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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Fatter front tire
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Message started by mpescatori on 08/08/07 at 04:40:40

Title: Fatter front tire
Post by mpescatori on 08/08/07 at 04:40:40

I'm quite happy with the overall handling of my Savage, except for one thing: maybe because of the thin front tire, maybe becaise of the front fork so raked (stock rake) the bike seems to understeer a bit on fast corners.

I am thinking of fitting a fatter front tire, perhaps with an 18" wheel.
Given the standard size is 100/90x19, I assume a 3.50x18 should be OK?
This would help as I would not need to redo any front fork geometry.
Else, if I had to fit a new front fork as well, I'd go for a double disc brake fork&tire...
...or, a really huge drum brake ! ;D

Opinions, anybody?

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Five_Points on 08/08/07 at 05:40:12

I think a fatter front tire will make you under steer even more. I think skinny front tires give you a more responsive steering, and fatter front tires give you a more stable ride.

One thing that really helped me get a tighter and more responsive steering was new handlebars. What kind of bars are you riding? I went from the stock buckhorns to some crazy 4" rise z-bars (http://www.lickscycles.com/catalog/images/handlebars-CrazyBars-VT-25-0695-tn.jpg) and noticed a big difference in handling. much more responsive. I now have some 12" z-bars (http://www.lickscycles.com/catalog/images/handlebars-10InchZ-Bars2.jpg) and I can still notice better steering than the buckhorns, but not as much as the lower ones, because with the lower ones I was more hunched over the bars, more like a mountain bike. just didn't feel good on my back, so I got the apes and love them.

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by PerrydaSavage on 08/08/07 at 06:26:15

The S40's OEM drag bar/pull-back riser combo give the LS650 better steering than the Savage's OEM buck-horn bars (IMO). Fitting a 90/90-19 tire on the front (as opposed to the stock 100/90-19) also seems to improve steering response.
To get fatter front rubber? Well, I think that a VZ800 Marauder's front end will transplant to the Savage/S40 ...

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Rockin_John on 08/08/07 at 06:48:35

I haven't tried it yet, but I've been told that just changing the front tire to a 90/90-19 for a lower profile will help the front grip better. It would certainly be something much cheaper to try before going to an 18" wheel.

Having said that, I was wondering how the fat little 110/90-16 tire and wheel from a GZ-250 would feel on a Savage; for as Five_Points said: a "more stable" feel. But I think that would probably be too extreme of a change. However, the GZ-250 does run a 130/90-15 on the back.

So... with the Savages 15" rim on the back, and the GZs 16" rim on the front, a person could mess around with the tire sizes on *both* ends and dial in a pretty good handling combination for more "sporty" handling. How about a low profile 140/70-15 on the back, and a 110/80-16 on the front? Combine that with the chain/sprocket mod, so you could correct your gearing; some rearset controls; a little faring, and you might be able to come up with a very interesting cafe thumper... huh? Of course, some runt on a 250 Ninja would probably still smoke it on a real road course. ;D

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Reelthing on 08/08/07 at 07:11:59

The '95 has a 110/90 me880 - it certainly fills up the fender - When I got the bike this size was on there so when I replaced it (due to age cracks) got another 110/90 - when I compare it to the 100/90 irc on the '02 - what I believe you feel is a more stable slower turning bike in the corners - a little like turning up a steering damper a click or two - it does however reduce the effectiveness of the front brake - because the tire is a little taller it has more leverage to work against the brake pads- a drilled rotor and stainless line put the brake back even with the '02

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Rockin_John on 08/08/07 at 07:33:16

Guess I'm lucky that both my bikes came to me with braided SS front brake lines, so I don't even know what one feels like without it. I will say though, for such a small looking disc, the front brake on the Savage seems to work extremely well. But then, I haven't subjected it to really hard braking for long periods where they can start to fade. Boy that's not a good feeling; when your brakes get so hot that they feel like they've been greased.

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by mpescatori on 08/08/07 at 10:38:03

Thanks all.
The point is my best experience with bikes that could corner were with a Moto Guzzi V50 (I could easily scrape her footpegs 8)) with rear gas Cerianis, and a much softer BMW R65, to which I replaced the rear shocks with gas Marzocchis - then I could scrape the cylinder guard bars :)

On the Savage, once I lean a bit (not "a little bit", a bit like "in them ole days")
I feel I'm losing the front wheel, she starts getting wider and wider and... :o
...and if I don't touch the front brake and apply some bite in that front rubber I go kiss the guard rail... ::)

So... rearset controls? Certainly!

Handlebars? At the moment I have the (European) OEM setup, which is really narrow dragbars at a very comfortable setting - maybe I would benefit from wider dragbars? Certainly not any lower, though! 8)

Maurizio

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by mornhm on 08/08/07 at 10:58:43

I'm not sure that this is what you are looking for, but I was able to easily drag the pegs all the way around the corners on my Savage. The OEM tires had plenty of grip and the geometry of the MC was OK to hold that lean angle through corners. Of course that was the limit, because once you start dragging hard parts it's easy to break something or lift a wheel and wash out. But with my Savage at least the limitation was not the tires or geometry it was the clearance (yes, I had my springs adjusted to the stiffest setting). My thought is that without increased ground clearance the MC in stock configuration will go around corners as fast as it can go.

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Windrider on 08/08/07 at 22:30:36

Well, maybe this is a silly post, but I've only been riding around 8 months. For the first month or to, I was terrified of cornering.

I'd slow down to the point of traffic hazard because I felt the bike was fighting me on turns. I'm sure lack of confidence also played a part.

Then, a more experienced rider/friend of mine mentioned counter steering. I surfed it up and got a lot of technical stuff on the gyroscopic effects of the spinning wheels and such, but once I learned to trust it, it completely changed the way the bike handled in tight turns.

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by mpescatori on 08/09/07 at 00:51:26

Windrider, if "countersteering" means what I think it means, on the Savage the center of gravity is so far back I can only sense danger.

It's OK to countersteer on a SuperMoto, that's how they corner on track, and dirtbikes etc., but they have a completely different geometry !

Furthermore, on those bikes you countersteer to react to "power oversteer", which on the Savage seems a prett-tty steep wager... if there's one thing the Savage does not have, it's too much power.

It may well be the OEM drag bars are too narrow and high and the footpegs too far forwards to allow "proper" control, European style. So I assume I may have to pull the footpegs farther back, and get wider bars (like, Dyna bars)

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by PerrydaSavage on 08/09/07 at 01:08:53

mpescatori ... ya countersteer ALL motorcycles to get 'em to go 'round corners at any pace above trotting speed ... it's usually just not as extreme as what you see with supermoto or flat-track racing ... often those guys are power-sliding around turns and use EXTREME countersteer to correct the skid ...

My experiences were 'zactly the same as Windriders when I was first starting out ... then I learned; "push left, go left ... push right, go right" ... took me a couple of summers, but I finally started to get the hang of it! ;D

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by mpescatori on 08/09/07 at 09:17:15

???

Sorry, I'm stuck there, will research...

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Windrider on 08/14/07 at 21:49:53

It has to do with the gyroscopic effects of the spinning of the wheel. The centripidal(?) force caused by the momentum of the wheels spin redirects the force applied when you move the handlebars off in a 90 degree vector...

oh hell...I can't parrot it...like I said...its voodoo to me but I know my cornering is much more responsive and nimble now that countersteering has become part of my "instinct".

And yes is is quite different from the radical countersteering done when sliding on loose dirt or gravel.

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Rogue_Cheddar on 08/15/07 at 10:14:03

You can imagine or liken countersteering to a controlled fall. As you push the left grip to the right, the bike will fall to the left and vice versa. Scary init?

Title: Re: Fatter front tire
Post by Bri_Fri on 08/17/07 at 01:00:10

Speaking of tires... a 130/90-16 Metzler me880 will fit on the rear right?

Cheers,
Brian