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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Piston Group Buy /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1175481076 Message started by LesGolden on 04/01/07 at 19:31:16 |
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Title: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/01/07 at 19:31:16 100.79 Piston 19.49 Racing Rings 9.48 AW "Window Milling" of the inside of the skirt 15.48 Black Skirt Coat Similar to Hard Anodizing has Teflon Seal for prolonged life and decreased friction That comes to 145.24. We could spend more getting it lighter but that may decrease strength. We could get ceramic coating on the top of the piston for 20 something more, or we could just get the pistons and rings for 120 bucks. Since bigger is no more expensive I vote for doing 97mm. I'd like the window milling and coating and around 10-10.5 for compression. What do you guys think? Soon as we know what we want, i'll get final figures with shipping from ross and let everyone know! Hmm also i wonder if bore tech might give us a group rate if several of us wanted the same bore/hone size and carbide coating process.... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/01/07 at 20:51:34 I wonder just how hot an engine we can create before we start wiping out tranny parts. The engineers who designed the tranny had a pretty good idea what kinda horsepower the engine would be running thru those gears, bearings & shafts. I want to get as close as I can to that limit & still have a reasonably depandable machine. I can see the need for going to the chain. Once the engine is jacked up on power, ther's no reason to keep it geard so low. Maybe keeping it alive will require NOT taking off as hard as possible. Using the power more gently & using it for higher top end & not try to make a drag bike out of it. I would be interrested in getting a piston to stick on the shelf till it's time to do the top end. I would need to stop & think about the $$. Might just be able to do that if it's not too soon. I would naturally have to rely on the resident experts to decide on what piston & compression ratio would be a smart choice. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by wvhunter62 on 04/01/07 at 20:54:21 I'm in, 97mm, 10-10.5 comp. , AW, skirt treatment, and ceramic coating. How are we going to deal with shipping? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/01/07 at 21:00:20 Two folks for the same piston seems like a good enough start, I'll talk to ross tommorrow and see if we can't get each piston from the order shipped seperately and what they'll charge for it. I'll also see if we can each just pay them directly seperatly, i don't see why it should be a problem. I'll check it out tommorrow and then check in with more details. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/01/07 at 21:11:30 justin_o_guy wrote:
Transmission strength is a good point, i'm sure there will be some more wear, but more power almost always costs a little in longevity... definately seems like taller gearing (yeah, chain prolly) is in the future. wonder if there are any 6 speeds that could be forced to work... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by wvhunter62 on 04/01/07 at 21:46:46 The life of your tranny will largely depend on how aggressivley you apply power. If you hammer it at every chance you get your tranny will suffer, if you "roll" on the power(think smooth) the power increase will have little affect on tranny life. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 09:32:02 Ok guys, just got off the phone with Ross, really helpfull people by the way, and heres the skinny. Pins, rings, and pistons would be about 550 for 4. The motorcycle tech said we probably wouldn't notice a difference with skirt milling and there is decreased life with that. Coatings would raise the price a bit and again weren't recommended, he said he'd be happy to sell it too us, but unless we're pounding them with nitrous not really necessary. Bore size doesn't change price, they do all have to be the same piston, and if we have 20 or more the price will drop quite a bit. The compression could maybe get even higher than the 10-10.5 we were talking about, it's dependent on the clearance. If the 8mm deck height is accurate, we could go quite a bit higher. Still though, my vote is for 97mm with just over 10:1 compression, the price is roughly 137.50 each, this is supposed to be a high estimate the actuall cost may be lower. 97mm 10:1 or higher compression. Need at least 2 more people. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 04/03/07 at 09:39:35 no cash... but I'd like to get in on it... oh well... anything much over 10.5:1 or so would likely require stronger valve springs, and also, the head is aluminum... but then again, there are several v*1100s with Au heads running 12:1 CRs. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 09:45:13 I'll bet your right about the valve springs, anyone know if they could be shimmed if someone wanted to go even higher compression? Or do you just hafta get stronger springs? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/03/07 at 17:02:05 Is anyone concerned about detonation at 10:1? Or do you think 92 octane will control it? How much can we retard the ignition? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 04/03/07 at 17:14:39 You mean pinging or pre-detonation? I think we'll be okay on 92 or 93. With the stock CDI box, not at all. look up the "possibel ignition mod" thread, though. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 17:17:34 Plenty of vehicles run compression that high with pump gas, i think we'll be ok with 92. Hmm no timing adjustment... hmmm..... The spark plug may need to be colder... anyone know? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by barry68v10 on 04/03/07 at 18:26:18 With a 3.7" stroke and 8.5:1 compression this thing is set to run on 85-87 octane. I've been thinking about this today for some reason when I saw this thread. If you go to 9-9.5:1 you will likely need to run 89-90 octane. At around 10:1, 92-93 octane would be advisable. Anything over 10:1 and I wouldn't recommend pump gas anymore. Keep in mind that cams that stay open during the compression stroke will offset the extra compression and be more conducive to high RPM power output. This is just some theoretical "back of the napkin" calculations, but actual test data will take the final say. However, the actual test data may not account for extreme cases. What compression does Lancer run and what's the particulars on his cam? Anyone know? Lancer? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 18:29:59 I can get behind that logic, keeps us at the same figures too! Just need two more people! ::) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/03/07 at 18:44:27 Yes I mean detonation (pre-ignition) or pinging/knocking. I figured 92 should work but also thought it would be close. Doesn't head design have some affect on it? Also, you say no adjustment with a stock CDI box but why couldn't you slot the plate that holds the ignition pick up sensors? I wouln'd be against machining a new ignition rotor. (I will show my ignorance to the savage engine here assuming the ignition was designed the same as all the old GS's and GSX-R's!) I had been leaning more towards Lancers approach of machining the barrel deck but then you would also have to slot the cam sprocket to re-adjust the cam timing. This approach would solve that. As far as the buy I am on the fence. I am just geting ready to start my project and would like to go high comp but have alot of work ahead of that. Also, is the piston company working off our numbers for the new piston design or do they have stock factory specs they are working off of. I just want to make sure if I lay down the cash it will drop in and deliver as thought. Lastly, can someone explain to me why the valve springs would be in question for a high comp engine? They are opened positively with the cam and closed by the springs....why would the springs need to be stronger unless you were going to push the rev ceiling up? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/03/07 at 18:49:19 vroom1776 wrote:
Not to be a smart A... but gold heads? Au is gold...Al is aluminum ;D PS: can you explain why stronger valve springs? see my post right before this one. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 19:21:32 No need for stronger springs with just the higher compression. If using an aggresive cam with the highercompression you may need stronger springs to compensate for the cam (so much lift can wear stockers and cause flutter) I was just suggesting an answer to wanting stronger springs. Ross must be working from stock figures, they just ask about any mods we've made, (pistons should work fine with stock cam, better with regrind). I gave the 8mm deck clearance figure from our last piston post, and the fella seemed surprised, maybe that is not the stock clearance? i would like a positive measurement on this also before we order... anyone know the deck height for sure? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Greg_650 on 04/03/07 at 19:31:59 Let me ask a couple dumb questions... Does any of the skirt milling and lightening change any of the engine balance/counter-balance characteristics? I imagine that it does have some effect, but how much? Would it not be good to just get the piston to be the same weight as stock? Or is that already understood? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 19:36:49 the 4mm deck height seems more probable, i can't find the stock figures anywhere, (but then, i have no clymers). If that's the case we can still go 2-4mm heigher with the piston without entering the combustion chamber, with valve pockets cut down to within .03 of the original piston height at tdc we should be safe, and we'll definately be able to get to 10:1. I think the valve pockets raise the piston price by about 20 bucks. so with rings and pins about 157 a peice. That's getting a little steep but i'm still in.... hopefully that 8mm figure is correct.... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/03/07 at 19:42:28 Greg_650 wrote:
I think stock weight is the way to go. And i have no idea how strong an effect a lighter piston would have on balance... i do know that a lighter piston and a lighter crank would give a few more rpm.. but may very well rattle the bike apart... at least without working on the couterbalance somehow... that's getting a bit beyond my backyard mechanical ability.... :-/ I'll have to just lust after that 8000rpm redline and leave figuring out how to do it to someone else... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 04/03/07 at 20:15:48 yeah, Au is gold, Al is aluminum... :-[ and I get to put another :-[ as stronger valve springs are for agrerssive cams... (wasn't thinking, just typing...) stock springs should be fine for mild cams... oh here was my thought train: anything over 10.5:1 or so needs an aggressive cam to ge thte most out of it, then we'd need the stonger springs... now that makes sense. ::) and for what it's worth, my understanding is that stock weight pistons are the way to go if possible. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/04/07 at 18:03:01 [quote author=LesGolden link=board=RubberSideDown;num=1175481076;start=0#19 date=04/03/07 at 19:42:28] I think stock weight is the way to go. And i have no idea how strong an effect a lighter piston would have on balance... i do know that a lighter piston and a lighter crank would give a few more rpm.. but may very well rattle the bike apart... at least without working on the couterbalance somehow... I would expect the counterballancer to under counter the piston vibes by a good deal to keep the engine inertia down. I wuld be verey surprised to find the vibrations are the result of the counterballancer & not the piston. Meaning, if the piston could be lighter, I would expect a smoother engine. Next: Untill I know more about this piston & how it will work with the cam I am getting, I am just INTERRESTED. I want to make the bike run as well as I can & not go beyond its mechanical integrity. I dont want it breaking every week because I have stuck too many ponies into it. I wonder if the cam, along with a single walled header & a cleaned up exhast port, Supertrapp & jetted carb won't just about push the lower end & tranny to its limits the way I like to ride. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/04/07 at 19:03:15 We'll definately get everything figured out before an order, just looking for interest until then. If we can get 4 folks agreeing on the same numbers, looking to order within the next month or so we can figure out exactly what we need to do to the pistons to reach those goals. I'm ready as soon as we have deck height figures. 97mm 10:1 compression we need two more. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/08/07 at 16:37:11 Had to drag this back up, I'm open to suggestions for size and CR figures. How about the 97mm's with 9.5:1? Keep a similar torque curve, but should help open things up with some head work and a cam and carb.. still gotta get the deck height, gonna pull the head in a week or so, i'll check then. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 04/09/07 at 06:18:44 96mm 9.5:1 and I'll take 2 - wiseco makes 3 95mm/96mm/97mm - interchangable with the dr650 up through 1995 - the specs on the 4597MO9600 (96mm) with a +1 on compression is all I'd really be comfortable with in these road bikes |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/09/07 at 18:47:48 I would have to agree. I was out on a 10:1 compression. Too high for my comfort level. I would consider looking at a 9.5:1 if we can run the Lancer cam and clear the valves. As far as bore I am on the fence..would probably look at a 1mm over not knowing the exact status of my bore. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/10/07 at 08:29:24 96mm 9.5:1 and I'm in also. 96mm is boreing about .07 over, not real extreme with the thickness of our cylinder, we'll get about 1 horse per mm overbore, nothing serious, but worthwhile with changes in carb and cam. With the bore tech carbide coating i wouldn't worry much about longevity, as someone else on here mentioned, ceramic bores rarely need rebore or resleave work, the strength is pretty serious. The only concern left is valve clearance, but since the wiseco order was for 9.5:1 CR it must fit, we still need the numbers, but i'm sure it will work. There are three spoken for now, at leats 1 more person and i will make another call to ross to set up the order. Oh yeah, if we went with 95mm it comes to 666cc, make for a neat theme anyway.. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/10/07 at 09:38:48 LesGolden wrote:
A couple of things. I was able to measure my extra cyclinder this morning and the spare piston and it appears that the deck is indeed 4mm. There is an additional 4mm that shows up on the cylinder wall but that is the distance from the top of the piston to the first ring. So....at first glance a used disassembled cyclinder would appear to have a deck of 8mm but it is closer to 4mm. Now that has not finalized the number (as we should still have one attached to a bottom end) but you now know what ballpark we are playing in. On a different note, are they surface treating the steel liners? I had only heard of that done on aluminum bores like they do on the more recent GSX-R's to eliminate the weight of a liner and increase the thermal transfer by not having it. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Rockin_John on 04/11/07 at 01:15:00 Okay... Now that you guys are talking more reasonable for street use, and not max bore and compression, I'm "Interested." I'll buy in for one at a reasonable price @ 96mm and 9.5:1 That gets us 680cc right? And I think people will be surprised what a slight increase in the compression ratio will do to the power. (1) I don't care anything about making the piston lighter; modifying the skirt, or any trick coating on the piston itself. Just a good forged piston with no interference, and the possibility of adding a performance cam (like Lancer's). One concern... Ross mentions "racing rings" which are a different animal from normal use rings. But then they also continue to describe multi-part rings like street bikes use. I want to be sure we are getting a ring set that will hold up for a long time, and isn't made to be changed after every few "races!" Provided of course that one size fits all... I noticed that the Wisco 96mm says years 1986-1995. Is there a difference after that? I'm wanting the piston for my newly aquired 1999 that has 27k miles on it. I know the head has supposedly been "done" (what was done I don't know). I have no idea what might have been done to the cylinder at that time. As told to me, only the head was re-worked. (1) Back in the early 90s, I owned an old 70s Savage 250cc Enduro bike. It looked and rode good, but was smokin' and a bit down on power. I was going to hone and ring it, and went to a local Suzuki Guru who used to own the biggest dealership in the area. As an old man, he had lost the dealership, and now ran a cycle salvage. When I went to see him for a set of rings, he went into the back of one of his old sheds, and came out with this NOS piston for some Suzuki 250cc MX bike, and nonchalantly said "drop this into her and see what happens." I did, and the tame little Savage was instantly turned into a fire breathing beast that would wheelie at will on throttle twist all the way up through third gear! Fourth gear only required that you help jerk it up a bit! My point: I learned a big lesson from the old man. A little compression change can go a long way. I know the two Savages are very different bikes, and I wouldn't expect that kind of change out of our street Savage, but I still think some folks will be surprised what the difference between 8.5 and 9.5 might do. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/11/07 at 04:23:07 It's a multi ring setup, they set the gaps according to your use, i think they just say "racing" to make the power hungry like me say "ooo i need those!!" |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/11/07 at 04:26:36 Also, does anyone know our stock cylinder wall thickness? We just need to leave 2 or 3 mm for reliability. I'm not sure what bore that would leave us with... Although, with the increased interest in the 96's, maybe i should just leave well enough alone. I did talk to the local good mechanic, he didn't think 10:1 was high for pump gas, said he ran it just fine, never heard spark knock. Course that was in his 1970some 750 Ducati... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 04/11/07 at 07:20:19 the new yamaha yzf-R1, their top of the line sport bikes, run12.7:1 CR on pump gas. We'll be fine. We may need a hotter (or cooler?) spark plug. also, a great upgrade on this bike would be a bettter ignition coil. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/11/07 at 07:32:48 Okay, just IGGzaklee what is the cost for piston & rings? I would stick it on a shelf & wait till I need( or have the $$ to do it anyway) a top end job. I would so enjoy finishing this thing out with a head porting, single walled header, bored out & compression jacked a bit. I'll bet that would run. That would just have to surprise a few folks. WHO has the cylinder coating? Is that Lancer? Did the folks who did the coating bore it out, too? & How much $$$ was that little enterprize? I still think going to a chain may be necessary or at least very desirable after this kind of work. With the added power, staying geared so low that the highway wrings it out so bad is kinda crazy. Specially when $200.00 will solve it. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/11/07 at 10:20:37 Just a couple of opinions on 10:1 and higher. My concern personally on the 10:1 or higher comes from the fact that this is a very basic flat top piston design with I am guessing a pretty basic combustion chamber design and more importantly an almost 4" bore with single spark plug. I doubt suzuki engineers put much time into trying to build a high swirl fast burning combustion design head on this thing. The bikes you are comparing to are both very highly advanced in their design to run at that compression and also have much smaller bore sizes (not to mention fuel injection on the yamaha) The issue is that with an almost 4" bore you have a huge distance that burn front has to travel. Now you up the octane to prevent detonation and you slow down the burn rate. (wrong direction!) Now you risk not having a complete burn. You can also retard the timing to avoid detonation and you are starting your burn later...again risking incomplete burn. If you are going to push too high you had better be ready to mod the head for a dual spark head also. Doesn't look easy from this one. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 04/11/07 at 12:53:32 it's a full open chamber hemi head design. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/11/07 at 15:08:29 The newer high compression bikes usually have variable timing and knock sensors to avoid detonation, thats how they can run 12:1 and higher, well, that or race gas. 10:1 is fairly reliable with pump gas without advanced technology. Much higher than that is not. While 9.5 gives an extra bit of reassurance that your not going to get ping, 10:1 is not over the limit. It is pretty much right at it though. And the higher compression just increases efficiency of burn, which increases cylinder pressure and therefore horsepower. The increased pressure does increase heat, but this is still related to the total horsepower, which will not be that high. I do think we would need to monitor temperature, and see if we need to add an oil cooler, (can the stock oil pump be replaced with higher flow?), but I don't think we would have unsolvable problems with 10:1. It seems like there is enough interest in the 9.5 to get 4 people, Vroom, maybe we can each buy two of the higher compression, if they work well without serious side effects we could probably sell the extra ones on here... I'm willing to try it. Bore Tech is the company that does the carbide coating, they charge 60 for the bore hone job, and 115 for coating. You can contact them on their page, i'm not sure how much shipping costs would be... I actually found a guy locally that will bore mine for me so i probably won't do the coating this time, maybe when i resleave... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/11/07 at 15:09:55 Oh and yeah, i'm gonna go to the chain too. I wanna try the 14-45 combination, doubt i'll leave it that way, but i'd like to try it. ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by wvhunter62 on 04/11/07 at 20:07:10 9.5:1 or 10:1 not much difference both will do fine on pump gas. When do we buy? 96mm or 97mm will also be fine. I am ready to build. Do we have all of the info we need yet? Do we have 4 people commited yet? This reply sounds kinda rough, not really, I am just itchin' to build, I've always been kinda impatient. :P Did we ever get a final price? I've been on the road the past few days, just tryin' to get caught up. Tim |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/11/07 at 20:31:08 I have been traveling for 2 weeks and have missed out on a lot of this. Has someone done a precise measure to ensure the deck height, piston to valve clearance, etc is absolutely correct yet? I have a strong interest in the hi-comp pistons and would rather do that than cut metal from the cyl. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/12/07 at 03:25:35 I am on the fence since I haven't started the build but if we can keep it under $150 I would probably be game....don't count me out yet. I think it might be time for an all call again listing the proposed specs and costs. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/12/07 at 05:04:37 It's starting to look like we will need the valve pockets cut out, that will bring the price right up to about 150, i'd have to look to get the exact price but 150 isn't more than 10 off either way. If we get 20 people together the price drops 15 bucks each i think. I'm fine with 9.5 or 10, i agree that we'll be fine on pump either way, and i guess i don't have to have the extra half point... I'd like to do the 97mm, but a quick cylinder wal thickness measurement would cement that for me. I'm sure we can get together 4 people, it seems like we could get a couple groups of 4 if we want to order a couple different pistons, Lancer maybe you could get a few to go 9.5 95mm so you don't have to rebore, and then a few of us could go 97mm and 10:1? I'm thinking too, if we order for the 4mm deck height with the .03 clearance to the valves we'll be fine even if it turns out to be the 8mm clearance, it would just be more expensive because of the valve pockets. I haven't broken into this motor yet and i can't find the figures for deck height or valve opening anywhere. If anyone has sure measurements it would sure help. I suppose i could just open my motor up, but 3 weeks or so to get the pistons with no scoot, i dunno if i can take it.... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/12/07 at 06:09:45 I really dont see you being grounded over the cost of a head gasket & the labor to reassemb;e the top end. You like riding way too much. If the deck height is that important( & I am gonna have to expect it is) And you be ramrodding this drive for pistons( & I kinda think you are) seems ya just might have to check that issue out before any pistons are bought. I think the notion has already been chewing in yer head. I appreciate all the groundbreaking work you are doing. With this mod, & a chain, like Hutch & Ohh, heck I am sorry I fergot that other fellows name, have done, this bike will be a real surprise for a bunch of folks. My daughter will love it. Looks like she is in line for being it's new owner. Imagine someone weighing 120 on a bored & compression increased 650 with a Supertrapp. Thing otta take off like mad.. Lets hope. Les, thanks for doing the homework. I wont be able to swing $150.00 till the first O next month.Well,, the third, actually. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Rockin_John on 04/12/07 at 11:06:53 Numbers. This discussion is sorely in need of some hard data on several counts. You can only do the math if you have the numbers! Do we have ANY of these measurements we need: Cylinder head volume; Deck height & Head gasket thickness (what would be a squish band, if not discussing a Hemi as opposed to a flat-top cylinder design). Once given these data, and then the bore size is chosen, the compression ratio can be calculated. Being a Hemi chamber, the easiest way I know to measure the volume would be to measure by liquid displacement: Fill the head's chamber level with oil, then measure the volume of oil removed from the chamber. A reasonably accurate measurement can be achived by drawing the fluid out with a very large syringe like a veteranarian uses on large animals: http://www.catoosatrading.com/images/vehicles/cycles/35cc_syringe.JPG I took a picture of the biggest syringe I have, but I don't think it would be big enough to measure the Savage's cylinder head chamber volume. Using an estimated squish area, and compression ratio, I *guesstimate* that we are looking at a total chamber size in the area of 45cc (head chamber area + deck squish area + gasket thickness area). Maybe a 35cc syringe would be big enough to measure head volume, since much of my estimated 45cc total is from the squish and gasket areas. The volume of any relief pockets in piston tops for valve clearance would need to be included (subtracted) in measurements too. At the sizes we are talking about, even one CC is signifigant to the calculations. Remember, as someone previously mentioned, just an overbore causes a compression ratio change, as you are then squeezing more cc of fuel/air into an area where the cylinder head displacement has not changed (although the squish area has). All this can be calculated too, but again, it requires hard data (measurements) or at least estimates. Another nasty little issue someone brought up: Heat. That is the killer, and where the deal starts to go south if you get too power greedy. Hence my hesitation to buy into a deal of maximum bore AND compression ratio. You can toss around talk about what might be a safe compression ratio all day, and it doesn't mean squat, unless you also consider how far the cylinder has been punched out. Both of which are going to raise the engine temp. and though I live within a couple of miles of a drag strip, an engine which will only run a few minutes before overheating is of little interest to me. Also, while I'm interested in eventually adding an oil cooler, I don't want any piston/cylinder/head issues dictating an oil cooler as a necessity for my engine's survival on the street. So... here is my opinion, and what will keep me interested in pulling my wallet out to the tune of $150 neighborhood: Keep the numbers reasonable on this first attempt. Either go for the big CC and a small CR boost, like 97mm @ 9.5:1 ... OR ... go conservitive on the CC and still keep the CR reasonable, like 95-96mm @ 10:1. As I stated earlier, if it were entirely up to me, I would go short on both and do 96mm @ 9.5:1 and see how that worked before throwing more money into the venture. I would hope those numbers would be safe on premium pump gas, but honestly I think even those conservitive numbers are a risk. I personally wouldn't care to press it any farther on a first try. Nobody will mistake me for Capt. Kirk and "Boldly going where no man has gone before." ;) All I want to do is sneak up on a few horsepower here and there. My ideal end game would be to reach the infamous one H.P./C.I. performance benchmark, without losing the beloved bottom end torque. I'm thinking 40-45 H.P. should be attainable without serious reliability issues. Maybe as much as 50. By then I'd expect the beginning of some serious trade-off in durability. Ya got my 2¢ again ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/12/07 at 18:58:31 Those 2cents add up! I agree with everything your saying here, i suppose i need to accept that i'm digging in the motor.. soon as i get the new cam and carb i'll open it and get the numbers. I'll post them when i have them. I want to keep our cylinder wall thickness in the safer range. I assumed with there being kits to 97mm that that left plenty of room, but with more pressure to contain we should have extra insurance, so i'll check out the walls, wonder if we'd get more from a half point compression or 1mm to the bore.. barry68v10 provided this neat link on the other piston discussion. NOT2FAST: Turbo Calculator (http://not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml?FeetASL=0&Tamb=21&Bore=94&Stroke=94&nCyl=1&RPM=6500&VE=60&Boost=0&Ec=75&Eic=70&PdropIC=0.5&TambIC=21&wiPercentMethanol=50&wiRate=100&wiTemp=21&SFC=0.49&AFR=14.1&maxInjectorDutyCycle=85) Edit: Fixed the YABB code to display a link that fits on the screen. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 04/12/07 at 19:11:03 97mm piston is the max offered by westco - for me I want to stay away from the max - line up on 96mm. So far as compression goes - our gas sucks thats all there is to that - 9.5:1 is all I want to push the "93" pump junk reformulated stuff. 96mm/9.5:1 I'll take two. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/12/07 at 19:23:28 And you know how things in forums seem to move around kinda slowly..... I figured I could get final numbers by the time we had enough people agreeing on what to get. I just keep pushing the subject to keep interest up... I was actually kinda hoping that someone else would take over this topic when I started it... but i'll drag my lazy behind up and figure this thing out, might just take me a bit.. so where is everyone else at now as far as size and compression? And i'm not sure yet what has to be done to the piston to get our desired compression, just the bore increase and moving the rings up would get a some more compression, i don't know how much.. probably still have to go a little taller and if the deck is 4mm and the valves open just .03 into the cylinder less than that, we'd need the valve pockets. maybe it is time for another call to ross... I think It would come to 152.50 each for up to 20 pistons 137.50 each over 20.. these are just estimates without final figures, could be more, could be less, these are supposed to be high estimates, but you never know. I'll keep lookin' for numbers, if anyone else finds any lemme know! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/12/07 at 20:17:53 Please confirm when you tear your engine apart but here is what I have on my spare cylinder ('87 or '88 with a 94mm bore). 4mm deck (from top of piston to top of cylinder) as measured on the cylinder side wall from hot gas marking. It has a 5mm liner thickness. The top measures 5mm and the bottom is 7-7.5mm (skirt is much thinner) so there must be a shoulder toward the bottom end and it is pushed in from that direction. (or the the whole thing is 7mm thick and a smaller diameter at the top for a stop I wouldn't count on that though.) If we keep this at a 9.5:1 and in the 95/96mm bore (97 max). No fancy coatings or lightening work and target $150 or less with rings and pin, then I think I could spring for one to put on the shelf. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/13/07 at 04:43:06 Ok, most folks seem happier with 96mm 9.5:1. I'd actually like to keep 3mm liner thickness so 96 is fine by me. I'll give up a half point on compression, I'm still going to have to run an oil cooler if i do the nitrous, but 9.5 keeps me in a safer range with the pressure i'll be adding... There were definately at least 4 sold with these specs, so i'll call ross again, see if what kind of numbers they already have for our bike, if any. Thinking now.. If they do have the necessary info would everyone like me to place the order? I'll wait a couple of days on responses before i call, but i don't know if ross will have the info. I still need to see if they will let us all send in payment seperately and then ship to us each seperately.. If they will not do this, is there maybe a trusted board god here that would be willing to make the transaction? Collect the funds and then seperate the order for everyone, maybe for a small fee? I'm new here, so I don't expect to be trusted with anyone's money or piston, and frankly I avoid responsibilty whenever possible anyway. I don't really think this will be necessary, ross will probably charge us extra to ship individually, but i don't see why they wouldn't do it. I'm just trying to line these ducks up, so hard to get neat rows... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/13/07 at 07:10:26 If it turns out to be necessary I would be willing to act as the central ordering/shipping point. Nothing extra needed, just cover actual costs to everyone. I do not know if it would be possible with this particular business, but since I am an authorized parts dealer for several companies already ... they MIGHT be willing to sell to me at a dealer/wholesale cost and thus saving us all some $$. It all depends on their requirements for being a dealer. If so blessed, we could possibly save anywhere from 10-30% on the piston cost. If the person who made the initial contact with this company can send the name/number I will check on it. ***To be perfectly clear with everyone here, if it is possible to be listed as a dealer with this company, then when making THIS order it will be on a cost only basis ... I would not want to take any profit on this. Every member on this website who wants a piston would pay the same wholesale price. After this order is complete I may list the pistons on occasion with a few of the other parts I put together. If this sounds OK with everyone I will check on the possibility. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Rockin_John on 04/13/07 at 08:36:38 LANCER wrote:
I can't speak for the guy who started this piston discussion, or anyone else, but I'm okay with that arrangement. It seems that several people have been concerned about compatibility with your camshaft kit anyways. As a future possibility, myself included, in the prospect of a mild low-mid torque cam grind. I've been wondering if you would kick in here, as I see the opportunity for you to eventually offer stepped kits: Stage #1; Stage #2; Stage #3 ... With increasing degree of performance/cost. It's a common marketing strategy benificial too both seller and buyers, as it assures compatibility, and allows buyers to decide what level of performance/durability they are comfortable with. But there is a point were this sort of thing gets a bit sticky, and I know this from ordering other custom parts with another group (In the other case it was music instrument speakers)... Once someone has associated themselves with a design from a company, sometimes the company will refuse to allow anyone else, other than the person who made the original order, to order that design in the future. IOW, that person has exclusive rights to that design from that manufacturer. I'd hope this wouldn't be the case here. Though unlikely, someone else might want to order the minimum four pistons in the future, and it would be nice if the company didn't turn them away because "that design belongs to ______!" Barring that one fluke, I'd think your offer would be a service to the group as a whole, and probably the most economical way too, IF they will allow you a wholesale discount. Of course, once this whole thing is a proven scheme, I'm sure there will be more folk want in on it in the future, and the ground work will already be laid. Of course, you could always offer the people from this group some discount on future purchase, as I've seen you do in the past. ;) (To clarify: Discount as compared to what you might sell for $$$ on eBay or elsewhere.) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/13/07 at 11:35:23 John, I appreciate your remarks on my post, and wanted to add a bit more for all concerned. The companies I am associated with to date have not offered or requested an exclusive relationship on any parts sales, and I do prefer it that way. I have on occasion provided specifics on parts/sources/prices, etc, to anyone who asked. My purpose in buying/selling parts has been from the beginning to just support my own "Savage Habit". With that in mind I do not desire any exclusive rights with any company at all. That sort of thing requires a larger commitment business wise and I have no desire to go there. I want to keep things as easy and simple as possible. I will gladly share parts info with anyone who wants to get more in depth with their own project and if necessary deal directly with a parts company. This whole thing started with others requesting that I set up a rebuilt used carb for them because they did not feel confident of their skills. Being retired, I need to stay retired and not be burdened with running a company. I only did the dealer thing in order to save $$ ... as in this case. So, let's try to save some $$ for everyone and have some fun. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by wvhunter62 on 04/13/07 at 13:29:53 I am ok with Lancer handling the purchase :) I am also ok with 9.5:1 and 96mm. I am really ok with saving 10-30%. I am leaving this evening for Oil City PA and will not be back until Sunday, if we start purchasing before I get back count me in, I will send payment when I get back. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/13/07 at 14:25:51 Lancer, i would much rather you get in touch with them, see about dealer costs. I'll PM you with the info. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/13/07 at 15:01:13 I really want in on this, but simply cant scrape up the $$ till the 3rd O May. I like the idea of not going whole hog in either direction, bore or compression. Lancer, will this be a good thing along with the cam I am getting thru you? I expect I know the answer, but I would rather ask a silly question than risk a nasty surprise. Will the added duration on the cam create a clearance issue? Even as the cam becomes more retarded dut to chain wear? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/13/07 at 20:33:07 I will contact the rep next week and see about the dealer status, so let's keep this covered in prayer and ask for God's favor. We need all the help we can get. When putting in a bit more cam action and bumping the compression a little will result in much bigger smiles for miles and miles. BUT we need the exact numbers on piston-to-valve clearance before we jump into this pan. I will try to work on it but hope others will also ... multiple numbers to compare would be good. Should be fun. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/17/07 at 11:35:06 I was able to talk with the folks at Ross Pistons today. It may be possible to work out a dealer thing with them. The price on the pistons is still mostly determined by the number of pistons/order. Minimum order is 4 (as mentioned before), and priced at about $100 per piston for a domed HD type, or $94 for a flattop Suzuki type. If the order goes up to 20+ then the prices are $85 & $80 ea for HD & Suzuki. For an order of 40+ it will be in the $65 & $60 range per piston. These prices are for piston only, no pin or rings, they are extra. Sorry, did not get those prices. ***Each order of 20 or more can be split up into 2 groups of the same compression ratio but with different bore sizes...like 10 of 96mm and 10 of 97 mm, with all 20 being of the same comp. ratio of 9.5. The bore sizes need to be next to each other. We cannot do a stock 94mm and then 97mm for example. If we can get enough of us together for at least an order of 20 then we can get them for about $80 each. So, what do you all think at this point? Should we go to the next step of getting the EXACT NUMBERS that they will need to in order to do something? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/17/07 at 15:38:11 I'm ready when we have the numbers. I'll check them when i do the cam... which i just got.. and is very is pretty. Thank you Lancer! so i'll be doing it soon, next few days work schedule permiting. Now i have the order form .pdf from ross for custom pistons.. do you know all the numbers we need? I couldn't figure out if they had some stock figures or not... And i'd rather not try to figure out some of the volumes... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by DrT on 04/17/07 at 16:13:31 You can count me in for one. I am based in the UK but I will cover the cost of postage/shipping as long as someone can send it to me. I can pay up front when the time comes. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/17/07 at 17:00:02 This will require an upfront payment from everyone who wants one of the pistons. So for anyone who is interested it would be a good idea to set the $$ aside in a can or something as soon as possible while we work on getting the required data and also get the necessary 20 commitments. I will get back with the piston guy, John, and get estimates on shipping a box of 20+ pistons to me and also factor in the cost of shipping from me to all of y'all. I may need to add in a buck or two for the packaging I will need to send the pistons to each of you. The boxes I can get from the USPS free for domestic addresses, but other boxes will be necessary for any international addresses and maybe some packing material if needed. I usually try to use free stuff like newspaper and such though. I just want to be prepared. The shipping cost outside the US will be handled on an individual basis depending on where you may be located. Remember, we need a minimum of 4 just to place an order. So let's work on bringing in as many Savage riders as possible on this. I was thinking of starting a new thread for the sole purpose of people to make their commitment, then we would have a "hard list" which everyone could check out and monitor our progress. Then as soon as we hit the magic #20 (or beyond), everyone could process their payment within a day or two and I can process the order. I can also keep everyone up to date with the whole process of ordering, manufacturing, shipping here, shipping out, and exact costs along the way. Everything out in the open. One point about the payment process. I have a merchants account with Paypal and can therefore accept credit card or Paypal account payments. That may make it easier for some to do this. If anyone needs to make payment with a Money order then we will need to work that out individually. If anyone is in that catagory then let me know right away. But please understand that a cc or paypal is by far the easiest to do. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Rockin_John on 04/17/07 at 19:53:12 While I think your idea of a seprate thread for commitment is the way to go, folk need to know exactly what they are commiting to; including the total cost of a useable kit (rings, pin, and all...) Also, since this thing has been kind of a "design by committee" thing (often not a good idea) I think I'd throw my vote in for a flat top piston over a dome. While the dome 'might' have better performance, the flat top would be more predictable and the safer bet I think. That is, unless someone has some evidense that a dome top is an obviously better choice for the Hemi chamber (and it may well be). I'd also have a tendancy to follow the manufacturer's fecommendation on such matters, as they might just know what they are talkin' about. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/17/07 at 19:58:29 The Savage has to have the flattop, I don't think the dome would even work in our head. I quoted the price of the dome because that was the basis of the original price that was mentioned early on in this thread. I wanted everyone to know that there was a difference in the price of the two types just to insure there was no confusion regarding price later on. Am I clear or did I confuse myself again? ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 04/17/07 at 20:20:02 Total them up your sure past 4 - I'll take 2 if not bigger than -> 96mm 9.5:1 |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/18/07 at 04:13:56 My first thought was to do 10 pistons, 96mm, 9.5:1 cr ... and then 10 pistons, 97mm, 9.5:1 cr. That is just a first thought. It all is dependent on what everyone wants. I also was just thinking about doing another 4 on the side at 97mm with 10 or 10.5:1 cr. That extra point of compression would add a bit more attitude to this puppy. IF there is any interest of course. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/18/07 at 04:43:36 I still do want to try to push this poor little bike 'bout hard as i can, so a 10:1 97mm would be great for me. The prices I listed earlier were estimates based on a 4 piece order with rings and pins, so i guess getting 4 specials made would stay about the same on cost. If we have the interest in 4 97mm 10:1's we could get that order in as soon as we have the right numbers (i should have some of the numbers by this weekend). |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/18/07 at 06:20:10 Some years back I would have jumped all over the 10 or 10.5 idea, now, I feel good at 96 mm & 9.5. I just dont want to go "All the way" on any mod. I would be afraid it might create a dependabiity issue.. Maybe the thing will handle it all, But,, I am just unwilling to pay the money & do the work to see. I think, & I have No experience to even have an opinion, but, hey, I do, I think the bike will have enough OOOmph at 96 mm & 9.5 to 1 to be quite a blast & sure enough eat a few stock bikes with ease. Well,, That's what I am hoping for.I would like to be able to get the cylinder done by the same outfit that did Lancers,, |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/18/07 at 07:35:29 justin_o_guy wrote:
I'm sure the 96 9.5 deal will make a BIG difference, and going 1mm and half a point over that will probably only make a couple horse difference.. I don't think anyone will regret going with the more moderate figures, and I hope it's not a big mistake to max it out.. buuuuuut, i'm still willing to try it. (sure do hope it doesn't explode though.. ;D) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Savage_Rob on 04/18/07 at 07:59:16 I just don't want to take the whole dang thing apart because that means I can't ride while I'm doing it and I take big projects like that slowly. After all, I am a mechanically-inclined amateur. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by hutch on 04/18/07 at 08:26:02 This a good post. I have been watching this from the beginning as an observer. I imagine a few did that with my chain conversion. I have done a lot of performance motor builds on bikes and cars, so I was just watching the progress and thinking about my own experience. As usual you start out with the "hotter" is better. If you drag race and don't mind rebuilding often, that is true. I am glad to see that you have come down to a 95-97 overbore, and 9.5 compression. That is in the reliable catagory and you will be VERY surprised at the change. When used with Lancer's mid range cam, it should be very impressive, yet reliable. With that combo premium pump gas will work fine.That is what I run in my 1967 Royal Enfield 750. It is 9.5 to 1,and has race cams from the factory. I have owned several and built several 650-750 Triumph motors and the 9.5 and mild cam is a great combo for the street. You can get away with stock valve springs as long as you don't go with a cam lift over .350. Lighter pistons will "unbalance" the motor. It is unfortunate that the Savage motor is of the overhead cam variety. You could get the same performance by shaving the head or block(jug) for a lot less than the new piston, but at least you don't have to split the case to change the cam like most bikes. Another advantage of the Savage is the auto compression release. When going from 8.5 to 9.5 with a kicker, you really know what a change it is. I am just finishing up a 650 Triumph chopper. I put the 750 big bore kit on and 9.5 pistons. I can now put my full weight(150) on the kicker and it just sets there until I lunge on it. It sounds like LesGolden wants to embarass some bikes from 0-70mph with the 14/45 ratio. One more reason for the chain conversion. You can play around and not turn the belt into a rubber band..If L-VYRA wasn't only 3000 miles tired I would go with the 95mm to get the 666cc, just seems right for her evil theme I got going. Later on when she is a little older I just might have to do that. Just thought I would give my 2 cents. Have fun!!!! I always did. Hutch |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 04/18/07 at 09:10:19 I MAY be able to afford one. If we're under $100, I'll probably go in, and put the piston aside until I can get a cam & the boretech cyl treatment. I believe I'd be interested in the 97 mm, 9.5:1 or so, stock weight if possible. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by hutch on 04/18/07 at 09:28:57 There is one thing I forgot to mention. Deck height is critical. I am sure Suzuki has closer tolerances than the old Triumph company.You could buy two or three Triumphs back in the sixties and each would run different. After working on them for years I found out why. Some heads could be shaved down, and some couldn't because they were already as short as possible. Same for the jug. It was crazy. These were untouched Factory pieces. Just to be sure I would have more than one person check the deck clearance. Hutch |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by tbalam on 04/18/07 at 18:32:37 I too have been watching this thread, and am very interested in the cam, piston, carb and exhaust upgrades. Unfortunately, due to things beyond my control, (read the "boss" and finances) they'll have to wait. However, as i think about the physics of all this, my intuition tells me that the piston must be stock weight... unless you want to drill and balance the crankshaft balancer to match the lighter piston. IF not this would throw the mechanics of the engine out of whack. Although with the amount of vibration the savage has anyway there's a good bet that it might be smoother when you're done. ;) can't wait to hear how the rebuilds go and the results, especially from those who are doing the piston and cam. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by wvhunter62 on 04/18/07 at 21:22:36 Alright! Sounds like we are getting somewhere. Count on me for 1 96mm 9.5:1. I will send payment via Paypal as soon as we have a purchase date. Now I gotta start savin' muny for that bumpstick. A big THANKS to Lancer for handling this, I really appreciate it. Even If you are not going to rebild right now you may want to get in on this, I do not believe you will beat the price. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/19/07 at 07:39:22 After reading the very informative comments from Hutch I went back to look for a program I ran across a few years ago which will calculate displacement and compression ratio when changing bore &/or stroke on an engine. Understand that these are very likely rough numbers. Stock: 94x94 ... 652cc ... 8.5:1cr 95x94 ... 666cc ... 8.68:1cr 96x94 ... 680cc ... 8.87:1cr 97x94 ... 695cc ... 9.05:1cr I wonder if the piston makers factor this into their plan when they make it in order to get an exact cr result? Probably so, but on the next contact I will ask about it. At this point we only have 8 members who have said they want to do this, and 1 maybe. One of the 8 wants 2 pistons. That makes 9 or possibly 10 pistons so far. We need more folks if we want the $15 discount. Personally, I really care about the discount all that much. It would be nice to get the price down, especially if we were able to have a 40 piston order and knock $30 off the price. But regardless, if I really want to put in a bigger &/or higher cr piston then a few $ is not going to make a difference to me. When considering that the cylinder will need boring, new gaskets for the rebuild, etc, and the costs associated with those things then the $15-30 is not really a significant factor. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by hutch on 04/19/07 at 08:37:17 LANCER, you know I never thought about the compression factor. I wonder if they do figure that in or if the overbore compression is an added plus to the piston itself. I am like you when it comes to the discount. When I want something bad enough, I don't care how much it cost. But on a good note you can count me in on a piston. I will just put it on a self until I get some miles on L-VYRA, and buy a cam from you later also. I know you said that the pistons had to be next to each other in size. There might be a problem with me being the only person wanting a 95mm for the 666cc configuration. If this is the case I will just wait until later to buy one separate from the group buy. Let me know what the deal is, and I will order accordingly. You already know I have PayPal. Any word on the rush cables yet? I'm getting antsie. Hutch BTW are these pistons cast or forged. Forged is the only piston that will not break if anyone would ever think of putting NOS on the bike. Also you get a better exhaust flow with the flat top piston than the dome, because the hump is not holding gasses back. That is why I always went with overbore and milled the head(if possible) and milled the cyclinder for more compression. This will be the first time I went with a taller flat top piston. Should be great for the overhead cam timing problem. One thing nice about your cam specs is you won't end up with a lot of valve overlap. Overlap is when both intake and exhaust is open at the same time. I had a 327 vette motor that I bored 40 over and milled both the heads and block 20. With the .510 lift and 480 duration cam I ended up with 2 thousandths clearance for the valves. Long slot rocker arms so I wouldn't break off the studs. HD valve springs.I messed up and didn't double check my torque on one rod cap and heard a tick in my motor. It was the valves hitting the piston on the badly torqued piston rod.Retorqued no problem. 450 hp 327 motor. Fastest car I ever owned. The biggest cam I put in a bike was a .400" lift, 340 duration in a Triumph. 3 thousandths clearance with the milled cyclinders and head. If you could kick it over AND it would start, it was real fun. Not for town use though, loaded up like crazy if not wide open all the time. You will know when you have a LOT of valve over lap. Just take off the air cleaner and you will hear the motor "huff" out the carb and see the gas mist out of the carb and suck back into the carb. You should not have any problems with the .264" lift and 239 duration cam that LANCER is offering. Good combo with the pistons you are planning on using. Perfect for the street and reliable. Radical is for the drag strip. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by smokin_blue on 04/19/07 at 16:50:38 I am interested in a 96mm 9.5:1 |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 04/19/07 at 17:54:32 smokin_blue wrote:
OK, got'cha on the list ;) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by hutch on 04/20/07 at 07:59:42 put me down for 95mm, 9.5 to 1. If there is no other interest in that size, no problem. I'm not superstitious, just evil. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by barry68v10 on 04/20/07 at 14:49:36 Quote:
Hey Hutch, maybe that explains the black cloud that you claim hangs over you?!? ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by hutch on 04/20/07 at 15:09:42 LOL, Barry68v10, guess what, when I was forced to retire and sell all the acreage of my farm they came out and surveyed it out . Guess what I have left. 6.66 acres. Yup!! I'm living in my own private hell. That black cloud is what made me evil. i been living with that cloud all my life, so what's a few more years Hutch |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/20/07 at 15:33:17 Naaah, if evil was a "Lightning rod" that attracted loss, pain, destruction, then the majority of the politicians would be sick, dying & broken men. Certainly, those ultra rich who own the federal reserve & harvest the labors of the people would all be in bad shape, since they steal what isnt theirs. If you dont know who owns the Federal Reserve, Google Owns Federal Reserve, Then, when (if) that doesnt mean anything to ya, read the Constitution. Note that the $ is now worth about 4 cents( comparing "Buying Power" now to the $ when the Fed was enacted) Congress is charged with the responsibility to coin money. Understanding the nature of money as it is is totally different from what we are lead to believe. Any who are curious, IM me. I dont want to load the board with political stuff, but this thread took a turn that just begs for sharing what I know. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Savage_Rob on 04/21/07 at 07:13:16 justin_o_guy wrote:
But never in RSD. If on this site at all, it should be relegated to The Cafe. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/21/07 at 11:57:45 I was just gonna go with IM's & not even post it.. but so far, no one seems interested, & in a way, I dont blame them, cuz its not exactly light hearted stuff. SOO, Nuff O that & ON with the shewww.. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 04/24/07 at 20:03:37 Ok - so what does it take to pull the deal through? I'm ready now |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 04/24/07 at 20:09:20 Still waiting on figures, I think. My gasket set and cam chain just came in so i'll check deck height at least in the next couple days. Like said before, more numbers will only help though so would be nice if anyone else diggin' into their motor checks too. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 04/24/07 at 21:11:52 If this goes thru before I do the chain mod, I'm in... but I just closed my engine last month (2 months?? time goes fast), so no deck height from me... and that $$$ is burnin a hole... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 04/24/07 at 22:10:47 dang it I agree - those boys know or can find out the deck height - I say let's order 9.5:1 96mm tomorrow! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/24/07 at 22:31:20 Now, just how much $$ we talking? I want the 9.5 to 1, 96 mm Piston, too., I have a few $$ stashed, looks like I can swing this even IF I have to do it before the 3rd of May. Let me know what the total is & make me feel good about this Deck Height issue, which I really dont get, unless we are talking about the distance from the top of the piston( stock) from the center of the wrist pin, compared to the new piston. I sure would hate to have a valve/ piston conflict. That would not be at all funny, especially after having the bore punched, cuz then the old piston won't go back in & the cost to get outta that mistake would get huge quick. I want to know the piston is gonna work. Maybe the folks at the place where the pistons are coming from can help, like Reel said. I would just be tickled to have that thing waiting. I would just do it this winter, instead of waiting for this cam chain to wear out. Replace the guides & maybe do an extension on the tensioner. It would be nice if I could figure out how to get clear pics to put up. The Kodak easyshare P850 disappointed me on that tensioner mod. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by barry68v10 on 04/25/07 at 14:50:34 Quote:
Here are the numbers Lancer gave earlier...the valves will always be closed when the piston is TDC (provided the valve springs are doing their job), so you should have plenty of room to play with. ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/25/07 at 15:04:31 Exhaust valve is closed when the piston gets to the top of the exhaust stroke? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by barry68v10 on 04/25/07 at 16:26:43 OOOOOO, good point. The valves are only fully closed on the intake/power stroke at TDC. The valves should not be fully open at TDC ever. The amount of clearance there will depend on lift and duration. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by barry68v10 on 04/25/07 at 16:52:21 OK, great.... >:( Now I've technically said two things which aren't necessarily true... :-[ I'll need to explain more...IF there is no valve overlap, both valves will be closed at TDC regardless of which stroke. But, that is rarely the case, particularly on motorcycles. Therefore, the amount of the overlap determines how far the valves are open when the piston is at TDC. The only thing we can say here and be totally accurate is, the valves will never be fully open at piston TDC, though they might be fully closed, again depending on the cam grind and valve overlap in particular. My main point of my original post SHOULD HAVE BEEN: you have .137" to play with to sort out your valve overlap with a new piston. A milder cam grind will give you more piston-to-valve clearance and a hotter cam will give you less for a given piston. Therefore, if Lancer's setup works with a particular piston, so should everyone else's... Not sure that's better, but its the best I've got today ::) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 04/25/07 at 18:00:03 I wasnt trying to be a problem, that was a real question, thanks for the clarification. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Rockin_John on 04/25/07 at 18:05:03 I don't know the numbers on the Savage's deck height, piston heght, various cam's lift/duration etc... to even know what the valve-piston clearances are on a stock Savage engine, much less once once we start doing modifications... But this I know: I'm not real keen on engine designs that have a built-in potential for valve-piston interference; like my wife's Plymouth (Mitsubishi?) 4-cyl. If the timing belt breaks on one of those engines, there is a very high likelyhood that the the valves-pistons will clash, and CRUNCH... the enging is toast. I had the timing belt changed on that car 10-15k before the recommended interval because I didn't want to risk that possibility. (Plus that engine has a cyl head plug problem much like the Savages cap/plug leak, and it needed fixed anyways. So the belt was a must-do as long as you're in there.) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by barry68v10 on 04/25/07 at 18:11:19 Quote:
Oh, I know that Justin. I made the mistake of posting when I was distracted and not focused on the subject. Then I did it again in haste. When I went back and read the post, I realized I was just making things worse and needed to attempt to fix it...not sure if it worked... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Rockin_John on 04/25/07 at 18:12:45 Once again, I'm good for one 96mm @ 9.5:1 to put on the shelf; whenever everyone is confident that we have a good design. And if the company is worth their salt, they won't let us order anything that would make them look bad. After all "they" are supposed to be experts. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by verslagen1 on 04/25/07 at 18:27:19 We all know what happens when you rely on experts... your muffler falls off and cause it's so loud you don't know the difference and you get the wrong parts. ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 05/02/07 at 06:59:38 The interest shown to date is ... 7 want 96mm/9.5 cr 1 wants 97mm/9.5 cr 1 wants 95mm/9.5 cr 2 want 97mm/10 cr 1 ?? So what do you all want to do? At this point there is no way we are going to get anywhere close to enough orders to get us a savings on the pistons. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by azjay on 05/02/07 at 08:48:34 count me in for a 96mm/9.5:1,,,,,i do have a spare engine to play with ;) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 05/02/07 at 11:55:32 well, considering I have managed to get down to 35 MPG, I don't see how I can afford to jack the performance anymore. The cam & jetting have me just about turning around at the end O the driveway at the gas station & refilling. Also, I can happily report that the performance is such that I can no longer "Ride the snot" out of it! It is more bike than I am rider, & hopefully, it will stay that way a long time. It's finally stiut enough to force me to not "Dial on the beans" fully when I take off from a stop, leaned into a turn, cuz it Just might slide out now. It does pick up the front end a bit when I am just taking off hard. Shimming the clutch springs seemed to have been a good idea. I think I should just leave it alone. I may regret that later,I hope not.Maybe, if I decide I need one later, there will be demand enough to make another run by then. The new folks coming here & starting where I was a year ago , making mods & moving forward, there may be a few of them who can get an order up with me. I wish I could do it, but just now doesn't seem so smart. I wish the best for you other folks! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 05/07/07 at 18:54:39 Quote:
Dude, you have something going wrong with your bike. That kind of milage is just way off. The worst mpg I have calc was about 42 mpg while running the 36mm VM, it was still jetted on the rich side and I was doing back to back performance runs ... 0-60 and 1/4 mile, and doing so for about an hour solid. If the engine is running ok and the wheels are rolling freely then the carb is at fault. With the VM carb properly jetted and cam installed I have routinely got 48-50 mpg on the road during normal riding. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 05/07/07 at 20:05:33 Awwrite, well as soon as I get the power steering on the backhoe straightened out. Ill walk back off into the carb. Maybe I did the white spacer wrong. It did stink after that. AND, I busted one ear off the pilot jet & never was sure what became of the piece. Dunno if its in the carb somewhere.. Ill get a can O Berrymans & shoot the carb out.. maybe I sould just use Keyboard Cleaner compressed air, cant hurt anything with that. Berrymans is some mean crap to get on skin.. &the carb is in no way gunked up, |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 05/09/07 at 13:23:57 hey all, I'm OUT for now. new front tire is more important. if this doesn't go through till september, I may be back in. I hope to have a real job by then. V |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Reelthing on 05/09/07 at 17:37:38 vroom1776 wrote:
Oh NO not that! - guess school is about over? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 05/10/07 at 07:20:15 I'm gonna hand in my dissertation in August, defend in the fall or early winter. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 05/10/07 at 07:40:27 What is the subject area? Specific title for this one? Will you be a Master or a Doctor? Inquiring minds want to know .... ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 05/10/07 at 08:04:26 Dissertation title = "The Manipulation of Magnetostatic Waves" basically magnetically excited spins (part of the electron, no "classical" analog, very quantum, but we usually treat it classically anyway cause there are so many of them). When they "spin" out of phase with each other, you have a "spin wave," or maybe a "Magnetostatic wave," or even a "Magnetostatic spin wave." They can be manipulated to do different things. Applications include, radar, communications, signal processing, magnetic storage (hard drives). Got my BS in general Physics from University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth, 2000. This is not the UMass you've heard of (unless you listen to the Pixies), nor the ivy league school. MS, 2003 at Colorado State University in High Energy Physics Presently in the Magnetism & Magnetics Materials Laboratory, also at CSU, physics dept. BS = bull sh*t MS = more sh*t PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper. I get a shovel. Link to my group (http://www.physics.colostate.edu/groups/maglab/) under the "group" heading, I'm Kevin (http://www.physics.colostate.edu/groups/maglab/group/smith_kevin_bio.html) table of contents of dissertation, V2: TABLE OF CONTENTS 1 INTRODUCTION 1.1 Subject and Motivation 1.2 Investigation Overview 2 GENERAL THEORY OF MAGNETOSTATIC WAVE EXCITATIONS IN ONE- AND TWO-DIMENSIONAL MAGNETIC THIN FILMS 2.1 Spin Precession, Damped Precession, Ferromagnetic Resonance, and Magnetostatic Waves 2.2 Magnetostatic Waves in One-Dimensional Magnetic Thin Films 2.3 Magnetostatic Waves in Two-Dimensional Magnetic Thin Films 2.4 Yttrium Iron Garnet Thin Films 2.5 Excitation of Magnetostatic Waves in Magnetic Thin Films 3 MAGNETOSTATIC WAVE PULSE CARRIER WAVE NUMBER MANIPULATION 3.1 Theory of Magnetostatic Wave Propagation in Non-uniform Magnetic Fields 3.2 Experimental Setup 3.3 Experimental Results and Analysis 3.4 Conclusions 4 MAGNETOSTATIC WAVE PULSE CLONING AND TRAPPING 4.1 Introduction 4.2 The Three Wave Parametric Interaction 4.3 The Cloning and Trapping Process through the Three Wave Interaction 4.4 Experimental Setup 4.5 Experimental Results and Analysis 4.6 Conclusions 5 MAGNETOSTATIC WAVE DIFFRACTION AND SELF FOCUSING IN A TWO DIMENSIONAL MAGNETIC THIN FILM 5.1 Theory and Computer Aided Calculations 5.2 Experimental Setup 5.3 Anisotropic Magnetostatic Wave Diffraction 5.4 Magnetostatic Wave Self Focusing 5.5 Conclusions 6 SUMMARY 6.1 Conclusion 6.2 Future Work REFERENCES plus maybe some appendices, like computer code, and microwave connector care If I was smarter, I would have stopped with the MS. If I ever have children, I will not encourage them to go to grad school. Worst decision I ever made, except for 3 things (in order of occurence: 1) Colorado kicks butt. 2) Bought a savage 3) met Vroomette and I made some good friends ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by verslagen1 on 05/10/07 at 08:23:21 Ah, life choices and their consequences. ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 05/10/07 at 08:25:17 I can sure see why you chose Kevin for a screen name in such a forum. Somehow" Vroom" just wouldn't fit in so well..Uhh The chair recognizes the esteemed Dr. Vroom, Yes Dr.Vroom? What is your position on this? OHH, I see, Dr. Vroom is going to put a "positive spin" on the whole thing..MEE? Pick on a guy? Naah! Seriously, HUGE congratulations. I hope your paper is well received. SO., When you go to work, what will you want to be doing? |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 05/10/07 at 08:43:54 any of my friends who call me doctor will have to go see one. I am getting the he11 out of the academic world. other than that, I don't care too much (right now). I don't want a job that requires security clearance. I would likely enjoy being a Sales Engineer for Agilent. how many $100k oscilloscopes do I have to sell a year to make a living? prolly not too many. thanks! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by mpescatori on 05/10/07 at 08:55:54 Hey, VROOM, I visited the Magnetics Group website... ...what's with the Harry Potter wands ? ;D |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 05/10/07 at 09:09:42 at the top? those are "spins," or "magnetic moments." Doesn't really matter. They are spinning out of phase, and are a "spin wave." the spins are associated with the magnetism. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 05/10/07 at 13:51:07 Dude, please accept my congratulations for a very significant job well done. You did good. ;) It is a long haul to get where you are now and I will pray that God will provide the job that would fit you best, that will be enjoyable and interesting for you, as well as provide abundantly for you and family. You have worked hard and will now be rewarded for it. Actually, having a share in the developement of something new is a good thing...very profitable. BE BLESSED my friend. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 05/10/07 at 14:48:14 It's back together. Need to finish the tuning & see what the MPG is after all said & done. I might be able to get back on the list if the MPG isn't so crummeee I cant afford to go to a bigger piston. I will need some time, tho, cuz we got the kid a laptop & CRUShed me financially for a while.. I DO want a 152.5 main to try out if anyone has one to sell.. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 05/10/07 at 15:46:43 Dude, remind me of your mailing address and I will put one in the mail for you tomorrow morning. I am sending several things out tomorrow since we are leaving for a long weekend in NC. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Dr_Jim on 05/10/07 at 16:45:26 - |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 05/10/07 at 17:08:04 Well, your check is in the mail Dr J., cuz I was going to pay you even tho the thing didnt get here.If I have 2 & someone else needs one,I will send it, freee... But, if the P.O. wrecks one, then I'll just have the one. I hope you did more than stick it in an envelope this time. Their machine that spits envelopes thru a reader must pinch between rollers, & just squirted that jet right thru the end O the envelope after a few readers. I could see where it was cut & then a big chunk was just Goooone baby! I groaned pretty loud when i saw that.. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by Dr_Jim on 05/10/07 at 23:03:20 - |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by justin_o_guy on 05/11/07 at 07:43:56 Ahhh, the baggie explains the size of the chunk gone from the envelope. Anyway, the empty envelope & check are headed your way. Thanks all for the support & when , or if, I have a spare, I will send one to whomever needs it. I am obligated to return as many jets as I can to the shop, since I never paid for any of them. The dude just kinda shrugged it off. People sure are nice sometimes. Thete's a bunch of them here that way, I see "You pay the freight & it's yours" all the time. Maybe it's not as big a deal as I think it is, but I see the world in a pretty dim light, & stuff like that reall brightens my day. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by vroom1776 on 05/11/07 at 08:00:12 Thank you all for your kind, supportive words. I'm not done yet, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I don't think it's a train! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 06/01/07 at 10:30:26 It will happen. I'm afraid the only way to get higher compression pistons is to order custom pieces and 4 is the minimum. The only thing left to do to finalize the numbers (correct me if i'm wrong anyone) is to check valve clearance. Lancers idea (again correct me if i'm wrong) was to put 2mm (the necessary height adjustment for the compression bump) of modeling clay onto the piston top then reassemble the engine, turn it over by hand one full cycle (two full rotations) then disassemble and check the clay for indentations from the valves. This will tell us if and how deep we need valve pockets cut into the pistons. So, if anyone with their motor on a bench would like to do this step we can make the order. I still have my money set aside for the piston, rebore and coating so i'm ready as soon as we can do it! |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by verslagen1 on 06/01/07 at 11:39:16 If you add 2mm and it doesn't leave a mark I'd add 2 more till it does. I'm not sure how much clearance you should leave for varience between bikes but I think at least 1 and 2 would account for wear too. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by metri on 06/13/07 at 21:01:22 Hi all, I'm very late on this thread, but if it's still going to happen, I'll take a 96mm/9.5:1 piston. It will sit on shelf until winter, but I'd hate to miss out on the order... |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LANCER on 06/13/07 at 21:23:58 If I can avoid additional delays I think I can actually start putting stuff together in a week or so. When I do I will get the piston to valve clearance needed for the piston maker. |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by LesGolden on 09/27/07 at 00:14:11 Hello everyone! Well, I've been lost in my TL for a while now, been letting the poor savage sit alone. I'm finally done messing with the new beast for a moment so I'm breaking back into li'l suzi again. I'll probably need a new piston so I'll take all the measurements we needed for this group buy when I get the motor out. I'm gonna pull her apart completely so it's no big deal this time. Just thought I'd better bump this topic back up, get it rollin' again so in a few months when I've got the cash we'll be ready. ;) |
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Title: Re: Piston Group Buy Post by metri on 10/05/07 at 21:06:25 I can't provide any info for this buy, but I'd sure like to get my hands on one.... it's winter coming up and a great time to rip apart an engine and have it bored... |
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