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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Gasohol Ready? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1176583308 Message started by Savage_Rob on 04/14/07 at 13:41:48 |
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Title: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 04/14/07 at 13:41:48 What would it take to make the LS650 e85 ready? Is it just the carb parts that would have a problem or elsewhere in the engine too? I am using an Amal Mk2 and I've seen where certain parts are available for it for bikes running "alcohol". I'm not sure it's something I'd want to pursue anyway but I might if it's nothing more than a carb rebuild. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by barry68v10 on 04/14/07 at 14:31:35 No rubber gas lines, no rubber gaskets in gas tank, i.e. gas cap, petc0ck seal, etc. I think with the petc0ck conversion and nitrile gaskets you'd be ok there. Inside the carb, I'm not familiar enough with the make up, but any rubber/softer oil based product will have to go, which there may not be any. With such a conversion, you'd be perfectly safe running 10.5-11:1 compression. You could boost compression and cooling effect even more by running straight ethanol (and lower cost fuel, about 80% is fine.) With no timing/compression mods your fuel economy will suffer, but 2 points extra compression would bring that back, however you'd be unable to run pump gasoline if you optimized for ethanol. One main change that would need to be made in the carb is much richer jetting. You need approximately 10-15% richer jetting, but Lancer's carb tuning steps would dial you in perfectly. If your currently running a 150 main, I'd suggest starting with a 165 and tune from there. Although maybe a 160 would work fine with E85. I tried to be comprehensive here, but actual changes may be significantly less involved. You'd probably be ok just changing out the fuel line and re-jetting. As other gaskets dissolve over time, they could be replaced... Hope this helps. ;D |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by barry68v10 on 04/14/07 at 14:33:57 Oh, to answer the MAIN part of your question... You don't NEED to rebuild any engine parts to run E85, only to run it at peak efficiency. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 04/14/07 at 20:53:07 Thanks for the input. Yeah, I'd already thought about fuel lines and gaskets dealing directly with fuel, as well as certain carb parts. I'm running an Amal Mk2 carb and its jet sizes are wholly different than those of the Mikuni but I get the point. I hadn't thought about rejetting but it makes perfect sense. I don't think I want to alter compression though I may consider one of Lancer's performance cams. I'd like to keep it as multi-fuel as possible. It's easy enough to swap jets in this carb. I doubt I'd even bother with a dial-a-jet but it's a thought. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 04/16/07 at 05:30:53 Does everyone else pretty much agree with that? The rubber gaskets on the petc0ck and gas cap, the fuel line (and I would do the vacuum line too), parts of the carb (including larger jets) are pretty much all that's necessary to be able to run e85? That would enable me to run the everyday stuff that is "up to 10% ethanol" and, if I wanted, e85 with a rejet/retune (which takes like 15 minutes). I'm thinking I also need to swap out my plastic inline fuel filter for a glass or aluminum version. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Reelthing on 04/16/07 at 06:33:44 For sure don't run it without an inline filter - It wouldn't suprise me to see unexpect bits erode - like the rubber tip of the float needle. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 04/16/07 at 10:23:17 There is a fuel filter in the Amal Mk2 itself and it's one of the parts included in the alcohol conversion kit. I intend to get a separate inline version that is alcohol tolerant to replace the inline filter I currently use. I think I should probably also look at replacing the rubber mounting flange that attaches the carb to the cylinder head. All of this is assuming I decide to actually do this. One article I've found is below. It's an old article but I think the idea for the fuel preheater is a thing of beauty because of its simplicity. Another is general stuff on auto engine conversion. Cornfed Cruiser (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1981-01-01/Cornfed-Cruiser.aspx) Converting your engine (http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html) |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by barry68v10 on 04/16/07 at 16:26:34 Rob, I'm glad you posted the conversion link. I'll take this time to tell EVERYONE... If you make your own fuel out of alcohol, don't waste your time and money making 200 proof alcohol! There's no good reason to mix alcohol and gasoline. An engine can easily be converted to run on 140-170 proof alcohol with no problem. And like I said before, it will have higher octane, and run cooler than if you mix it with gasoline. Think of it as FREE WATER INJECTION. Anybody remember the glory days of water injected hot rods? ;D Back then, anyone could make enough power to blow their engine up ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by barry68v10 on 04/16/07 at 16:30:02 The first link is good too! As I've said before, propane, natural gas, and alcohol are all far superior internal combustion engine fuels to gasoline! The only advantage gasoline has is storage capacity, it has the most BTU's per gallon. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 04/17/07 at 11:36:30 barry68v10 wrote:
Aye. From what I've been reading, I can expect it to get about 10%-15% less mileage but cost about 25% less. I haven't checked the prices in my area but if I convert mine, I could still run gasoline also. I basically have to change the jets. I don't think the preheater element would be a problem with gas but it would be simple enough to bypass it. The main problem would be the decreased range on a tankful of alcohol but in town that's not really a problem. At this point I'm down to two things. The first is that I think I might be advised to use a tank coating to inhibit potential rust caused by the moisture in alcohol. The second is my major roadblock; the plastic parts and diaphragm of the petc0ck. I'm not quite sure how to handle that except possibly an entirely new petc0ck. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by K1200LTryder on 04/17/07 at 11:43:42 Aint putting any of that crap in ANY of my bikes. Period. We had a test car at work here, all setup for E85. No power, and horrible fuel economy. Smoked all the time, and the engine failed at 14,000 miles. I'll stick to 93 octane, use it in all my bikes, and never had any sort of fuel related issue. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by barry68v10 on 04/17/07 at 17:11:51 Quote:
Filling the crankcase with oil can solve that problem :P Bottom line is, those two facts have nothing to do with each other (car converted to ethanol vs. no power, horrible economy, smoke.) By ALL accounts alcohol burns cleaner, provides smoother power and can produce lots more power if you have the CR to use it. Did I mention Dragsters and other race applications use alcohol? Also, vehicles in Brazil (and other countries) use it (alcohol) and get fairly long life out of their engines despite lack of the regular mnx most of our cars enjoy in the US and Europe. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by barry68v10 on 04/17/07 at 17:12:50 Other than that LTrider, use what works for you ;) |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 06/03/07 at 00:25:43 At this point, I am planning on slowly making the necessary changes to my Savage to make her a "flex-fuel" vehicle. Then I'll be able to run any combination of ethanol and/or gasoline. While ethanol provides a cleaner burning, cooler running engine with lower emissions, the downsides are that you get less mileage and the jetting has to change because alcohol needs to be a richer mix. Most flex-fuel vehicles use electronic sensors and fuel injection to deal with mixture changes as fuels vary. I plan to try to use a Dial-A-Jet to allow me to vary jetting for different mixes instead of manually swapping main jets. It's still manual but faster and easier than jet swapping each time I switch fuels. If that doesn't work, I'll just have to go the manual route if I change fuels. A TourTank is part of the plan because of the decreased mileage of alcohol. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Reelthing on 06/03/07 at 01:15:01 Savage_Rob wrote:
methanol or ethanol? rather big difference |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 06/03/07 at 01:56:17 Reelthing wrote:
Ethanol. Sorry, my bad. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/03/07 at 05:45:49 More than one Dial-A-Jet may be required. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by justin_o_guy on 06/03/07 at 05:47:34 I am oout of my element here, but didn't notice the diaphragme on the slide mentioned. Will it handle the exposure to ethanol? It it getting exposed enough to bother it? There are the 2 small holes in the bottom of the slide next to the needle.Last time I took mine apart it was kinda damp up there in the diaphragme, so something can get there. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 06/03/07 at 09:30:56 I've been looking at the differences between a 100% gasoline/petrol ready 38mm Amal Mk2 and a 100% alcohol ready version. Besides the plastic/rubber parts that change, the main, pilot and needle jets all change too. I'm not sure how much the other two are altered byt the main goes from a #320 to a #800. Now, this compares carbs built for a Royal Enfield, but I take it a good guide. Note that the sizing isn't linear between the 300 series and the 800 series either. I believe I have a #330 in mine now but I'm not positive. The Dial-A-Jet installation instructions state that reducing the main jet by 2 to 3 sizes should result in a setup that puts you in the center setting of the dial. I'm wanting to get it so that the installed main puts me at the lean end. That would give me the rest of the range to richen it for running e85. Regarding the diaphragm, the Amal Mk2 doesn't have one. The only diaphragm in the mix is the one in the petc0ck. For that, I have a used petc0ck already converted so that it doesn't use vacuum any longer. I'll ensure none of the original rubber remains in it and I'll replace the plastic tubes with copper or brass. At this point, one of the parts I still (probably) need to replace is the rubber mounting flange that connects the carb to the cylinder head. Amal has a simple one available but it doesn't bolt up. It's just a short tube. I may need to find/make a metal one and use the alcohol ready tube between. I haven't bought the alcohol conversion kit yet and if I run into too many show-stoppers, I may not. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by justin_o_guy on 06/03/07 at 09:57:06 Thanks for the schooling. I really havent followed alcohol in fueal much. All I know is that it knocks the hose off the fuel pump in the tank on Moto Guzzis after a short exposure time. like a couple O months. So, when they start putting that crud in the gas everywhere, how will it affect the carb on the Suzuki? If you werent trying to make it run on 100% ethanol, would it need all these mods? It would seem so to me, since exposure to something that destroys something at 100% solution, would only destroy it slower at 20%. BUt, some things are counterintuitive. Others just dont make sense. |
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Title: Re: Gasohol Ready? Post by Savage_Rob on 06/03/07 at 10:19:46 Supposedly 10% is fine for all of our vehicles now. Just about every gas pump I find says that it may contain up to 10% ethanol. I'm trying to make mine compatible with anything from the standard 10% ethanol/90% gasoline to the 85% ethanol/15% gasoline that's becoming increasingly available. If I should decide to ditch the project, I'll have a Dial-A-Jet and a TourTank. The TourTank should be great for extended range and I'm hoping the Dial-A-Jet will give me a bit better power delivery and mileage. |
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