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Message started by toddlamp8 on 07/24/07 at 13:44:33

Title: valve tap when hot
Post by toddlamp8 on 07/24/07 at 13:44:33

I am getting a fairly loud tapping noise when the engine is hot. I assume it's the valves needing adjustment but it only happens after the engine get hot. I'm wondering if it's because the oil has thinned out. Should I put in a high weight oil? I am using 10w40. I know that others have mentioned that a slight tapping noise is normal but this sounds excessive. It still rides just fine, but I will probably do a valve adjustment soon.

I would appreciate any insight you may have for this "problem" and tips toward correct adjustment.

Thanks,
Todd

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by JakeB on 07/24/07 at 17:28:03

I just noticed the same thing happening on mine sunday after sitting in traffic for about 25 minutes, but I just adjusted the valves less than 1500 miles ago. Also running 10w40, I have some 20w50 I'm gonna try next oil change. Hopefully that will help.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by justin_o_guy on 07/24/07 at 18:32:43

Yea, mine ticks a bit louder when it's hot, too. When I think about the reason for setting valves with some gap in them it starts me thinking that maybe they really should be louder whenits cold, The valvesget longer when they get hot & close the gap( or so I thought) So, anyone want to explain to me why they get louder when hot? I know I shouldnt, but I have been thinking that since even at the hottest Ive seen the thing, the valves still tick, that being so, I wonder if they cant be set a bit closer & still not hurt anything?

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by toddlamp8 on 07/24/07 at 18:49:37

My take is that as it gets hotter the oil gets thinner and provides less protection. I'm guessing that's why the valves are supposed to be adjusted when it's cold.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by verslagen1 on 07/24/07 at 19:20:42

The reason the valves get louder when hot is the head is aluminum and the valves are steel. When I did a thermogrowth of the cam chain versus the cylinder the diference was ~.015".

So, the head being aluminum grows more the the valves.

I don't have the history to back it up, only Suzuki's recommendations. Adjust as required by zuki. And consider the valve noise a red idiot light, and it's telling you to pull over and let it cool off.

You'll have the same issue with 20w-50. I don't know the viscosity at the temperature when your valve start to knock but at the desired running temp the oil is thicker. So less oil maybe circulating. If you really want to improve protection, use syn.

Just my opinion. ;D

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by toddlamp8 on 07/24/07 at 20:21:05

Hmmm, I did only use conventional. I was worried that Synth would mess with the clutch and tranny (too slippery).

Would adjusting the valves help or are you implying that i'm running lean? I have a 155 jet and no mods. I find it hard to believe that too lean is my problem.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by verslagen1 on 07/24/07 at 20:46:12

I don't use it myself, but what i've heard is better cooling and no breakdown of the oil.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by justin_o_guy on 07/24/07 at 21:09:02

[The reason the valves get louder when hot is the head is aluminum and the valves are steel. When I did a thermogrowth of the cam chain versus the cylinder the diference was ~.015".

So, the head being aluminum grows more the the valves.

Okay, I am trying to visualize the head, cam, rockers & valves. The cam sits in aluminum bearing surfaces cut ib the head. The rockers are mounted to,,, what? ( my minds eye goes blind right there) Then, the rockers slap down on the valve end when the cam lobe comes up & hits the rocker.

Now, aluminum expands more than steel, ( I happen to know that because you said so, else I would be guessing) Okay, Now, IF the part I cant visualize just happens to be on top of the hottest part of the engine, & I think it is, & IF that part gets taller, then it would increase the gap on each end of the rockers! Making it tick harder. Well,, since it does that about every time I ride, I guess if its hurting it, it will just have to die an early death, cuz I am not gonna stop riding when I hear that extra Tick, I will let you guys know if I lose an angine over it.

Ver, thanks man, those answers that include scientific fact really help me understand things,. Maybe I will & maybe I wont actually use what I learn, but that doesnt mean I dont appreciate the info,

Of course, If I have got this figured out wrong, I hope you can explain it so i can "get it", I may be a hundred miles off here.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by verslagen1 on 07/24/07 at 21:40:17

You got it, the rocker shafts are on top of the head.

And Aluminum grows faster than steel. Not much air flow or fins up there either. ;D

I took off the chrome up there. I hope for a little more cooling.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by toddlamp8 on 07/24/07 at 22:45:42

Wow, with the ticking, timing chain tensioner, and oil leaks, I can't believe they are still using this engine!

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by justin_o_guy on 07/24/07 at 22:58:07

Internal combustion engines are generally a pretty crude piece of work. Jus think about what they really do for a minute. I am amazed that they even run for more than a few 100 miles. You have a metal slug dragging hardened rings sideways up & down a sleeve, hoping nothing sticks to anything moving at a different speed. There are explosions that drive the rings out tighter against the sleeve. There is a very this wall of oil between parts that are being crushed together by compression boosted by the explosion. Now, go back in time to metallurgy that just wasnt all that great & lubricants that literally "couldnt stand the heat" & it gets easy to see hopw a car would be shot at 100,000 miles. This engine at least has a roller bearing on the big end. Thats gotta help a lot. None of this explores the tension on things at the top of the exhaust stroke.
Yep, Internal combustion engines are crude, minimally effective & so VERY attractive!

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by skrapiron on 07/25/07 at 05:39:23

it's certainly not the viscosity of the oil that's causing the noise.

We're using multi-grade oils in our bikes. That means that the same oil will have different viscosity properties at different temperatures.

In the case of the 10w40 that Suzuki calls for in the Savage/S-40: At start up, the engine oil has a viscosity index of 10, meaning that it will flow very easily at temperatures above 32*. At a around 212*, the base oil in the blend begins to thin out and loses it's lubricity. Thats where the blended oil viscosity takes over. At temps above 212*, the oil with a viscosity index of 40 is used to protect the moving parts and provide continued lubricity. The 40w oil is good for temps approaching 400*. Higher viscosity oils will protect to higher temps (such as in diesel engines where head temps can reach 600*)

Synthetic based oils can continue to provide lubricity at much higher temperatures than organic based oils. But at normal operating temperatures, they provide little better protection than organic based oils.

What makes the difference in the performance of the blended multi-grade oil is not only the quality of the base oil , but also the additive package of modifiers and detergents as well as the oil's ability to dissipate heat.

In a large displacement, single cylinder application such as the Savage/S-40, a synthetic base or synthetic blend oil will likely provide more upper cylinder protection and better cooling than conventional organic based oils.

My own experience with the different oils supports this opinion. On my Savage, I do develop the valve tap after prolonged periods of idling (stuck in traffic). But that noise diminishes when I get back up to speed and the passing air begins to cool the cylinder. When using conventional oils, the valve tap happens sooner and seems louder than it does with the syntetic base oil that I selected.

On a related note, it is important to select motorcycle-formulated oils only and not use automotive formula oils. Automotive oils have additional friction modifiers that can cause the wet-cluuch to slip, glaze and eventually fail.

Suzuki offers a synthetic blend as well as a full syntetic oil for it's air-cooled engines. Mobil 1 also makes a very good full synthetic motorcycle formula oil as well.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by justin_o_guy on 07/25/07 at 09:13:55

A notable exception to the automotive oil & friction modifiers is Rotella -T 15-40. I am running that. It costs less than $9.00 a gallon at Wally Mart. May be penny wise & $ foolish. only time will tell.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/25/07 at 11:01:25

Rotella-T's come up before as one recommended by many folks but there was also the discussion of it having been designed for diesel engines. Something about it suspending a lot more soot that one designed for gasoline engines. I don't know how bad this migh or might not be but I just seemed to remember it from one of the MANY preexisting oil topics on this site.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by verslagen1 on 07/25/07 at 11:13:09

if i remember right, it has ash witch will leave deposits in the combustion chamber.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/25/07 at 11:25:36

Now that was the 15w40 Rotella-T dino juice. I'm now seeing a lot of folks really pleased with the newer 5w40 Rotella-T full synthetic (http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/product_rotellasynth.html) in their bikes. I'll have to do some more reading. It looks like folks report it's about $13 per gallon at Sprawl-Mart and, if it's that great an oil, it may be worth switching to at that price.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by grandpa on 07/25/07 at 13:19:12

My first oil change I used the Mobil 10-40 full synthetic cycle oil from the 'Zone. No oil burn and no valve tap when hot. The 2nd oil change after reading about everybody using Rotella, I went economical. I have burned some, just topped off once, but I have the valve tap when hot. Coming up on the third oil change and I am going back to the full synthetic. Two qts every three months or so isn't going to break me. The peace of mind is worth more than that. Just my opinion.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/25/07 at 13:26:26

Might give the Rotella-T 5w-40 full synthetic some thought. I'm going to consider it. I have at least a couple more quarts of Mobil 1 in my garage for the next change but after that, we'll see.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by verslagen1 on 07/25/07 at 13:42:42

The 5w concerns me as that was one of the indicators of friction modifiers. I was going to do that too, but not till I am able to check it out.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by vroom1776 on 07/25/07 at 14:55:11

Savage_Rob wrote:

M I have at least a couple more quarts of Mobil 1 in my garage for the next change but after that, we'll see.

back cap (V-twin specific) or gold cap?

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/26/07 at 04:50:06

verslagen1 wrote:

The 5w concerns me as that was one of the indicators of friction modifiers. I was going to do that too, but not till I am able to check it out.

Same here. I want to learn more first.

vroom1776 wrote:

back cap (V-twin specific) or gold cap?

Black cap V-twin 20w50.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Strafford_Guy on 07/26/07 at 13:11:25

The link below is from the Rolleta site and their recommanation to use T

Rolleta
Ask our expert - Motorcycle

http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert_topic.html

I have not used it.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by verslagen1 on 07/26/07 at 19:23:58

Thanks for the link because that sinces it for me.

Rotella T maybe I'll try the syn in the winter.

Ash content below the recommended 1.2% and phosforous for extra wear protection. And dam cheap!

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Jsud04 on 10/09/13 at 03:29:55

So is tapping or valve no is an inherent feature of the savage or not. Seems to me that the vales will tap a little bit, its just a factor of how much.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Rush-rks on 10/09/13 at 08:51:05

Mine does that too when hot..after a longer ride than just riding to work. More of a "tick" than a "tap" noise...and only hear it when I'm stopped.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by Steve H on 10/09/13 at 16:03:39

Mine tick a little when hot too. This is basically a very old design. It's like the rocker arms that were used in 60's and 70's bikes. Metal on metal with no cushioning save for the oil.

No hydraulic lifters, no self adjusting, adjustment screw with locknut for clearance adjustment. Just like the old days. Rocker rides on top of cam, rotates on pin, pushes valve.

A small amount of ticking is normal on any engine with cam and rockers like ours.

Title: Re: valve tap when hot
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/13 at 17:28:43

Add to that the shape of the adjusters.. pointed,, no flat area to BE cushioned by oil,
If its not makin noise, its dying.