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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> any suggestions? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1177197867 Message started by streece on 04/21/07 at 16:24:27 |
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Title: any suggestions? Post by streece on 04/21/07 at 16:24:27 i have a 2000 model with screamin eagle exhaust, 155 main jet and a 55 pilot. has been running fine, maybe a little on the rich side. i rode 200 miles today and at cold start it runs fine with the choke on the first click, after it is warm it runs fine as well. my problem is: after i have gone for a long distance and shut the engine down and start it back up after a few minutes then it just barley idles and sometimes dies. but once it runs for a minute it is back to normal. I have noticed if i pull the choke back to the first click in this situation it idles back up. Any suggestions on this one? |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Trippah on 04/21/07 at 16:54:25 Lets see if I get this corectly, you startthe bike with the choke pulled out, you ride off =all is fine- at some point you push the choke in, still okay, keep on riding. You stop,and shut down. Come back 5 minutes later, and without pulling out the choke, you have trouble restarting. You then pull it out a notch and she starts fine..are you sure you're on the rich side generally since the choke is an enrichening circuit and your situation would make more sense if you were running a litttle lean... Oh, what was the temp etc ...cause over 45 degrees you probably shouldn't need a choke at startup, or otherwise. (I think thatsa bout the temp where I don't touch the choke). And about the changing idle speed, hopefully you set it when the bike as at operating temp, cause the choke seems to increase the idle speed, so when warmed up and no choke, your idle speed migh get a bit slow. NOW, some one who actually knows about this stuff, please jump in. :D |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by streece on 04/21/07 at 17:11:04 yes...starts up with the choke..turn off choke a mile or so later...runs fine...idles at around 1000-1200 rpm (just listening by ear) after warm up. now after the 5 minute shut down it will start right back up, just does not want to idle and sometimes dies i have to give it gas to keep it alive . then when you ride it down the road a mile it idles fine ??? i say it is running rich because i have a small amount of black soot in the end of my muffler. today the temp. was 77 degrees. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 07:09:20 I'd also lower that main jet back to a 152.5. Yours is too big for that exhaust. That's why you have black smoke, soot, and probably a dirty plug too. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 07:27:38 But while we're on the subject... Why does it seem that everyone just goes straight up to a 155 main jet when they change the exhaust? Where is everyone getting this idea, anyway? I mean...I've got a 157.5 and a 160 in my tool box. Should I just slap one in there on the misguided notion that "bigger is better"? I increased my main jet size slowly, one jet at a time. I tried running a 157.5 but after a good ride, my brake arm was black. Back down to a 155 is where I went. From what I've read in this forum...most of the bikes with an exhaust modification are running too rich. Most everyone's signature line lists a 155 main....and yet, I keep hearing people say that theirs "might be a little rich". Or have a "little black smoke". My spouse has more disks in her Trapp (14) than most everyone but she runs strong with a 152.5. Stinger has 8 disks and he is running happily with a 147.5. And both those bikes have a stock pilot....and no bluing too. Come on Savages. Black smoke is no better than blue chrome. If you have smoke, decrease the jet size. ...just my 1 cent... |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by azjay on 04/22/07 at 07:39:05 a little rich is better than a little lean, especially if you ride in hotter climates. perhaps a certain amount of over compensation for the savages factory lean condition exists too, although maybe not optimum, it reduces the potential to ventilate a piston. (JMO) we're in the 90* f.degs now, headed for the 100+* f.degs for the next 100 plus days. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 07:49:50 I see your signature line, and that seems more correct. I didn't say lean was better. I said clear is better. What I also said was, why does everyone take the direct route to a 155? Just because the early Savages had it? Shoot, I'm not the greatest mechanic around, but I don't just pick one main jet and figure it to be good to go either. Who came up with the equation that states that "new exhaust = 155 main jet"? BTW - I know Arizona is hot, but we used to live in the Carolinas, and moving to the NW didn't change our jetting either. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by hutch on 04/22/07 at 07:51:01 I have the jardine exhaust and went to the 147.5. The Jardine comes with the inside painted black??? After a few miles it started getting lighter and lighter, plus the backfires. I went to a 155 and 55 pilot and now have a nice dark grey in the pipe and no more pop with the 55 pilot. I still have full white spacer, due to no hesitation in full throttle twists, even after changing to the taller gearing. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by PA KID on 04/22/07 at 07:56:09 I also run a Jardine pipe on my 04 with 155 main an 55 pilot. Works perfectly.. ;D |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by barry68v10 on 04/22/07 at 07:58:14 I agree with azjay from the aspect that a rich condition WILL protect an engine in hot weather, but if the smoke and fouling is as bad as Greg says, I would venture that a little rich has migrated to really rich. In Streece's case, it sounds to me like there may be some vapor-lock concerns. I'd be concerned that the gas is too hot entering the intake path and boiling before it hits the cylinder due to heat soak will the bike is off/not moving. This will cause the same kind of symptoms. When this happens, an even richer condition will overcome the boiling gas problem, allowing the bike to start. I've never experienced this with my Savage, but had a truck that would do that all the time. Knew that insulating the carb float bowl from the engine would have fixed it, but never bothered to do that because it was easy to overcome with the choke. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 08:04:06 And besides....The Rubber Side Down section is constantly filled with questions about bikes with starting and idling issues. Of that group, the majority have a modified exhaust. Of that group, the majority have a 155 main jet and 55 pilot. Coincidence? I think so. What do new bike owners complain about? Backfires. What do they complain about after they fix the backfires? Idling, stalling, black smoke and dirty plugs.... I also think that people shouldn't just assume that a Harley exhaust is that much freer flowing. Especially with a stock header. Got to remember that in most cases, one HD cylinder is the less than or equal to ours anyway. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by barry68v10 on 04/22/07 at 08:09:33 Greg, would you agree that a main jet change won't affect starting and idling performance? |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 08:09:38 Okay. That's my last rant. I knew everyone would get their back up and get all defensive without actually looking at the issue. After all, no one want to admit they might be over compensating. That's much harder than changing a jet. My engine work proves what I state. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 08:10:33 barry68v10 wrote:
Yes, I agree. It won't until you dirty your plug and fill the head with carbon. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by barry68v10 on 04/22/07 at 08:11:58 Quote:
What exactly are we talkin' about here, Greg? ;) |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by barry68v10 on 04/22/07 at 08:16:47 Quote:
Agreed! There, we're in violent agreement. ;D My question is, how did the first generation of Savages get by with a 155 main jet? Did they have the same carbon and fouling problems? |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by verslagen1 on 04/22/07 at 09:06:46 I have stock muffler, 145 jet, no soot, last check of the spark plug was tan and white insulator, black on the inside and bottom. No starting issue except on real cold mornings (CA how cold can that be?) and I think that was the battery as I replaced battery and don't have issue anymore. 50+mpg. My complaint? slow idle in the morn, fast idle in the evening. 1200 vs 1500. Mornings are start with choke, choke in one click and idle for awhile. If its idling slow, adjust. Drive a mile and push choke in. Stop get gas restart check idle speed. Evenings I don't need any choke. But need to idle down. Especially on a hot afternoon. ;D |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by justin_o_guy on 04/22/07 at 09:45:14 I went to the 155 from a 150 not cuz I figured it needed it, but cuz when I got the jets, 150, 155 & 157.5, they didnt have a 152.5. I am kinda thinkin thats the next step, plug was a bit sooty on the edge & a bit darker than I (think) I want it on the ceramic. I dont see me needing the 157.5 while it has the stock piston in it. You spose with a single wall headr & fatter piston along with this lumpier cam it's gonna need a 157.5? Heck, no matter. I will trade the shop the 150 for the 152.5 & keep the bigger ones in the toolbox till the mods are all finished. Hmm, sounds like I am gonna have em a long time.. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 11:19:44 barry68v10 wrote:
I'm not sure...I don't know what the inner working of the exhaust might have been like. Has anyone measured one? I've got the numbers for a '00. BUT (and I feel this is a very big point)...if you look at the specs for the '86 - '88 carb, EVERYTHING was different. From the LARGER throttle valve to BOTH of the pilot air jets. Even the jet needle had a different taper. It might have said BS40 on the outside, but the insides were really different. So, with that in mind, why would anyone think that changing one jet on a later model would make them equal? For a comparison, there is a jetting list in the Tech section. I put it there a couple years ago. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by barry68v10 on 04/22/07 at 12:44:38 I didn't realize the two generations of carbs were so different. I guess assuming the two SHOULD have the same size main jet really does assume way too much... |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/07 at 13:21:30 barry68v10 wrote:
That's all I try to get people to realize. And it would be interesting if anyone has a stock '86 muffler, and see what size "orifices" it has... The stock '01 muffler outlet is .800" or 20.32 mm :) |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by tuxedo on 04/22/07 at 13:34:25 I have a bone stock 86 carb on my bike with a Cherry Bomb glass pack muffler. I'm having to search around for a smaller main jet because I'm freaking tired of cleaning plugs. I'm really good at changing them now, though. The 155 main in that BS40, even with a freer exhaust, is still running rich. I've taken the airbox door off in an attempt to get it to lean up, to no avail. I totally agree with Greg on this. Running rich is only occasionally OK(like right before you change the air filter). Running right is best. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by LANCER on 04/22/07 at 13:51:05 When changing stuff around that may require a jetting change I work my way one jet size at a time, checking throttle response in the appropriate ranges and then checking the plug and muffler. I try to do 3 or 4 test runs before making one jet change to be sure...time allowing. For the main jet, WOT in 3rd or 4th gear will tell you if it is too rich by bogging down. |
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Title: Re: any suggestions? Post by justin_o_guy on 04/22/07 at 14:10:16 By boggong down at what speed? 30 & then ram the throttle to it? Those of us,, well, ME,I need specifics, cuz I am really not a good tuner. I can put something together & get 80% of the output available. Others can wring the thing out & make it put out all there is, I am just not that good a mechanic, tho I am really trying to learn. |
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