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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> electrical trouble /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1173561066 Message started by Hiker on 03/10/07 at 13:11:06 |
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Title: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/10/07 at 13:11:06 I have an 07 S40 with 1200 miles . Heres my problem. I noticed that with the key in the run position, front lights all worked, no flashers or blinkers though. No rear lights at all, except brake lights. With the key in the accessory position all thel lights work, headlight, tail ight, front and rear blinkers and flashers. What could this problem be? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/10/07 at 16:23:45 Seems you had this same prob under anothet thread. It occured after a run in with a wall? Busted a turn signal off? Have you got a shop manual? Have you got a volt/ohm meter? There are most likely wirinbg diagrams online here, but I can't see them as well as the book. Just a cheapo volt ohm meter from radio shack will do. Get some wire to make jumpers, too, cuz the leads on a little meter are short. Little alligator clips are handy, unless you are related to an octopus. Prett nice to be able to hook one up & let go. There are clips that slip on meter probes, those can be clipped on a wire & the wire then used as a probe. If you solder a piece of hard wire on the new probe your little meter will be very handy. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/10/07 at 21:13:28 In other words you got a short or crossed your wires. Can't hide behind blind threads can you? So rip that puppy back apart and find your mistake. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/10/07 at 21:28:44 I haven't taken anything apart to cross wires. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 21:39:12 Hiker wrote:
That's why the other thread didn't work either... It won't fix itself :P |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/10/07 at 21:50:28 I hoped to get some advice on how to fix it. All anybody was interested in was the tape. THe tape is irrelevent nothing was ever taken apart. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 21:56:16 Hiker wrote:
You broke it. The advice is to remove the tape and find the problem. No one knows exactly what you have there until you tell us. Then we'll be more than glad to talk about it. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/10/07 at 23:45:04 We only know 2 things, the lights are screwed and the light was broken off. And that was repaired with ample amounts of duct tape, probably of the wrong color. Check the contacts at the light for grounds or open circuits. With the key in the park position only the tail light should be lit. Brake lights or signals should not work. So, believe it or not, you got a short. Guess what? You're going to have to tear all that duct tape off no matter what color it is. Please use the right color next time. ;D |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/11/07 at 00:30:51 I see the word "short" used during discussions where electricity is involved. More often it's not a short, but an open that is the problem. Shorts are most often accompanied by telltale signs of electrons using a short cut to ground instead of running dutifully through the load they were intended to run thru.The tell tale signs are, blown fuses, smoke, the smell of burning insulation, stuff like that. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by barry68v10 on 03/11/07 at 03:21:53 Hiker, my guess is, when the tail light got broken, some skin got ground off a couple wires leaving an open or short-circuit, or the force of impact caused two wires that were already frayed to contact a ground or each other. Get yourself a wire diagram in the Tech section and a circuit tester and start testing circuits to find the "bad" circuit. Unfortunately, electrical problems seem to be the most baffling and hardest to find. You might try rewiring your whole bike and simplify the thing like a few in this forum are currently tackling. I'd like to do the same to mine. I hate the mess of spagetthi wires and circuits running everywhere for such a simple machine. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by smokin_blue on 03/11/07 at 05:04:07 Hiker wrote:
Time out for some details....In the accessory position?? do you mean park..or (help me someone) are they now calling park accessory on the new bikes? secon question you do have a headlight on in park (accessory) position? Last question...did it ever work right when you've owned it or did you buy it this way? Lastly...This is an '07...aren't you still under factory warranty ? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by thumperclone on 03/11/07 at 07:14:15 fault(also ground fault,or arc fault)= wire going to ground (in vehicles usually before the load) short=wire is open,no complete circuit.. not knowing your bikes history its hard to trouble shoot your problem..but from what others are saying a light broke and was fixed..if it was the head light be aware that the housing is used as a "junction box" for front lighting circuits..the flasher relay operates when key is in park ..i do have a diagram if needed.. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 07:58:45 justin_o_guy wrote:
You are right, but in some cases, you can have a short on a ground wire where the current still goes through the intended load. It won't blow a fuse, but will cause some unexpected special effects. :P |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 08:03:08 thumperclone wrote:
This is why it's good to keep one subject in one thread. Hiker's broken light is a turn signal that got busted when his house went by... |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Max_Morley on 03/11/07 at 09:11:56 When the light elements in a dual filament bulb make contact with each other feedback can occur and often explains strange electrical problems. The same idea was expressed about the chaffed wires. Also a missing ground will allow the voltage to seek another path to through another bulb. That is how GM made the front turn signal work on 88-92 or PUs,SUVs with the 88 body style. You know the ones that toggle from front to side when the lights are off. I'd start with the broken turn signal first. another remote possibiity would be the contacts in the key switch are broken somehow. Maybe from the short to another cicuit or short to ground from the light being hit by the house ! Max |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/11/07 at 09:20:24 thumperclone wrote:
I disagree thumper... justin_o_guy said; "Shorts are most often accompanied by telltale signs of electrons using a short cut to ground instead of running dutifully through the load they were intended to run thru." But I believe in Hikers case we have a short to voltage. And maybe this is a misnomer, but you do have a pair of crossed wires. Because instead of smoke rising you have lights were there should be any. In a way you're lucky. In stead of replacing a rat's nest of burnt wire and various components, you got light. And we have a good clue which wire to search down, Power to the tail! (This is a much better thread, I wouldn't ever put my lips on a petc0ck!) ;D Commentary: Snide remarks at the end of a helpful discussion are OK! And when without, should be left in the cafe IMHO. 8) |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by barry68v10 on 03/11/07 at 17:23:38 I agree w/ verslagen: short circuit = any fault involving current not running thru load to designed ground, i.e. not running thru load, or reaching ground before design. At any rate, semantics really don't matter in this case if lights don't light when you intend and do when you don't...either case needs a circuit tester to find the exact wire and exact location. A circuit tester is part of any good tool kit, especially with the Savage! |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/07 at 05:03:54 verslagen1 wrote:
That's an idea. If you don't have a meter, test the wires in your mouth and see if you blink. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Kropatchek on 03/13/07 at 10:03:26 Hiker wrote:
Question: at what position of the ignition switch does you engine start? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/07 at 12:16:35 Hmmm. Let me think... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/IgnitionSwitch_2119.jpg |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by thumperclone on 03/13/07 at 20:32:53 ok a fault is when current flows where its not supposed to a short is no current flow.. this is like the topic of lighting rods.. no such thing they are air terminals.. or hot water heaters no such thing..we heat cold water... there are gas water heaters,solar water heaters , electric water heaters etc... |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/13/07 at 22:08:37 A short is when power goes straight to ground. Maximum current flow. an open is a busted wire, zero current flow. So, what DO we call it when 2 Hot wires get chafed & rub together? As long as they are both hot at the same time & the same voltage I spose it would be undetectable. IF lights are on when they aren't supposed to be on, I would guess this is what happened. Wires are crossed or just simply touching where the insulation has been wounded. A fault? I thought that was a tennis term...or geology. The USAF held me in classes for 9 months & force fed me electronics. I have heard of "Ground fault Interrupter" devices. Dunno how that works. I Hope this helps some. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/13/07 at 22:11:51 Thumper... you are a lost cause. A short is any time electricity goes where it shouldn't, such as turn the switch to park and all the tail lights are on. A fault describes anything, such as my bike has a electrical fault, the lights are out. open circuit is no electricity is flow, such as no lights on in the rear with the engine running. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 05:57:09 A ground fault interrupter creates and open circuit when a short circuit to ground is detected. It does this in mere milliseconds on the theory that you won't get fried that quickly... I'm glad that we've got that straightened out. Whew... But when are we gonna unbolt the turn signal parts and see what's inside? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by georgekathe on 03/14/07 at 12:28:08 good one Greg for getting this thread back on track to try to help Hiker with his problem, whether it be a short or a fault or a whatever. ;D |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by smokey02 on 03/14/07 at 13:12:02 just a little note on GFI a Ground Fault Interupter uses a bridge type circuit to measure the current flowing on the hot (black) and neutral (white) wires. If it detects a slight difference, it opens the circuit (turns off the power) cuz it assumes current from one side or the other is leaking out to ground (or thru someone/something). guitarists with older Fender type amps (2 prong AC plug- w ground switch) have noticed that the amp's ground switch can trip a GFI |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/14/07 at 13:58:05 OK, I have taken off the tape and removed the rear turnsignal. I noticed that where the wire goes through the crome fender rail the insolation has a hole in it.I took out the whol wire. Now do I need to replace the wire or can it be fixed. And since I have the light off I should replace it. How do I det the plastic cover off of the rubber boot. and then how do I get a new one back on. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/14/07 at 14:12:45 check all of the wires, if the insulation is torn by stretching the wire, then it's possible that somewhere hidden under the insulation is a broken wire. Get them each a good tug, replace any wire the stretches. Otherwise wrap with tape or even better shrink tube. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 15:26:45 Hiker wrote:
Do you have the seat and the fender rail off the bike? I also might be a little slow but what is the "plastic cover on the rubber boot"? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by thumperclone on 03/14/07 at 18:21:18 verslagen1 wrote:
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by thumperclone on 03/14/07 at 18:26:07 Hiker wrote:
there are liquid electrical tape products at the hardware store just brush on have used for uvderground splices up to 5k volts..you must consider viberation or rubbing.that may cause problem in the future.. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/14/07 at 18:43:14 Dr. Fishbeck (long since retired long time meterologist for abc los angeles) said "to increase your rate of success you need to increase your rate of failure". If my screwups were trees, I couldn't see the forrest! ;D It's what you do with your failures that tips the balence of fate. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 20:12:08 verslagen1 wrote:
Okay. Maybe you can explain what Hiker meant by "plastic cover on the rubber boot"... |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 20:21:17 Is it me or doesn't anyone check wires with a meter, or even more conveniently with the bikes power? Why not just turn the key on with the wires connected and wiggle the wires and try to find the bad connection? All we know is there was a "hole" in a wire and he pulled the wires out. Where's the hole and where'd he pull the wires from? So far everyone's way too technical on this, and we still don't know even a wire color. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 20:30:22 Here's a rear turn signal. I know it's not bullet shaped like the Savage40, but there's no difference in function. Where's it broken? http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/TurnSignal_2349.jpg |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/14/07 at 20:31:56 I think what concerns me the most is there is now a wire that belongs in the bike that isn't. I don't think I have seen any wires that remove without cutting or making a connector release the wire by reaching into it with a probe & tripping the catch. Im a bit curious as to how this wire will be reinstalled. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 20:45:31 justin_o_guy wrote:
That's why I asked about the seat and rail... |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/16/07 at 07:27:09 Checked the wires, there are no breaks that I could find. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by KenGLong on 03/16/07 at 07:45:40 verslagen1 wrote:
OT - Dr. Fishbeck started at KNME-TV in Albuquerque, NM before he moved to Los Angeles. I used to see him on the University of NM campus from time to time. He was a very entertaining fellow. Used to "wiggle" his mustache for effect. <G> Ken |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/16/07 at 10:03:01 Hiiker. If no wires are busted, then all that needs done is make sure the insulation is good on them & make sure they go where they are supposed to go. Do you have a wiring diagram? Do you have a volt ohm meter? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/16/07 at 14:21:31 On the Savage, these are the wire connections under the seat...can't be much different on the Savage40. Blk & Blk/Wht = Left Grn & Bkl/Wht = Right http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/TurnSignalWires.jpg |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/16/07 at 23:33:08 OK, right or wrong this is what I did. I took off the seat, just so I could see what I was looking at. The silfer bullet shaped housing was cracked an taped. I took of the chrome fender rails, it was easier to take them both off I have a backrest and lugggage rack. II inspected the wires as and couldn't find any broken spots. What I thought was a hole turned out to be a pinch in the insolation. With my limited knowledge, I had done all I felt I could do. I decided to put it all back together and take it to the dealer for repair. After getting it all back together I wanted to check to make sure that what was working before I tool it apart was still working. I turned it on and everything works fine. Turn signals, tail light. I don't know what I did, but it is working for now. Also on the S40 the wires to the turn signals have the two wires going to a single plug for each side, and the broken part was the plastic bullet shaped part. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/16/07 at 23:39:54 Well, Hiker, That's COOL. You have no idea how many times I have walked off into somethng & it just fixed itself while I was in there. ( The number of things that have gone completely to H#!! given the some opportunity outnumber those) Anyway, you went in to something you didn't understand & you got it. Remember that. I hope you keep reading here. If you do, I bet you start understanding what these guys are talking about. It just takes time. You will get more determined to learn if you have to pay the dealer a few times. The $$ saved will buy the tools & parts & several cold beers to get ya thru the job. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/17/07 at 06:01:29 Just what Justin said.... In the end, you did what we suggested from the beginning of this topic. Even though you had resigned yourself to go to the dealer (always an undesirable last choice), you managed to fix the problem...and THAT is what this site is all about. Next time you hear us teasing about the duct tape, you'll really know what we mean. BTW - the wires for the signals use a double connector now? Okay. Good info. A subtle new change from Savage to Savage40. Of course, you still have that broken housing. That's a shame. I believe that you have to buy the entire unit to fix that, and it ain't cheap. Maybe something will come up in the Marketplace or on eBay. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/17/07 at 08:18:18 I hope you fixed it, but I think you may have changed your problem to something else that will crop up later. Don't forget that you had this problem when something else happens. When you took everything apart, you took apart the 2 wires that were crossed. And they are either just waiting to come back together or touch something else. If you start blowing fuses, look in the same spot and maybe the problem will be more apparent. Paying the dealer to trouble shoot is very expensive. They'll charge you by hour. Better to narrow it down to a certain component and replacing the whole thing. I haven't seen very many new style signals available on ebay, but the old style goes for $20. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Greg_650 on 03/17/07 at 08:47:27 verslagen1 wrote:
You're right problems don't fix themselves, unless something was just loose and was unknowingly fixed in the process... |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by verslagen1 on 03/17/07 at 09:11:19 Hopefully it was a bad ground that caused all the tail lights not to work when running. and could have caused the lights to operate in park. Where's a tricorder when you need one? ;D |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/17/07 at 12:41:54 Now would be a great time to invest in aftermarket lights. Why pay for the stockers when there are really good looking ones out there? |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by thumperclone on 03/17/07 at 12:57:06 pinched wire... |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by Hiker on 03/17/07 at 16:43:14 What would be a good choice? I would prefer some that sit in close to the fender, and are easy to mount. I don't think I could fabricate anything right now. |
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Title: Re: electrical trouble Post by justin_o_guy on 03/17/07 at 17:56:54 You can look around on Ebay, you can look at pics of the bikes on the forum, ther's a thread dedicated to pics. I'm not sure anyone makes a "houseproof" model, so watch that house. If you find a light that particularly tickles your fancy just IM the owner & ask where the lights came from. |
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