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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Spark Knock... Oh No!! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1182986642 Message started by rmurwin on 06/27/07 at 16:24:02 |
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Title: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 06/27/07 at 16:24:02 Hi everyone, I'm a new member. My wife just bought a 2001 Savage with about 20,000 miles, and it definitely makes a noise if I lug it a little during acceleration. Could it be spark knock? I did a search real quick on this forum to try and find out if it is a known problem, but I couldn't find much. Here is what I do know about the bike. I just adjusted to valves to spec last night, and while doing so I noticed a significant carbon buildup on the piston. So much so that some came out on the screw driver that I used to find TDC. The bike still has the gas that the previous owner had in it, so I don't know what octane it is. The spark plug electrodes did not show any signs of burning too hot, no yellow discoloration or "blistering" and in fact it was somewhere between dark brown and grayish-black son I'm inclined to think that the carb jetting is probably close to correct. Do any of you guys/girls that have been riding the Savage for a while have any experience with or words of wisdom for what I'm seeing (hearing)? Thanks in advance, Richard |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Polar_Pilot on 06/27/07 at 16:30:41 I have experienced the same thing but I do not think it is pre- ignition - rather I thought it was the engine balance compensator trying to keep up with the crank when the crank was turning to slow. A 10 miles run on the highway at 60 mph will clear that carbon out of the engine - and give you a better idea of what is going on inside the engine by getting that spark plug to run at full engine temperatures. The plug should be fawny brown - there is a trick on the plug too - only put one bolt on the side cover on the left side - that way you can swing it out and with a bit of wiggling get your spark plug out without having to pull the gas tank. The solution to the knocking is simply not to run the engine rpms so low - this is not a harley and it does not have a massive flywheel to keep it turning over. Good luck with it |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Dr_Jim on 06/27/07 at 22:55:20 - |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Beatduck on 06/27/07 at 23:07:34 I thing I might have done that. (Not tightening that bolt enough) I was getting at the front of the engine covers to clean them up. I check that tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by serowbot on 06/27/07 at 23:12:14 I agree with Polar_Pilot, except I took those stupid covers off completely. Also, don't be tempted to set the idle speed too low like some folks like. I like the sound that way too, but the savage don't like it. It's hard on the top end, not enough oil pumping up there. And... one more 2 center. A lot of harley guys I know swear by 1oz. per gallon of marvel mystery oil in the gas to clear carbon. Not all the time, just if think it could use it. O.K. one more, cause I'm bored... Somebody here posted pics of a carboned up piston that ran on high test, then showed the same engine with more miles on it and way less carbon using regular. I believe it because this is a low tech, low compression motor. High test isn't better or faster gas, it just has an anti-knock additive in it that slows combustion for high compression engines. I'm gonna' get in trouble for that one. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Kropatchek on 06/28/07 at 03:08:21 serowbot wrote:
No, you don't! Idle RPM: 1000 - 1200 ( mine is closer to 1200) High compression - High octane Low compression - Low octane |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 06/28/07 at 04:26:10 Thanks for the information everyone. I'll check that bolt tonight. Does anyone have any information on what the compression really is on these bikes? I won't even touch the high octane vs. low octane discussion, 'cause it turns ugly early. It really sounds like pre-ignition... I can make it do it by just lugging the engine a little like if I don't give it quite enough throttle when letting out the clutch. If it's not spark knock, and it turns out not the be the bolt that Dr_Jim referred to, any other ideas? |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Savage_Rob on 06/28/07 at 05:39:14 serowbot wrote:
It not only reduces preignition in high compression engines, it reduces preignition in high temperatures. Once it gets above 95° F here, I switch to high octane because I never know when it'll be 100°+. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by justin_o_guy on 06/28/07 at 05:56:50 I have a Moto Guzzi, pretty high compression. Recommended fuel is High test. The man who owns the place I bought it told me I could run regular, just dont let it knock. All ya gotta do is not lug it. My 650 will make a clattering sound IF I lug it. If you are getting that noise, the problem isnt fuel, its driving style. The engine wont last as long (imo) if that RPM & load are allowed to continue. More RPM & it goes away, so rev it up & go, dont let it clatter. Sure, check bolts, always a good idea, Run high octane when the temp goes high. But that noise at low speeds is bad news IMO. I know the sound you are talking about. I used to hear it some when the bike was new. Either I learned to ride it & not make it happen, or once it broke in good, it didnt want to do it so easily, I dont know, but I very rarely hear that sound now. When O do I clutch quickly & rev it & go. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by azjay on 06/28/07 at 06:54:33 carbon build up will promote pinging as will higher engine temps, especially for those of us that see 100* F deg on a daily basis 8), clean carbon out and/or run premium. a thumper SHOULD be able to pull low rpms. jmo |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 06/28/07 at 12:28:50 That's just it. It's not just if I try to make it knock, it does it under hard acceleration also. Now, you have to remember that this bike is not mine, it's my wifes. It must be a funny sight to see me on the bike as I'm 6'-3" and weigh about 290lbs. Lets just say that she is considerably smaller than me, so if the knocking is a result of my weight on the bike, it may not be a huge problem. But, I can guarantee that she will be spending time in the wrong gear, as this is her starter bike. If running a higher octane to prevent pre-ignition works, that is what I'm going to do. It just worries me that the bike has such a hard time pulling me without making a lot of extra noise. Are there any other failures that I might be concerned with that start out sounding like spark knock? |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by justin_o_guy on 06/28/07 at 13:14:26 I know you have no tach, but how far off idle is it when you are accelerating>? Is this a full throttle punch or just rolling on with "gusto"? If you are rolling 25 mjph in 5th gear & hit the gas, its liable to argue about that, in fact, I dont nail it under 45 or better in fifth & usually shift to 4th if I am gonna play hard with it. I dont mind rolling on at 40 or so, but I wont just open it up. I weigh just under 140. The book says 30 mph in 5th, but it feels like its lugging if its not perfectly level ground. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 06/28/07 at 14:43:30 To be a little more specific; if I'm accelerating like I pulled out in front of someone, from a dead stop, running through the gears from first through fifth, gear shifts when the rate of acceleration drops, give it a good whack to continue accelerating, it knocks. The knock goes away when one of two things happen; I reach the speed I want to go or I let off the throttle (a little) and accelerate slower. This is definately not a shifting too soon issue, but I'm not trying to wring it's neck either. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by serowbot on 06/28/07 at 15:04:39 That don't sound normal for this bike at all. Maybe you have so much carbon built up, it has raised your compression? Maybe try some fuel additive to clean out the carbon? |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Roadie on 06/28/07 at 15:23:33 rmurwin wrote:
What octane are you using? Is it too high? What's in your tank.... The other day I saw that the price of gas went down in the area and I said, oh he11 lets be nice and put the next grade up from crap in. Big mistake, knocked on hard acceleration. Burnt that tank and put low octane in. Wow, no knock.. Put some 87 in and I bet it goes away..... |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 06/28/07 at 15:31:35 I'm not sure of the octane, as we just bought this bike for my wife and it still has the fuel in it from the previous owner, but using lower octane to eliminate spark-knock is backwards from what I've been told. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by justin_o_guy on 06/28/07 at 17:00:40 Okay, now, with that description of riding & exactly when it knocks & when it stops, this is very abnormal. I would rid myself of the fuel in the tank & put in good fresh stuff. Load the gas can for the lawnmower up with this stuff. Pull the plug & see what the gap is. maybe you dont have one? Habe you taken it out to see what top end it will deliver? Just go to it easy, try to not let it clatter, that stuff isnt healthy. Maybe it is all carboned up. I dont know how a bike gets loaded up. Mine sure better not, Ill be ticked off. Keep us posted. Thanks for the detailed description. Hey, at 20,000 it either has a new cam chain or likely needs one. Guys, can he be hearing chain on chain or tensioner trying to fly? |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Roadie on 06/28/07 at 18:55:40 http://www.stanford.edu/~bmoses/knock.html I stand corrected.... Though try the simple cheap things first. IF the cam chain hasn't been done. Think about that seriously (at least look in the engine and check the tension).. - Roadie |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Savage_Rob on 06/29/07 at 05:34:55 Roadie wrote:
With 20k miles on her, that's a decent possibility. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by barry68v10 on 06/29/07 at 16:40:00 A stretched cam chain won't induce knock! It will retard the timing which will reduce/eliminate knock... |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 07/07/07 at 09:20:17 Okay, so we put high octane gas, carbon cleaner ("snake oil" if you ask me), and ran it at highway speeds for 15-20 minutes.... still knocks. I'm starting to get real worried about this bike. I'm going to look on here for advice regarding the timing chain, and I'll get back when I've done the work to let you guys know what I come up with. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by verslagen1 on 07/07/07 at 14:02:31 In cars, you'd get that knock when it needed a tune up and you floored it. Sometimes ignition wires or plugs would fix it. You only get carbon build up knock when the engine was hot. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by serowbot on 07/07/07 at 17:38:31 I think maybe, being as big as you are (290lbs), that a normal running savage will knock a little if your lugging the engine at all. Does' it knock when when your wifes riding solo? For instance, you shouldn't even get into 5th gear until 50mph minimum. Would it still knock accelerating from 50mph in fifth? |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by barry68v10 on 07/07/07 at 17:51:22 I weigh 220, I had a 250lb pillion and didn't have any knock...there's something other than rider weight at play here...oh, BTW, i have a 17/43 sprocket setup and the 470lb load didn't induce knock with 87 octane fuel! |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 07/09/07 at 07:25:54 serowbot wrote:
Yes, it does when she's riding solo, and when accelerating when over 50mph. We stopped by a motorcycle dealership/repair shop and had a technician listen to it. He says that it sounds like "piston slap" and that the bike needs a top end. Possibly also a cylinder problem, i.e. needs replaced. I sensed that they may have been fishing to see if I would bite on a $1000 repair bill. Anyway, I tore it down this weekend and have the cylinder with me to have it measured against the specs. I don't have the tools to measure it myself (yet). Is there such a thing as an oversized piston for the LS650? Richard |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 07/16/07 at 16:04:32 I think I found it!! So as I was saying in another post (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1184106149), I went by a local motorcycle shop and had a mechanic take a listen and a test ride on my wife's savage. In a nutshell, he told me "piston slap, head gasket leak, burning oil, probably needs a new cylinder". Summary: $1000 repair bill. I took the bike straight home and tore down the engine. After taking the head cover off I found an item laying in the area in the head where the camshaft lobes rotate through to pickup oil. The item is #6 on this schematic (http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic.asp?dept_id=724779)... Turns out that it prevents the camshaft from moving laterally in and striking the head. There would be no way for it to come out on it's own, so someone must have dropped it while reassembling the engine. I removed a broken head cover bolt while I was in there. After I reassemble the engine with the new piston, I'll know for sure. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by grandpa on 07/16/07 at 17:49:23 Don't worry about weight. I am 6 ft and 310 lbs. I have just turned over 4000 miles on my '06. I run regular with no problems. If I get lazy and don't give enough gas I can induce a lugging 'knock' that goes away with a little throttle. Just about any motor will do that at some point. Sounds like you found the real problem anyway. Good luck!! |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 07/31/07 at 19:04:36 Time for an update! I got the cylinder back from the machine shop last Thursday. If anyone lives near Brooksville, FL and needs machine shop work on their bike, take it to Tri-County Cycle. The store looks like it hasn't been maintained for 20 years, but man does Dave know his motorcycles. I set the cylinder up on the counter and without even saying anything he says "this from an LS650?" Perfect job on the bore and hone!! Anyway, got it home and immediately started working on it. After assembling, discovering 5 stripped bolts, disassembling, helicoiling, and reassembling, removing the side cover (with the oil still in it), putting the washer in the right place on the starter gears (twice), reinstalling the side cover, and readjusting the valves at TDC of compression stroke (instead of TDC of exhaust stroke, BIG difference) it runs like a champ and there is no sign of any knock, ping, rattle, or any other unacceptable noise. Sounds just like a high power sewing machine!! All I have to do now is wait for the clutch pressure plate to come in (since I broke it while installing it to the torque spec in the book) and my wife will be back in business. And she said I should let a more experienced mechanic work on it. What does she know? 8) |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/07 at 19:14:56 Tell her you're as experienced as most of the snot nosed stealership mech's, but it'll make her feel better tell her to pay up! ;D |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by Rockin_John on 08/01/07 at 19:51:16 Sorry you had such a big job to do to fix a bike you just bought, but it sounds like you did a good fix and should be in good shape for a while now. From all the parts out of place and stripped threads, I'm guessing the seller had a good idea they were selling your a load of trouble. That's a crappy way to do someone. I'd never knowingly pawn that kind of a POS off on someone without fixing it, or being honest about the condition and knocking the price down. Some people have no shame. >:( |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by toddlamp8 on 08/01/07 at 20:28:19 Ugh, based on your noise description I think I have the same problem as you. I get knock on the highway same as you. If i'm cruising at 60mph in 4th (1986 LS650) and I hit the throttle I get knock (sounds like the headlight shaking but I know it's not). I'm not sure I want to go through all of that though. I need to adjust my valves though so i'm praying that that will fix it. And i'm going to try the Mystery Oil too. |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 08/02/07 at 15:16:40 Rockin_John wrote:
That's the same thing that dawned on me as I started to tear it down. A head cover bolt was broken and siliconed in place in an attempt to prevent oil leakage, and one thing after another made me think someone had been in it before. When I found the cam "c" clip laying in the head, I knew it for sure. The old guy that I bought it from lives across the street from me and he is totally devastated with the whole situation. He bought from his son, who is most likely the dirtbag, just to sell it. This qualifies as a "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" type lesson. Anyway, my wife is happy and you know what that means. ;D ;) |
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Title: Re: Spark Knock... Oh No!! Post by rmurwin on 08/02/07 at 15:18:50 toddlamp8 wrote:
From my experience; valves tap, pistons slap. It really wasn't that bad, if you have a service manual. I know a lot more about her motorcycle now, that's for sure. ::) |
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