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Message started by vroom1776 on 05/18/07 at 06:22:01

Title: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by vroom1776 on 05/18/07 at 06:22:01

Hey all,

Got a mechanic's stethoscope!

So listening ont he RH side of the case, I can clearly hear a lot of sliding, some ticking. Ticking doesn't seem to go away as rpm increases.

What the heck am I really listening for anyway?

At any rate, I'm gonna get some new gaskets and do slavy's etal tensioner mod.

V

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/18/07 at 06:47:22

Yeah, I picked one up for $1.99 at Harbor Freight last year. I listened to mine and didn't notice anything disturbing. I only have 9K miles on mine and no odd noises yet. However, I'm going to implement the Slavy/Verslagen1 mod (along with new clutch springs) at an upcoming oil change this summer.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by Greg_650 on 05/19/07 at 04:58:03

vroom1776 wrote:

Hey all,

Got a mechanic's stethoscope!

So listening ont he RH side of the case, I can clearly hear a lot of sliding, some ticking. Ticking doesn't seem to go away as rpm increases.

V

Why should ticking go away? Did it speed up or slow down? Did you hear any spinning, whirring, and splashing?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/19/07 at 08:09:56

I got one of my wife's retired stethoscopes & pulled the business end out & poked a jewelers screwdriver in it for a probe. I listened all around the head & down by the cam chain. I could hear sliding sounds down there. I don't know about splashes, not discernable. Maybe if I overfill it with oil I could, but that oil system doesnt seem like such a high flow as to be making splahes, more a good Oooze than a wave of oil I guess.

Ticking is different in different places, natch, I am gonna rerun th valves now that I have seen a guy who has done literally thousands of them &he let me "Drag" the feeler gauge after he adjusted the valves on a Guzzi. They are so easy to get to he uses a 1 foot long set & slips them in like a knife, slicing in, then slips them on & they drag pretty hard. Gotta put a couple of pounds of tug on it to drag it thru there. BUT, the shape of the area being measured is different & I dont know how that affects the drag. OUr adjuster is a smaller area than the top of the valve stem, the Guzzi rocker covers the valve stem completely. I think there is more surface area dragging on the Guzzi measurement than the Suzi. Now, HOW would that affect the amount of drag on the feeler gauge at any given setting? Any? Some? Detectable? Hekk,, I dunno. I am gonna set mine so that I can Drag the feeler, but can't Push it. If a guy can push a .005 piece O steel thru a slot, it's not very tight.
So far, the stethoscope thing has been fun, but not particularly revealing. I will continue to listen occasionally, if something starts making a racket, maybe I will find it before it becomes a real issue.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by slavy on 05/19/07 at 22:24:53

First- about the drag- You can not expect to have the same drag in different bikes, because You are dealing with different valve springs. If You try to get strong drag when working on generator/for an example/ You will never get it- the springs are too weak and the valves will stay open.
second- about the cam chain noise- Usually the cam chain noise is light at idle, it increases and gets louder at 2.5-4 K RPM and after that disapears. If certain noise is there the same and all the time, it is not the cam chain.
Instead stethoscope, You can use a long screwdriver /metal toward the engine, not in the ear ;)/

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by verslagen1 on 05/19/07 at 22:40:04

Slavy, do you suppose the reason for the high rev to be quiet cause the chain will float on the sprockets due to centrifical force and will take up all slack?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by slavy on 05/20/07 at 04:28:39

Yes,
This is my explanation about quieting at high RPM.
Plus - we can imagine that the bike is working "on pulses"- We have one wotking stroke + 3 other, so do we feel it or not, but the crank shaft speeds up and slows down. This makes the cam chain to "slap". At high RPM the "pulses" are so close, that the chain doesn't have time to "slap" a lot.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by Greg_650 on 05/20/07 at 06:42:07

Is everyone trying to find a problem in the engine? I think that everyone is brainstorming too much.

Geez, all Vroom did was buy a stethoscope and ask a question about the the ticking sound...to which I might add, IS NORMAL. Go out and listen to your car (with the hood up, too). You'll hear a ticking sound there. It might be valves or fuel injectors, but it is normal.

There is always a ticking sound. It's called valve lash. It will be louder in some places than others. If you don't have any sound then you might really have a problem.

Oh, and my comment about "splashing" was intended as a joke. No need to drain the gas out of the crankcase yet.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by youzguyz on 09/14/07 at 13:10:14

vroom1776 wrote:

vroom (or anyone else who has listened to a tensioner going south),
Was the ticking about every half second at idle? Rate increases a little bit then dissapears as you throttle up? (Can't really tell, maybe the rest of the engine noise is drowning it out)

That's what I'm hearing from mine. I'm pretty sure it's coming from behind the the clutch cover, I just haven't had time to steal a stethoscope from the wife and do a good check.
What kinda threw me off is it sounded like the noise kept going after I shut the engine off, as it makes almost the exact same sound as the exhaust cooling.

I have the VerSlavy tensioner on the way, a gasket on order, and I'm due for an oil change anyway. I hate to lose a nice weekend waiting on parts. Tempted to just ride it anyway. Or open the cover to see how bad it is and decide from there.

This machine has less than 9k on it.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by Savage_Rob on 09/14/07 at 13:33:50

Mine wasn't bad yet so I can't tell you for sure how it sounds but at 9700 miles, the tensioner had only a few millimeters of travel to go before it would have begun to elongate and then come loose. I installed the VerSlavy modded tensioner, new clutch springs (while I was in there) and a new gasket and closed her back up.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by verslagen1 on 09/14/07 at 14:07:46

youzguyz wrote:

Or open the cover to see how bad it is and decide from there.

I replaced my gasket the first time I had it open. Since then I've openned it twice and reused the gasket. Cleaned it with a little acetone, reapplied gasket sealer around the oil path on top and no leaks that I can see anyway.

Also did another without replacing the gasket from the get go, and no reports of it leaking.

I wouldn't hesitate unless you got no other means of transportation. Your confidence in your machine is more important IMHO.

If you can get the cover off with out tearing the gasket, then you're good to go. The tips I've gotten are to remove all the screws and pop the seal by turning the clutch lever. There's a little ledge on the front of the cover too. use a big screwdriver to pry off the cover slowly and evenly. Once you've sepparated the cover from the case about an 1/8", stop check around make sure it's stuck all to the same side otherwise you'll tear it in 2. ;D

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/15/07 at 22:00:15

Gasket sealer will repair a tear. Just have to be careful with the application. Dont plug anything off, get a load in the oil,, use the Ol Noggin.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by rokrover on 09/17/07 at 07:39:33

Has anyone thought of having a little sight glass (like oil-level window) in the side case to visually check the chain plunger extension without removal of the cover? Not sure where it could be located, and would entail machine work. I had an aftermarket sight glass on my Ducati bevel-gear drive cover as a crude visual check oil was pumping up. It had its own holder with O-ring that was held on with a bunch of small set screws. An alternative would be a simple threaded inspection plug. You don't need to check that often.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by Savage_Greg on 09/17/07 at 08:35:26

rokrover wrote:

Maybe this photo from my CD will explain the answer...the sight glass might have to go right in the reinforced area for the clutch actuator.

The inside isn't quite as one might think :P

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Clutch_Cover.jpg

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by verslagen1 on 09/17/07 at 08:49:58

The best place for it is right where the oil filter is.

When I push the adjuster forward 16mm it struck the center boss of the oil filter cavity. So the stock position is just to the right of that.

So if you can mount an external filter and reroute the ports to the existing filter, just hollow out the back and you'd have it made as it would allready have an access port.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/17/07 at 22:09:04

Seems like wiring it to make the neutral light come on would be the easy way. IF I remember all the stuff I looked at when i was in there.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by youzguyz on 09/18/07 at 05:13:36

Forgot to update on this.. but it's not much of an update.
The loud "ticking" noise IS the muffler, and not the tensioner, and that is the good thing. So, I rode the weekend.
I'm not sure where in the muffler (Sportster) that noise is coming from (or if I should care). I'll check into it when I pull the exhaust.
VerSlagen tensioner is in, Clymers is in, got the tools I'll need. Waiting on gasket (just in case) before I do the tensioner, spark plug, access door, valves, speedo buzz, etc.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Rattle & Stethoscope
Post by T-Mack1 on 09/18/07 at 06:02:51

Ticking noises from exhaust system is one of the signs of an exhaust leak. Lots of people redo their valves and get flustrated when the noise doesn't go away.