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Message started by borne2fly on 05/23/07 at 15:06:29

Title: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/23/07 at 15:06:29

I've heard howls and screams about the long oil path between the oil pump and the camshaft, and how we need to be a little gentle for a minute or two with the engine after it starts to give the oil time to reach the camshaft.

Is there a check valve in this path? Other engines with long oil paths place a check valve in the oil line to prevent the oil draining back, .... when the engine starts, oil is immediately available to the cam area.

Even though the factory saw fit to not use cam bearings or rocker bearings (inexcusable penny-pinching in my opinion), the proper placement of check valves in the oil system would extend the life of the engine tremendously. Hmmmm, might extend it TOO much, maybe that's the issue ;)

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/23/07 at 15:11:11

Also, when I had the cam cover off, I don't recall seeing any oil holes in the rocker shafts, so I shudder to think how they get oil. Please tell me they don't rely on oil splash to lube these shafts ...

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/23/07 at 17:28:24

borne2fly wrote:

Okay, they don't rely on splash... Feel better now?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/23/07 at 20:34:31

Thanks Rob.
I'll sleep better now :)

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Reelthing on 05/23/07 at 20:41:18

it's better than splash - it's the sling method - see that pool of oil right under the cam?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by verslagen1 on 05/23/07 at 22:25:00

if oiling the top was a big issue, we'd be seeing these things fail by now. We've had absolutely only one report of cam bushing failing from some fellow who'll never touch a savage again. Who's the guy who forgot to refill his wife's bike after draining the oil? And that didn't end up with a seized cam. So why all this fuss over some idiot who can write?

I drained my oil, I tipped the bike from side to side to get every last drop. I took the head cover off and look who's taking an oil bath? The cam that's who. Maybe cam seizo got savage no. 1 and they didn't have bathtubs back then. Can't say, but we got them now and it seems to work. If it ain't broke don't fix it. ;D

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/23/07 at 23:01:33

When I did the cam, I filled that little bathtub up with fresh oil. I like that little idea. Looking at the zuki manual, page 4-10 it shows the oil circuit & shows the rockers as being positively oiled from a pressurized galley if I am reading it right.There are little black arows & dotted lines( which indicate internal passageways, I think) The solid lines indicate passages in the block, dashed lines indicate passageways inside the cam & rockers. I didnt do well in mechanical drawing. ( I am being way too kind)

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/23/07 at 23:16:12

Welll, Now, Looka here. Page 4-9 has a flow chart. It shows droplets from cam face to rocker arm & shaft. SO, I am gonna have to say I really did do lousy in mechanical drawing. I guess that's why I couldnt find the passageway to the rocker, cuz it slings on it, Just like Reelthing said.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/24/07 at 08:57:17

Don't think that I recall anyone ever seizing the Savage motor from oil starvation. Most problems seem to involve oil in the wrong places :P

If you do a rebuild it is a good idea to use engine assembly grease on all the head parts anyway. It kinda dirties up the appearance of the oil, but it's good stuff.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Kropatchek on 05/24/07 at 13:24:18

Greg_650 wrote:

If you do a rebuild it is a good idea to use engine assembly grease on all the head parts anyway. It kinda dirties up the appearance of the oil, but it's good stuff.

That's what the book says "Put molycote paste on the cam-bearing surfaces".
Remember the discussion we had over the oil passage on the top of the casing , and the restrictor in the oilline to the other side of the engine, to lubricate the gearbox?
If the restrictor is missing and/or the oilpassage is leaking oil to the inside of the clutch cover the cam will not get enough oil and consequently will seize and destroy the alluminum bearingsurface.
Also the oilring in the clutchcover sealing-off the passage to the crankshaft should be in good condition to build-up suffisient oilpressure.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/07 at 13:42:32

I didn't have the moly stuff when I redid mine so I poured 1/2 quart thru the valve inspection cover to fill up the bathtub for the cam. ;D

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/24/07 at 13:44:48

And what about stuff like Slick-50?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/07 at 13:47:26

It's a friction modifier, liable to screw up the clutch. ;D

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/24/07 at 13:49:11

verslagen1 wrote:

It's a friction modifier, liable to screw up the clutch. ;D

I was waiting to see who'd be first to remember the wet clutch. LOL!

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/26/07 at 12:04:00

Is this still about that silly Wikipedia entry?

Days of discussion over something written by one disgruntled guy about one bike? Things you are struggling to see how it "could have happened" and are having to make up theories to how it mighta coulda maybe possibly take place?

Have you guys even READ the offending Wikipedia entry that caused all this fuss?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_LS650_Savage

I found it quite conclusive, very rational and informative. Indeed, I have to say I agree with it totally and fail to see why you are still even discussing it -- what it says is completely true and has authorative reference conformation sources listed that I feel I can trust.

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/26/07 at 14:21:26

I'll have what he's having.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/26/07 at 17:35:02

He's having him a funny, he rewrote the Wikipedia entry to make it more up to date and real-world accurate.

As I said, "Where is this Wiki thingy -- somebody ought to go fix it".

<grin>

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/26/07 at 18:25:25

And if you are astute, you will go to the Wiki and click on the discussions and read the comments that other people have written about Cancun's orginal Wiki Savage hate-blast -- there have been other "factual sorts" in the past who have found his comments to be unfounded.

Wiki material on the Savage is to be maintained by responsible and authortative sources.

In the English speaking Web world, that's us.

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/26/07 at 20:43:00

Okay...I've had a couple cool ones, watched a movie and grilled some chicken. So, I'm much more relaxed now.

What does this have to do with the topic of "Camshaft Lubrication and long oil Paths".

Stay on the topic.

PS - I was astute enough to go to the link and read it before I posted. I still don't know why you took a dump in this topic.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by verslagen1 on 05/26/07 at 21:39:43

I knew of this wiki for some time, and just found out how easy it is to change. No I didn't delete the complaint, I'd have preferred he validated his claim though. And the shameless plug. Who did that? ;D

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/26/07 at 21:46:01

verslagen1 wrote:

Huh? Are you saying that something was there, and now it is gone?

Still, how did this go from "friction modifier" to Wikipedia?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by verslagen1 on 05/26/07 at 21:55:08

I guess you didn't read the wiki before it was changed... He said the bike was unreliable due to cam shaft failures, why I don't know.

Someone recently updated it and deleted the comment.

And shameless plug wasn't directed at JH. Go back and have another one. ;D

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/26/07 at 22:06:37

verslagen1 wrote:

I don't see how a "shameless plug" could be directed at JH. Only initiated by....

Besides, it's all gone and so is the subject of this thread.

You go have another one, since you started all this. I'm just an innocent bystander wanting to discuss the camshaft lubrication. It's not my fault the Guy2old got all upset....

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/27/07 at 05:07:36

I didn't get upset, I was just funning with you guys for trying to find a real world explanation for something that apparently wasn't all that real to begin with. I wasn't trying to shut down your discussion, just finally got the source fixed so we don't have to discuss it every few weeks whenever somebody new reads the Wiki.

All the "oil up to the top end" things I have ever seen discussed here really seem to boil down into common sense -- keep your idle speed up somewhat to make sure oil continues pumping while you are waiting at lights and such. Keep oil in your bike. Change your oil regularly.

Now if you want to discuss new ways to make sure you get oil up to the top end, that's great. We could discuss moly greases used up there during rebuilds if you wanted a little bit of a residual lube -- but how would you keep it out of the clutch as it moved around later, I dunno.

Hey, if you wanted to inform newbies that they should always keep their idle speed set up a bit higher than they could possibly get away with, then let's put up a permanent sticky at the top of the tech section that tells them that in simple plain terms. Tell them it is to maintain good top end oiling practices and also to prevent endless global Wiki polution too. ::)

If I came across too salty, I appologize. Wrassing with tires does that too me -- not my favorite thing to do.

As far as shameless plugs go, you ARE the English speaking experts. If it were in German language, somebody else might be the expert over there in Europe.

(but not the Scandinavian guy who wrote the book length thing, please)

Now if you do want to have endless "repeater" discussions based on a "in the Wiki" question -- you could go put the cam chain tensioner thing into the Wiki instead of the not-very-real oiler thing that got removed.

<evil grin>

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/27/07 at 06:20:10

I was just funning too, but I really wasn't aware that the Wiki thing had changed...therefore I was in the dark for sure. To me, it looked like a normal "definition".

That's the thing about Wiki. It is a useful resource if the material is correct. Good search engine stuff, but the fact that it can be edited reduces it's degree of reliability.

...and yes, this old guy sucked down a few cold ones while doing yard work and grilling chicken....

Happy Memorial Day weekend, y'all :P

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Max_Morley on 05/27/07 at 17:02:43

Been thinking about the original reason for this post. Seems like if the oil in the filter and oil gallerys are past the pump, then drain back at shut off should be minimal as the pump should serve as a check valve of sorts. When we change the oil then we add a big air bubble in the system, but given the design not much can be done about that. Purist automotive type will fill an oil filter so the air bubble is smaller at oil/filter change time if possible. In any case there will be a reserve of oil for the cam lobes in the pockets in the head until another shot of clean oil gets there. The rest of the friction points (rocker arms/shafts and cam baring surfaces) would have a good coating of oil and normally be OK for a short period. In any case I believe this builds a good case for the higest quality oil you can afford in our Savage engines anyway. Until I see otherwide I will go with a diesel rated synthetic 10-40 or 15-40 weight. Max

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/27/07 at 19:29:01

Purists and some manuals also suggest that you disconnect the plug and crank it over a bit to lube things and fill the lines without the ignition.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/27/07 at 21:26:40

Oil drain back ....... I'm not sure I would rely on the oil pump to act as a check valve. If this were the case there would be no need for check valves in the oil system for any engine. I understand that the cam lobe bucket maintains an oil reservoir for the cam lobes at all times, but I'm more concerned about the cam "bearings".

Part of me is dying to chuck the head up in a mill to add cam bushings, rocker arm bushings, a pressure feed to the rocker shafts with exit holes to flood the bushings, and a check valve even if I need to use an external oil line. Just daydreaming for now.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/27/07 at 23:26:27

borne2fly wrote:

Now, I've lost the original reason for this post.

Good luck :P

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/28/07 at 19:41:24

I was interested to find out if anyone had installed a check valve in the lubrication system to the cylinder head. With all the forces acting on the cam bearing surfaces it seems reasonable to insure that pressurized oil is available immediately after the engine starts, especially since there are no replaceable cam bearings as in many other engines.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/28/07 at 19:59:14

borne2fly wrote:

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

In this case, since it ain't been broke in 21 years, there's no need to fix it.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/28/07 at 22:56:32

Yes indeed.
Originally I was under the impression that the lengthy oil path to the cylinder head was responsible for cam seizures. Fortunately this appears to be a rare thing. But a check valve in just a such a path is just one of several differences between an engine that will run 50K miles and one that will run 100K. I'd kinda like to see how long the little beast can be made to last.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 03:29:04

I installed a "pre-oiler" on my RV because it sits unused for long periods of time. Simple concept, just tap into a pressure line (preferably after the oil filter so you catch "clean" oil), add a valve and a container that will hold oil at about 100 psi. First startup, open the valve and start the engine wait a minute or two and close the valve then shutoff the engine. Check the oil level and add to bring up to "normal". Then, just open the valve before you start and if you have a pressure gauge, you'll see the oil pressure before you start. Now, just start it up, and close the valve before shutdown and you're ready for the next start. A system like this could be added to the savage on the front oil pressure port where some of us have tapped in for the oil cooler. Then you'd only have to start-up without oil pressure whenever you change oil. Some test results show an 80% reduction in engine wear when an engine is consistently started under oil pressure.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Kropatchek on 05/29/07 at 07:29:32

Greg_650 wrote:

Purists and some manuals also suggest that you disconnect the plug and crank it over a bit to lube things and fill the lines without the ignition.

NO Purists, just common sence and standard practice for everyone involved in (re)building engines.

Crank the engine over untill the lowoil pressure light is OUT

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/29/07 at 07:47:51

Kropatchek wrote:

NO Purists, just common sence and standard practice for everyone involved in (re)building engines.

Crank the engine over untill the lowoil pressure light is OUT

WAIT!!!!

You have a low pressure oil light? Is that what the blank space on our speedo is supposed to be?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Reelthing on 05/29/07 at 07:49:09

I do that every time I start either one of LS650s..... wait where was that light again

(gues we could wire a pressure switch to the side stand down light/blank on US bikes)

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/29/07 at 08:13:06

Yeah...European models had light switches. What else do they have?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/29/07 at 10:59:06

The oil pressure light tells you that the oil pump is pumping. It doesn't tell you if and when the oil is reaching the camshaft. Apparently on this machine that can be quite a delay.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by Greg_650 on 05/29/07 at 11:10:21

Is there some kind of virus going around?

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/29/07 at 11:10:41

barry68v10 ......

I like that auxiliary oil system you have. Excellent idea! I especially like that it pressurizes the entire engine before anything starts to rotate.

In the past I've rotated rebuilt engines to prime the oil system and have always pulled the spark plugs to unload the rod bearings until the pressure was up, but there was no way to unload the cam. It simply had to live with assembly lube until the oil got there, and that always bugged me. Some engines allow you to spin the oil pump all by itself, and that sort of mimmicks what your system does. Now that I think of it, maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to install an auxiliary electric oil pump that does the same thing. This is sounding better all the time. Hmmm.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by verslagen1 on 05/29/07 at 11:27:05

That pressure port is direct from the oil pump. Wouldn't you need to install a check valve for the oil to flow into the engine and tranny? Also would be a nice place to get extra volume.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/29/07 at 11:35:37

verslagen1 ....

Yes, I think a check valve would be required.

I was thinking of using an electric pump only momentarily to prime everything, but I don't see why it couldn't run all the time.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 11:43:22

The drawback of an extra oil pump is more moving parts and more expense for decreased reliability. All of the electric oil pumps I found that would be suitable cost $200+ and won't handle the abuse my system will handle. My system can easily be made for around $30-$50, and is proven to work nearly indefinitely. You can pre-pressurize my system if you want to. Just take out the standard air valve, fill with oil, replace valve and pressurize with a standard air pump. I can regulate pressure and the amount of oil that resides in the tank. An oil pump has several failure modes, a pressurized canister can only fail if it springs a leak but it experiences no wear except for the valve. I have an electric valve that allows flow into the tank anytime but only releases pressure when actuated. The only thing that's really needed is a manual ball-valve. The only real drawback of an air-pressurized system is over time, the air will disipate by infuzing thru the oil. Eventually all the air will be displaced with oil and the pressurizing effect stops. Therefore, everytime I change the oil, I completely purge the system of oil with an air pump.

Here's an example to look at to get the creative juices flowing: http://www.atk-engines.com/oiler.pdf

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 11:49:13

Quote:

Yes, I think a check valve would be required.

I've struggle with this issue myself and here's my conclusion...a check valve is a "nice-to-have" but not completely necessary. The electric check valve was the most expensive part of my system, and the least reliable, although more reliable than an electric pump. A ball-valve will work as long as you close it BEFORE engine shutdown. It's best to capture cool oil in a pressurized system to maximize oil pressure during startup, so you could open the valve, start the engine, then close the valve after 30 seconds to 5 minutes of operation. Then you're ready for the next start.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 11:55:31

Quote:

That pressure port is direct from the oil pump. Wouldn't you need to install a check valve for the oil to flow into the engine and tranny?

Verslagen, are you refering to the oil plug in the front bottom of the case? If so, yes it does come directly from the oil pump, and no I don't think you'd need to do much to ensure oil flows to the head. The oil pump is mechanically driven and will resist (not completely stop) oil flowing back thru it. This will require a little extra oil to flow to ensure oil to the head, but that's the same principle my system works on. After my RV has sat for a few months, it may take 30 seconds or so for the oil to completely pressurize the system, but my oil pressure gauge always reads 40 psi or greater before I crank it over. I'm tapped into my system right after the oil pump as well.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by vroom1776 on 05/29/07 at 12:01:19

you guys are all nuts. you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't really exist. again, how many camshaft seizures have we seen (on a bike with enough oil that was properly warmed up)? less than 10. how long has the bike been in production? 21 years. hell, there was one person on here (link (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1158030160;start=0#0)) who had found that his oil pump was essentially installed backwards by the previous owner. ~~he put it back in the right way and the bike ran fine.~~ he replaced the cam, the rocker arms, cam chain, guides, & plunger, and it ran fine. the cam never seized.

keep the oil level proper, keep the oil fresh, keep the oil filter clean, keep the idle at spec, and let it warm up before you run the nuts out of it and all will be well. oh, and if you split the cases, make sure you don't clog the oil paths.

or is it fix it till it's broke?

god, now I sound like greg :P

and now I'll offer a possible simple solution: get an aftermarket oil pump that has a higher PSI rating at low rpms. of course, you have to split the case...

now, the whole cam chain deal... that's a real problem.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 12:09:49

Vroom, I didn't put a pre-oiler on my BRAND NEW RV because it was "broken" in any way. I did it because I spent a fair amount of $ on it and want to keep it for a long, long time. It is proven that up to 80% of engine wear occurs from startup in ANY internal combustion engine. If you could be sure you'd double the life of an engine, would you do it? The obvious answer is "no" if you know the engine will last as long as you want to keep the vehicle. But if you wanted a nominal 50,000 mile Savage engine to last 100,000+ miles, I'd say this is a really good way to do it. That's why I put one on my RV. I do like to "fix" things to a certain extent, but my real passion is "improving" things. One of the reasons I like this site... ;D

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 12:12:09

And I agree with you, the camchain thing NEEDS to be fixed/improved. I think the slavy/verslagen...verslavy...whatever mod is the best idea I've seen on that yet. That's what I'll do to mine when I make it in there.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by vroom1776 on 05/29/07 at 12:22:21

barry68v10 wrote:

how much $$$ are you going to put into a $4500 bike?

(I'll be willing to spend $1k on going faster, and $3k on a kickstart/magneto setup, but that's a whole 'nother issue), but on a problem that doesn't exist? $0

there have been 100k mile savages.

another simple solution is to get the the cam, oh god, what was it, teflon or ceramic coated. the ceramic pisses heat away, basically, and the teflon is basically frictionless. maybe lancer can comment on this.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by barry68v10 on 05/29/07 at 12:47:08

Quote:

how much $$$ are you going to put into a $4500 bike?

Exactly! That's a great question. Which is why I think $30-50 COULD be worth it if it weren't too big or inconvenient, but I don't like the idea of a $200+ electric oil pump.

That's also why I made my own system, I wasn't willing to spend what the systems out there cost but the theory behind the idea was sound.

Title: Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Post by borne2fly on 05/29/07 at 14:55:09

>> .... how much $$$ are you going to put into a $4500 bike?

For me it's not about the $4500. It's a hobby and a passion, I am an eternal tinkerer. While I might try out some of my wild ideas on my own machine I am not suggesting anyone else try it on theirs.