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Message started by T-Mack1 on 07/31/07 at 06:57:53

Title: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by T-Mack1 on 07/31/07 at 06:57:53

All,
So for those of you that haven't had chance to ripe apart you engine, here's what it looks like when you split the crankcase.
http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1946.JPG

for bigger pic see: http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1946.JPG

To the left is the transmission, to the right is the crankshaft, and far right behind the gear is the counter balance. Not very much inside.

-----------------------------------
Reason I have is apart is:
http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1948.JPG

also see: http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1948.JPG

Notice the shape of the aluminum, yes it actaully flaked off. I'm going thru and doing an ultra clean to make sure there's no flakes around. Got the bike as a rolling frame (very clean 2001 frame). The previous owner was not mechaniclly inclined. The amount of cleaning I'm doing would have cost of ton of Labor fee's. Was not cost effective for him to rebuild.

http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1950.JPG

also see: http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1950.JPG
http://

http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1951.JPG

also see: http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1951.JPG

Here's a shot of the Oversizeed piston next to the old one. Yes, your eyes aren't playing tricks, the old piston is bent.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Reelthing on 07/31/07 at 11:46:05

sorry if you said what happened in the first place else where - I've not gotten through very many post lately - but what did happen - run the poor thing out of oil or run on a oil/gas mixture for a good while?

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/31/07 at 11:46:17

What caused that?

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by srinath on 07/31/07 at 12:03:35

He had a heat seize ... I believe. Steel sleeve vs aluminum piston - aluminum loses, and its good that it does.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by T-Mack1 on 07/31/07 at 13:07:50

Previous owner said he was driving down the interstate on his way home from work (evening shift so it was 11 PM'ish). He said it lost power as if it ran out of gas, but he knew it was almost full. He switched to reserve and it picked up for a second or two then died again. He said it would turn over but not fire. He took it to a repair shop and they said he needed a new engine.

What we found:
- Oil in the little recesses here and there was black, so it makes me think he missed an oil change.

- Upon cleaning the embedded aluminum from the cylinder sleeve, the machinist said the cylinder was a hair undersized. Tight cylinder to start with doesn't help a air cooled, factory leaned out bike. Note: the machinist is a friend and is doing the labor free. He has a "better idea" for the head cap plug too, but will report on that once I know it works.

- I don't know if there was oil in the gas because the oil was drained and the engine in pieces when I picked up the bike. Couldn't smell gas in what was there, but the engine sat in a box over the winter.

- Gas in the oil, I take it your thought line is the petcock,... Well there was gas in the tank, the carb was off and no tell tail signs of gas on the fuel petcock fittings when we got home from the 6 hr drive picking it up. But, I still have to check that over. I was thinking of temporarily putting clear hose on the vacuum line to watch for fuel movement after I get the bike together.

- I'm now waiting on parts. The O.S. piston "kit" didn't come with a wrist pin or circlips, so I ran down to the stealer (oops dealer) and ordered them. The parts guys also thought the kit would have included them. I should have asked the forum. Well, I called to day and they said the order only went in yesterday, not last Thrusday when I ordered them. And, the RonAyers order of gaskets, Cam chain (the engine is apart,has 10K miles, why not) and oil filter is still showing as waitng fullment (order went in a 7 days ago).

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Rockin_John on 07/31/07 at 13:10:44

Thanks for the great pictures! I'd like to have more showing other shots of the crankshaft, transmission and counterbalance system. Nice compliment to the "Savage Companion CD," since it includes no "in the case" pictures.

Also, one thing I'd like to know when you reassemble it: Just how hard is it to get all those parts to stay in place while you stab the opposing case on there? ;D

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by rokrover on 07/31/07 at 13:15:09

Indeed - interesting pic and a lot of space in there. Thanks for posting. Me, I'd be worried about reusing that connecting rod after bending a piston.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by T-Mack1 on 07/31/07 at 13:36:22

The case came apart easiler than the service manual says. Had my son lift slightly on the case and I tapped the ends of the crank and the shaft the clutch is on with a rubber faced hammer (craftsman). Wasn't a "pop" but wasn't much tapping and almost no force on the hammer. I was worried because the gear puller I have didn't line up with the hole for the factory fancy thing they say to use.

Since I only took one side apart at a time, putting it together to flip to do the other side was easy too. I just laid it on its side and laid the case half on. A little bit of doulbe checking that all the shfts were in the holes. The shaft that the clutch goes on was a little stubborn but very light taps on one side then to other let if slip on ok. I did remeber to lube all the shafts (WD40) to help.

I'm now trying to get the flywheel off. Looks like I'll need the flywheel puller. Found some listed on a Yahoo search. "DS-MP31" and a "MP31". May talk to my machinist since the threads are listed (M50x1.5).

I'll take more picture when I go to seal it up.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by T-Mack1 on 07/31/07 at 13:40:48

Connecting ROD, yes, there is still the question of the connecting rod.

On a good note, the rod is steel , piston aluminum. The rod is also futher away from the heat. But......

I'm now waiting for the wrist pin to check.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Reelthing on 07/31/07 at 20:03:34

I'd bet he ran it nearly empty of oil - for sure toss the cam chain in the trash - might be worth eyeballing the cam "bearing" surfaces for any galling - from Gregs collection - a good one and a bad one .....

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Cam_Bearing_Compare.jpg

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by justin_o_guy on 07/31/07 at 20:26:08

Since y9ou are about to stick a new cam chain in, maybe you would like to go for the Cryo treatment on it? I have done a bit of looking into it & if I remember right, its dang cheap.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/01/07 at 05:34:15

I guess it could also be that there was either a petc0ck or carb malfunction allowing pushwater to flow into the engine, thinning the oil and trashing its effectiveness.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by T-Mack1 on 08/01/07 at 06:10:00

Yes, cam journal was bad. Replacement head assy from salvage yard (w/ guarantee) $200.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by srinath on 08/01/07 at 08:22:27

T-Mack1 wrote:

<snip>
Found some listed on a Yahoo search. "DS-MP31" and a "MP31". May talk to my machinist since the threads are listed (M50x1.5).

I'll take more picture when I go to seal it up.

I actually made a flywheel puller, and someone has it borrowed for now. You can get it after him if you like.
Yes 50 X 1.5 pitch is a common adjustment collar size on steering stem type items. Just weld it to a pie and put a fly wheel remover cross bar on the other end of the pipe and weld it all up and you're good to go. Yea put a handle on it too.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Kropatchek on 08/02/07 at 12:01:24

Rockin_John wrote:

Yes there are pictures of the inside ( made them myself)
Second: when the engine is on it's LH side, tap the shafts with a non-malet hammer to keep them in the LH crankcase half, no problem at all.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Rockin_John on 08/02/07 at 12:36:55

Kropatchek wrote:

Yes there are pictures of the inside ( made them myself)
Second: when the engine is on it's LH side, tap the shafts with a non-malet hammer to keep them in the LH crankcase half, no problem at all.

Mia Culpa Mr. van der xxxxx After looking again I did find internal engine and transmission pictures. Decent quality too!

In all my years of motorcycle riding and tinkering, I have successfully avoided having to crack open the cases on any bike (thankfully). But I have had other assemblies apart that required holding many things in alignment while putting the cover of case back together, and sometimes it can be very frustrating. I just wondered how bad the Savage crankcase was.

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by T-Mack1 on 08/06/07 at 07:29:23

It lives!!!

Friday (8/3)- gaskets came!!!, assembly started. Piston & cylinder on , didn't get the head on. 11 PM and tired, was up as 5 AM, so starting to make "oop's".
Sat (8/4) - Head on, valves set, clutch reinstalled. Mounted engine in bike (heavy!!! Had duct tape on frame to prevent scratches, but it got scratched anyway). Oil in, hook up battery to crank it over w/o spark plug in (no load). No funny noises, Yea!!!. Check oil to head by loosing the bolt that has the oil passage. NO OIL, D--M!. Take bolt all the way out, try again - squirt - right in the face - safety glasses an oily mess. Put all the trim on the engine. 9 pm, sit back, have a beer and admire the bike.
Sun (8/5) - (started after lunch) Exhaust cleaned and mounted, Carb mounted. Wired a tach while I had the gas tank off. Mount tank & install a temporary clear tube as petc-ck vacuum line to watch for gas. 5:30 pm, it fires alive!!!

Short trip around the block (could walk home if something goes wrong). No problems, no leaks , Yea!!! Short trip to gas station and back. Realize I still have shorts and sneakers on because of the 92 degree heat. Change to riding clothes.

18 miles later, the rain starts....helps wash the bugs off the teeth (How do you tell a happy motorcycleist??).

Title: Re: the inside of the engine - Photo
Post by Rockin_John on 08/06/07 at 10:08:22

Congrats! 8) Long live your Savage!!! ;D