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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> PLease help... haven't ridden in a month /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1181702741 Message started by Probert31 on 06/12/07 at 19:45:41 |
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Title: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/12/07 at 19:45:41 First, let me thank all of you in this forum. With out the insight here, I never would have had the courage to work on the bike (2005 S40) myself. I wish I had more to offer but before this I never even changed my own oil (Well once...). So here's my issue. I did the white spacer mod and put in a 152.5 main jet for a Jardine muffler. It ran good except for a little sluggishness at approx 1/8 throttle. So this year I added a #55 pilot jet. Since then problems. I can start it up but after less then a mile the bike dies. I replaced the battery but same prob. I took it all apart again and found this... http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f0f711fe36.jpg http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/70420dbb0b.jpg Before I put it back together, with a new hose, could this be the issue? Should I be looking further? Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks again. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Fido_the_Cat on 06/12/07 at 20:14:32 I don't know. If that is the vacuum line on the pettything, yes that could be a problem. Although I don't think that is the problem you are looking for. Try it with the primer on, I think that rules out the vacuum. I too am new at this and don't quite understand the carb functions yet. Try that, see what happens, or see what someone else has to say about it. I think you next plug some lines but now I'm in over my head. I just realized that you have it apart waiting to get it back together. No I do not think that is your problem. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/12/07 at 20:37:01 That sucks. Yes it is the vacuum line. I cut the "holes" out and was going to re-connect it. I've made all the adjustments, according to lancers guide I could but I still had the same problem. Oh yeah, it also happened with the pettything set to prime. I had a nice smell of gas from the airbox and the vent tubes when I took it apart. Could the #55 pilot be too much? The pilot screw was two turns out before I switched. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by serowbot on 06/12/07 at 22:28:00 "Try it with the primer on, I think that rules out the vacuum." Fido the Cat. No it doesn't! But I think Fido is on the right track! Just changing the pilot might hurt gas mileage or effect performance but it shouldn't cause your bike to die. Something else is wrong. My guess is the petcock vacuum diaphragm is leaking. Replacing the line won't fix it. The leak happens in the rubber diaphragm located under the four screws (two pictured in your pic) on the backside of the petcock. Replace the line and you will only seal the leak directly into your intake manifold. To test the petcock, remove that vacuum line (pictured) and cap it at the petcock and at the carb with a rubber plug. Then set the petcock to prime. If it runs good, you must repair, replace, or convert your petcock to manual (see bobo383 in tech section). |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/13/07 at 07:27:53 Thanks for your help guys. Same problem though. I get her started, then, about 1/4 mile out she sputters and dies. There was a bit of backfire as well. When I took it apart there was a moderately strong smell of gas from both the air box and bowl vent tubes. Does this indicate anything to either of you? I read an earlier post that got me thinking.... Could any of this be caused by the float level? I tried to set up the "water level" trick to see if they're at the right levels but was unsuccessful so far. Anyway, thanks again. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 06/13/07 at 10:27:21 Pity I cannot see your pictures for some strange reason. Why did you put in such a big pilot jet ? #50 would have been enough, I think. And I would not have taken away the white spacer when switching to a bigger mainjet... Now, to find out if your mixture is too lean or too fat, check the colour of your spark plug. Then we'll know what to do. Good luck ! ;) |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 06/13/07 at 10:29:57 Ok, now the pictures showed up ::) The pipes goes further into the rubber hose than those marks, so I think that is not the issue. It came to my mind - what airfiltermods have you made ??? |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by serowbot on 06/13/07 at 10:40:35 If you have ruled out the petcock, then it has to be the carb. Remove the float bowl, check that the floats are not filled with gas, check that they move up and down smoothly, check float level, check the float needle and seat for dirt or grit. That should fix it. If that don't do it, you have to go into the carb from the top and check the slide for smoothness and the rubber gasket for leaks. Screws are usually very tight and easy to strip, make sure you use a bit that fits tight and use good pressure on it to break the screws loose. Best of luck, don't give up, you'll get it! |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/13/07 at 17:59:42 Ok. I had the tank off anyway, thinking there might be a leak in the rubber gasket surrounding the slide. There wasn't, but that's when I found the prob with the vac line. I do have the pettything off but I was afraid to take it apart. The beast came with a #52.5 pilot, 2.5 turns out on the pilot screw. I've added the Jardine muffler and it felt sluggish at 1/8-1/4 throttle, still 2.5 turns on the pilot screw, so I bumped it to #55. Since then I haven't ridden five miles. Just sputters and dies. It'll idle for awhile but all the time just begging to die. I have to adjust the pilot screw (turning out) to keep it going. Just pulled the plug. Extremely sooty, black as a hockey puck. How long does it take a rich condition to change the plug color? Could I have been rich before? Considering the pilot screw adjustment, I believed I might be a little lean still. Anyway, I will be taking the bowl off as soon as possible. Any suggestions as to what/ how to inspect/ adjust the float level? I still haven't mastered the water level trick. Thanks again for your help. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/13/07 at 19:13:54 Serowbot, just saw your byline... That's my kind of diet!! Blacksmith, I forgot to add that I have made no air filter modifications. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by serowbot on 06/13/07 at 22:19:51 Look for the floats to be basically parallel with the top of the bowl at full stop. Check the needle/seat for grit with a q-tip coated in carb cleaner, and float bodies for leaks while your in there. But, my money is still on the pethingy diaphragm leaking. That bugger is a common problem on this bike. Lets get you riding again. Good luck, |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 06/13/07 at 23:42:15 Now, if your plug is black and soothy, your mixture is too rich, and the problem is definitely in your jets and nowhere else, especially since you have made no mods on the air intake. Try pilot jet #50, and ride the engine so it's hot, then check the plug. Good luck ! |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/14/07 at 10:47:42 Serowbot... "Look for the floats to be basically parallel with the top of the bowl at full stop." Sorry but could you elaborate When I had the carb apart before, they sort of hung there. Do you mean that the top of the float should be about level with the bottom of the carb, without the bowl? Blacksmith... It came stock with a #52.5 pilot jet and I've increased the airflow with the muffler. I'm not sure if I could go down a jet size. The pilot screw was 2.5 turns out with the #52.5 jet and stock muffler. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Savage_Rob on 06/14/07 at 11:26:56 Assuming this is the stock Mikuni BS40, the pilot jet should only affect it at idle. That said, if it idled smoothly and you were able to tune the carb using Lancer's Straight & Simple Carb Tuning with the #52.5 in place, the jet is fine. If you were unable to enrich the idle sufficiently with that jet, the #55 should be fine. In either case, the pilot circuit is bypassed when you twist the throttle and the main jet and needle are used. Is it dying while riding (with the throttle applied) or after the throttle is released? Or is it both? Peter_the_blacksmith wrote:
I agree. Those just look like someone got overly aggressive with pliers. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/14/07 at 13:20:20 Savage Rob... Both. It will start, but I can only keep going by adjusting the pilot screw out. If I take off on the bike it sputters through acceleration then dies when I decelerate. The original #52.5 jet was good, except for a little sluggishness at 1/8-1/4 throttle, cruising. The pilot jet screw was 2.5 turns out. I thought I could fix both with the increase in jet size. The plug indicates a rich condition. Would the jet change be so significant that it would cause this much of a problem? Could a float issue cause a rich condition? I also get an odor of gas out of the airbox as well as the vent tubes. Thanks again for the help. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Savage_Rob on 06/14/07 at 14:17:07 The pilot jet size increase would not have helped anything at 1/8 throttle as it's bypassed except at idle. If the dying started when you increased that jet, change it back, retune and go from there. Actually, I'd say it probably shouldn't have been changed in the first place if it was idling okay before. That said, if the dying didn't start with that change, I'm leaning toward a float problem as mentioned above. Please read through the Carb references in the Tech Ref forum to try to familiarize yourself better also. They'll really help your overall view of the problem. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/14/07 at 14:33:51 It was my understanding from the technical documents that the pilot system would effect up to 1/4 throttle. Since (after I installed a Jardine muffler) the bike was only sluggish between 1/8 and 1/4, fine into 1/2 and above, I thought that the sluggish/ choppy behavior would fall within the pilot system. Maybe with the muffler leaning out the mixture. I'll try the change. Thanks again for your help. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by serowbot on 06/14/07 at 17:19:54 A change in the pilot jet size one way or the other will mostly be noticed in gas mileage, maybe a bit of backfire and very very slight in performance. Might blacken the plug a bit. But your bike is dieing! And it smells of gas! I'd be looking for gas getting in around the jetting system. That is only through the pethingy vac line or the needle/float. When you just look at the floats, they are hanging (unless the carb is turned upside down. You want to adjust their upward stop point. Gently raise them up with your finger until you feel the needle touch the seat. At that point the flat bottom of the floats should look about parallel to the top of the float bowl. I'm not saying even with, but the lines should look roughly parallel. The manual says 1.1" from bottom of float to the top edge of the float bowl. This is at their upper most point of travel (gentle). Or if you do it with the carb upside down they will be at rest. Hope that helps. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Savage_Rob on 06/14/07 at 17:51:22 Probert31 wrote:
I'm sure there is some overlap with the pilot system but I didn't think it was that much. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I'd been wrong. However, I still think that if it idled well with the #52.5, I'd go back to it and retune... then reassess how it runs and go from there. I'm thinking maybe the float got "bumped" while changing jets and it's flooding now. It'd definitely be good to look at the float's travel whether you put the old pilot back or not. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/14/07 at 18:17:48 Thanks guys. I put the old jet back in. I checked the float level and it looked to me like they close to the bottom of the bowl. They also moved freely. I haven't put the tank back on yet, I wanted to get a new plug first. I will do that tomorrow and try her out. Thanks again!!! I really appreciate your efforts and insight. I wish I had more to offer technically for the forum but if you need any advice on growing tomatoes... |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Savage_Rob on 06/15/07 at 04:22:40 Whenever you listen to me, always keep in mind my tagline: Mechanically Inclined Amateur. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 06/17/07 at 13:15:51 Probert, I think you might have been neglecting one thing, or maybe I did not understand you correctly, when you wrote "It came stock with a #52.5 pilot jet and I've increased the airflow with the muffler. " You don't increase airflow with the muffler, you increase airflow with the airfilter. THINK LIKE THIS: The single cylinder engine is like a bucket. The bucket has a lid (the carb) where we pour in air and water (fuel). The exhaust is a pipe leading the air-fuel mixture out of the engine. The effect is the amount of water-air-mixture that you are able to make pass through the bucket in shortest possible time. Ok, so if you get a more open exhaust, more water will run out IF you put more water in. But if you only pour in more water, not air, there will be a vacuum in the bucket, and the flow will not be the expected. ::) So, you just can't put on a wider exhaust, and go up a bit in jet-size. You must also increase the flow of air. I think your set-up is ok, IF you replace the stock- airfilter in the airbox with a K&N -filter that fits into the box. Good luck ! 8) |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Savage_Rob on 06/17/07 at 18:49:24 In the case of the stock LS650, the muffler is a greater bottleneck than the air filter. Simply swapping to a freer-flowing muffler will increase airflow and leave you with a new bottleneck - the air filter. Removing the snorkel will further increase airflow, as will changing to a freer-flowing filter. |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by Probert31 on 06/18/07 at 20:52:03 I want to thank everyone again. I got her running this weekend. I put the stock pilot jet (#52.5) back in and readjusted the pilot air screw back to 2.25 turns out along with the idle. The sluggishness at 1/4 throttle is back but she runs good. I'm still a little confused as to why it didn't work with the #55 pilot. The black plug and smell of gas suggest flooding to me but... I assume if I also replaced the airfilter it may work, but maybe next year. I just want to ride now. Thanks again!!! |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/07 at 21:13:04 I'm setting in my armchair now and I'll give you my 2¢ Sounds to me as if you need to play with the needle a little. Some people have said that removing the white washer causes flooding and other say its great. Otherwise make sure everythings clean and tite. ;D |
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Title: Re: PLease help... haven't ridden in a month Post by justin_o_guy on 06/19/07 at 01:52:37 We've just recently been shown a real easy way to check floay levels. Hhok a tube on the cast tube poking down from the bowl & open the screw. The petCoCk should be on prime.With the tube up by the bowl you can see where the fuel level is in the carb. If you dont have a clear tube, that's okay, just start with the end held high. As you lower it, the fuel will drip out when the end of the hose is low enough. |
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