:23:41 I vote for the whole banana |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by steely on 09/13/07 at 18:29:58 I'm in for one with everything! |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Holodeck on 09/13/07 at 21:16:43 ME too, with the works. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by verslagen1 on 09/14/07 at 09:00:43 Can they put a special mark on the chain? Maybe 'SS' or anything to denote it's a special chain? |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by KenGLong on 09/14/07 at 09:53:01 justin_o_guy2 wrote:
There is an issue of spring travel. If it has a long travel from fully compressed to fully open over the service life of the adjuster, it will have to start out with a lot of tension. If you start out with too little tension, it will reach the max extended length before the end of the service life and it won't automatically adjust the chain slack any more. Hmm. Maybe that's not a bad thing <g>. Ken |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Oldfeller2 on 09/14/07 at 11:11:11 The chains will be marked M as that is the only marking that goes on the outside of a Morse chain. Asking them to custom stamp side links is kinda expensive sounding to me. ========================= Asked and got Morse's take on cryo treating nitrided pin chains -- they would already do it if it offered any advantage on a nitrided pin chain. It does not have any real benefit they can determine by endurance testing or by microanalysis. Cryo works by partially converting retained austinite into martinsite, thus making the steel more consistent and increasing its physical properties. It also stress relieves a part to a degree that cannot be done otherwise. This is good if you have cracking issues or stress failure issues. Nitriding affects the first .002" of the pin's depth. There are 3 zones created. White zone which is extremely hard but porous (collects a good oil film and holds it) the Primary Conversion Zone which is thin (less than a quarter thousandth of an inch) in which all material is converted to nitrides and there is no austinite to convert to martinsite. Then there comes a .0016" thick transformation zone in which you taper from 100% nitrides to 100% base material. This last zone would only be marginally affected by cryo as austinite has already been partially converted into nitrides and it isn't there to be converted to martinsite. Nitrides are already "as hard as it gets". Our chains only wear into the first .001" of the pin's depth before we run out of adjustment travel. We would never get "deep enough" to see any transformation benefit from cryo. Lastly, cryo works best on parts that like to break in use where the full through body benefits of cryo can play to maximum advantage. Our chains don't break, they wear out within the first .001" of pin wear depth. Our links don't stress crack. The chains we have now literally are only wearing halfway through their total life span before we have to throw them away because we run out of adjustment. We never get deep enough for the cryo benefits to play out for us. The Primary Conversion nitride layer on the pins and the highest nitride bearing part of the Transformation Zone is all the wear depth we will ever see. I don't think cryo is all that worthwhile for the cost it will add. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/14/07 at 11:39:24 Cryo seems to be a great idea, for some parts, the cam chain just doesn't seem to be one of them, at least not the Morse chain. maybe the OEM chain isnt nitrided & may possibly benefit from the treatment, but I am sure not ready to spend more than necessary. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Kropatchek on 09/15/07 at 09:53:00 I'll take 2 ( two) with the treatment. ;D |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by allan on 09/15/07 at 12:33:28 2 with or without go with the majority allan. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by LANCER on 09/15/07 at 13:07:18 If the material condition of the chain components is in fact more than adequate as it comes from Morse and the cold treatmetn thing will not benefit then why should we spend the time and money ? If something will help then I am all for it, but if not then I see no reason to waste time and money. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by verslagen1 on 09/15/07 at 13:20:30 I think what Morse is saying is with their nitriding treatment, cryo isn't needed. If you didn't do the nitride, then cryo would be a benefit. On the plus side for cryo, the entire chain gets it. Whereas the nitriding is only done to the pins. |
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Title: Re: Counting cam chain needs (new improved) Post by Windrider on 09/15/07 at 20:03:14 I'm in for a chain and tensioner. |
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