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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> What does 1.5 turn out mean? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1188439944 Message started by islandwahine on 08/29/07 at 19:12:24 |
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Title: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 08/29/07 at 19:12:24 I'm reading lancers carb instructions, but have no idea what he means with 1.5 turns out. Does that mean you turn the screw 540 degrees (whole turn and half turn) to the left ? Or to the right. How can you make sure you turn the screw that far around? Mark one of the knobs on the screw with paint? Or does he mean 1.5 out 1.5 knobs around? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by LANCER on 08/29/07 at 19:25:38 If you turn the adjusting screw clockwise (CW)until it is fully seated and closed, then you have reached the starting point. (This is done gently in order to avoid damaging the screw) At this starting point you then begin turning the adjusting screw counterclockwise (CCW) and count the turns going out. In the example you referenced, 1.5 turns out, which means from the full down or closed position, the adjusting screw has been turned CCW 1.5 turns. This is a way to keep track of the position of the adjusting screw, and when talking to someone else about tuning we can both be sure we are on the same page adjustment wise. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 08/29/07 at 19:31:55 Holy moly!! I only just now realized that the instructions are talking about TWO screws! Pilot and Idle. Where the heehaw is the pilot screw? I found this on the tech site: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- We can also fatten up the low end of your bike's carburetor by turning out the low-speed mixture screw. To gain access to this screw, you'll need to drill out the brass plug pressed in over it and yank it out with a sheet-metal screw attached to a slide hammer. You'll find that plug up high on the right side of the carb about where the mouth enters the carburetor. Usually Suzuki applies a splash of white paint over the brass plug so that it's immediately noticeable. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not see a brass spot nor a spot of paint. Is there a picture with the location of the screw available? What does he mean with, "Where the mouth enters the carb"? My manual does not even mention a pilot screw! |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by grandpa on 08/30/07 at 02:02:49 Check the tech section for the jet mods and Lancer's tuning guide. One of them has great pictures of where you need to drill. Go slow so you just go thru the cap and not go into the screw below it. Then use a punch or nail to pry the cap off. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by Savage_Greg on 08/30/07 at 08:04:42 Also, when you remove the plug and "turn the screw in"; do it gently. You just want to seat the tip on the air screw, and then turn it out 1 1/2 turns. Don't want to damage the air screw or the seat. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 08/30/07 at 11:30:47 grandpa wrote:
Had a hard time finding it, but is this the picture you were talking about? http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/CarbRightweb.jpg Is it the idle mixture w/o plug that is the pilot screw? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by T-Mack1 on 08/30/07 at 11:44:34 Yes, Pilot screw, low speed mixture, idle mixture, air screw, and some other names that I can't remember at this time. People call it the pilot screw because it is adjusting the gas flow that is also going thru the pilot jet. And.....somewhere here (maybe in tech section) it says that if you can make the bike run rough adjusting the screw in both directions (too lean & too rich) than the pilot jet is sized correctly. IF sized correctly, most people say run bike dead center between the two points. But, depending on how you ride, a slightly lean or slight rich low speed may be desireable. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 08/30/07 at 23:02:28 T-Mack1 wrote:
What do you mean with, "if you can make the bike run rough "? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by T-Mack1 on 08/31/07 at 09:29:59 Ooooohhhh .... if you get chance to adjust the screw you'll fine out what running rough means. Hard to describe,.....there's a smooth idle (as smooth as a thumper can get!) and them there's rougher idle. If you haven't play with idles on engines it's hard to tell you. You could actually have a rough idle now and if you never heard a smooth idle you would never know. But it would be a WOW moment when you did..... |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 08/31/07 at 11:34:27 Now, what is better for the engine's "health"? A smoother one right? I'm guessing a smoother setting will make the bike vibrate less, is that correct? If that's the case I'm all for a smoother setting, my muscles are all jittery when I hop of the bike after an hour's ride. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by T-Mack1 on 08/31/07 at 11:54:17 Yes, smoother is better. Is your brass plug out so you can adjust the screw? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 08/31/07 at 22:07:31 T-Mack1 wrote:
Yes it is! I'll give it a try tomorrow, just got off work and I'm beat! Also got the parts in to change the oil in front fork. I'll be doing that as well! |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 16:04:45 Well, I guess my ears are not attuned to engine sounds. I've turned the pilot screw as far in as possible (it took like 5 turns), then did 1.5 turns out, marked it, started bike and slowly turned it bit by bit and waited to hear the engine turn rough. truthfully, I can't hear a difference. it doesn't get smooth or rough, it stays the same. Is there like a a spring underneath the screw on the inside? it feels like it when I turn the screw. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by Strafford_Guy on 09/03/07 at 16:27:29 islandwahine Did you increase the idle speed, (Step 2) prior to making the pilot adjustment? Sounds like if it makes no difference either way you may have to go up to the next pilot jet size..... (Wait for someone more knowledgeable then I to confirm, I may be incorrect) Below is a Quote from The Tech Section http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1157720585 Lancer's Straight & Simple Carb Tuning -start with the pilot adjusting screw at 1.5 turns out as a reference point, and count as you turn in and out so you always know where you are during the process. Everything is done and referenced in the "# of turns out". -turn idle up a little so you have a smooth fast idle {Strafford's note - : the above refers to thumbscrew on the left side of the carb}. -turn pilot adjusting screw "in" until engine begins to slow downand note the # of turns out -turn pilot adjusting screw "out" until engine begins to slow (it will speed up initially then go down) and note the # of turns out -then set the pilot adjusting screw in the "Happy middle" of those two positions -after the pilot circuit is happy, turn the idle adjusting screw back down for the idle you desire. *for ex...if the turn in setting was at 1 turn out, and the turn out settig was 3 turns out, then the happy middle is 2 turns out. **Turn slowly as you do this, no more than 1/8 or 1/4 turn at a time...then pause and wait 5 seconds or so in order to give the engine time to adjust, then turn again if necessary. If you have a tach, then you can set the pilot adjusting screw by just tuning for max rpm, then set idle speed. ***If after you have finished this process, the pilot adjusting screw is 2.5 -3 turns out, then you definitely need the next larger pilot jet. For myself, if I go over 2 turns out then I go up to the next size pilot jet. When the pilot is properly adjusted, and assuming there are no exhaust leaks in the system, you will not have any backfiring. It is normal to have some mild crackling and popping on brisk-hard deceleration, but there will not be any backfiring. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 16:30:03 I was using lancer's guide while doing this, but I'll try it again, I just couldn't hear much of a difference in anything, and engine was not slowing down either. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 17:35:11 Just did it again. Turned the pilot screw all the way in, and then 1.5 out as a starter point. Set the idle on high. Then I slowly turned the pilot screw 1/4 at a time, and waited 10 seconds between. I did this till I could turn no more, stopped at 5 total turns (including the 1.5 starter turn) No difference at all, no slowing no speeding. Then I decided to see what going in all the way would do. Did it slow, and 1/2 turn at a time till I hit 1.5 where I started. Then I continued in till I could turn no more (1.5 turns total). The only thing I noticed that when I was all the way turn in, was a slight clanking sound. So.... ye think my screw is messed up? I'll let the engine cool down a bit, and take the float bowl of to see what I can see. Maybe needle is clogged. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by demin on 09/03/07 at 17:41:47 Turn the screw all the way in until it LIGHTLY seats(you start feeling tension on it)unscrew 1.5 turns.What is wrong that you are trying to adjust it? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 17:47:59 Done all that! What's wrong is that my bike idles fine, but won't run without having the choke pulled out. It stutters when I drive without the choke pulled out. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by demin on 09/03/07 at 17:48:05 If you do pull the float bowl off.remove the float and needle and seat,clean it.right in front of that is the pilot jet(it's recessed up in )unscrew it out and clean it. Ok,did you recently change muffler or did it just start running bad like that or what? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 17:49:39 I don't have carb cleaner, can I use brake cleaner? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by demin on 09/03/07 at 17:50:30 Yep |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 17:53:25 demin wrote:
bought it like that, the previous owner said it always ran cold. Like it's freezing here in Hawaii! |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by demin on 09/03/07 at 17:58:31 I was looking at the pic of your bike in the garage.Ican't tell is it the stock muffler or is it a "louder" one.The reason I askit looks like the muffler has been changed.If thats the case you may have to rejet it. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by demin on 09/03/07 at 18:26:45 Is it loud ,or louder than a stock bike?If you can put a pic of it on so I can see it.It sounds like it needs jetted though.Putting choke on makes it run richer.If it is a different muffler it will let more exhaust out.The theory behind this is more air in more air out.So if you raise the out you must raise the in.confused yet? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 18:35:44 You lost me about a mile ago! I'll take a pic, back in a sec. PS. Is the gas going to start pouring out if I remove the float bowl??? |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by LANCER on 09/03/07 at 19:19:14 Howdy Wahine, AloooooooooooooooooHA! With the symptoms you have described to this point, especially the LACK of response when you have turned the pilot air adjusting screw from up to 5 turns out to all the way back in to virtual closed, and yet there is no change that you can hear or see, then there is only one thing left to do at this point..........take the little thing apart, every piece, and clean every passageway inside the carb body, making sure every part (especially the jets and needle) are in good condition. If there is any doubt about any part then replace it. Get new gaskets and make sure the rubber diaphram is still pliable and there are no holes,cracks or splits in it. Review the manual and carb diagrams to make sure that you have all the little parts ... something could be missing that is causing this "no response" situation. Most of the time, with a carb that is not responding, like yours is doing, the problem is clogged passageways. Usually, taking the carb apart and cleaning it will solve the problem. The process is not a difficult one, even if you have never done it before. Take your time, lay out the parts in the order they came out, clean everything and then put it back together. Then do the tuning process again and this time it should respond properly. With a little practice, a carb can be dissasembled, cleaned, and put back together in less than an hour. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by Max_Morley on 09/03/07 at 20:21:27 You did the fork seals, the carb is a piece of cake. Max |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 21:46:38 Thanks Max! especially for your help with the fork seal change. I put a pic in the "done but never again post". I took a pic of the muffler, I think it's an original muffler: http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C09%5C03%5Cbikepics-1012625-full.jpg So I don't think that's the problem. I wasn't in the mood today to empty the tank, take the seat and risers off, then the tank, and then the carb. So what I did was take the float bowl off just to take a peak inside. I did take the main jet out, but it looks nice and clean. then i looked at the pilot jet (with a little mirror looking up) and saw that the thread on it (flathead slot) looked pretty shredded. I tried to loosen it but couldn't so I left it as is. I did stick a tiny wire up in there to see if it was clogged, and sprayed some cleaner in there. Next thing I did is bent the floats down just a tad (the manual said that if they float higher (and pushing the pin in I guess) that it runs richer. So I thought might as well try it. The bottom of the float has a bunch of mud looking gunk in it though, so I cleaned it out. I also cleaned the small little hole in that copper pin think that hung down. After I reassemble it I put the petcork on PRI and opened the drain valve in case some more gunk might come out. I do think I need to replace a few parts, there were slivers of metal coming out. The bike started right back up and then died right away. After a couple of starts it kept running however. I messed a little with the pilot screw again and I did notice just a tad of difference this time. But now what happened is that the screw can only turn 2 turns to the right or two turns to the left to be totally stuck ??? I took it for a spin and it actually didn't die without the choke out, wonder over wonder. It did die at an intersection, I think I had the idle too low. I messed around a little more and took it for a second spin, and I think it runs better!! I'll find out tomorrow when I need to go for a longer drive to my class. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 21:49:51 LANCER wrote:
In my case it would be like 6-8 hours!! I'll do it on a weekend when I have no other pressing matters :) |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by LANCER on 09/03/07 at 22:49:58 You can do it, just take your time and keep things in order. Be prepared by having a fresh can of carb cleaner and some tiny brushes (I like some of the ones my wife uses for makeup), pipe cleaners, some very thin wire, q-tips and such for getting into the tiny passageways. Be careful to not damage the parts ... it's not like they are so fragile that they will fall apart, just take care not to force anything too hard or gouge with a screwdriver, etc. You mentioned the pilot jet looked like it was torn up some. They can be a bit of a headache sometimes if they have not been out for a long time and/or someone installed it with toooooo much of a heavy handed screwdriver. So be sure the screwdriver you use fits very well and be FIRM with your removal technique. I have had to use an "easy-out" a couple of times on a pilot jet ... now that was fun to be sure. Keep us posted of your progress, and remember that we are all photo freaks, so take some pic's for us poor souls if you think of it. A good clear closeup pic of parts will be helpful if you need advice regarding parts that may have questionable damage or such. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/03/07 at 23:10:37 Will do, have a good digital camera! |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by skrapiron on 09/04/07 at 11:58:06 I strongly second the recommendation to replace your pilot jet. The brass used in their manufacture is pretty soft and its really easy to booger them up, especially if you're not paying attention or using the wrong sized screwdriver. That said, I went up a 55 pilot (up from the stock 52.5) and also did the half-white spacer mod. Like yours, my bike had to ridden with the choke partially engaged, especially when cold. That went away after I did the spacer mod then I completely eliminated the low-throttle surging as well as most of the backfiring by swapping to a larger pilot jet. Compared to the other things you've already done, changing the carb jetting will be a piece of cake! |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by islandwahine on 09/04/07 at 12:03:55 I'd like to get ahead of the game and maybe order some parts ahead of time. Are there any parts you can think of that are usual to replace? I'll get the 55 pilot, but ye think a new diaphragm would be good? I figure I can always return items if not needed, that way my bike won't be out of commission for too long. |
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Title: Re: What does 1.5 turn out mean? Post by LANCER on 09/04/07 at 17:13:34 Hopefully you will not need a new diaphram because that thing costs about as much as a brand new performance carb. Fortunately, it is usually still usable. When I have more time I will suggest some parts you might want to get but right now my time is short. |
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