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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> chain drive conversion /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1171585783 Message started by steveh on 02/15/07 at 16:29:43 |
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Title: chain drive conversion Post by steveh on 02/15/07 at 16:29:43 Some of you may be interested in the chain drive conversion on the 87 I have used as a donor bike: http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/802548/ http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/802549/ |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/16/07 at 10:36:12 What did the sprocket come off from? Any mods to make it fit? How many teeth? Will it line up with motor sprocket when installed? I still want to change mine to chain so I can get some top end out of it. 80mph and redlined doesn't get it!!!!If I can come up with something other than the German kit I''l go for it in a heartbeat. The German kit would give me chain drive, but it only slightly changes the top end speed. Maybe 2-3 mph. Not worth the money. If going from a 152.5 main jet to a 155 or bigger jet doesn't get me any more top end, it's back to changing to chain and sprocket ratio's. What I'm really trying to do is get less rpm at 80mph. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 02/17/07 at 11:30:25 Hutch I posted this once before in tech section, I have a 400 savage which is standard chain drive when the sprockets wor out i got new one for a gs550 you can also use the gt750 for diffrent ratio at the back, you need the spacer that sits behind the front sprocket on gs 550 or ls400 to make it all line up, hope this gives you some ideas, allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/17/07 at 23:12:51 What is the ratio of your front and rear sprockets? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 07:47:03 allan wrote:
Thanks Allan, I don't know how I missed it in the tech section. My only problem with the S-40 I have is way to many rpms at 75-80 mph. I don't like running a motor at that high of a rpm for any distance. I would gladly give up some of the over abundant acceleration I have for less rpm at 75-80. Thanks again!!! Now all I have to do is order some sprockets and a chain before spring. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/18/07 at 08:32:30 Hutch, I think the best you can do is goto bikebandit.com and get a 17 tooth front for a gs550 spoke wheel 1980 and a 40 tooth rear for the same year and model. You can play around with spacers to see what will work best for alignment. This will give you a 2.35:1 ratio. Can't find a way to go taller than that, but that's pretty tall. I'm interested to see how this whole thing pans out ;D Disclaimer: Since I haven't personally done the mod I can't verify this will work, but lots of folks seem to think it's close to a "bolt-up" operation. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 08:53:33 barry68v10 wrote:
Since the German kit is a 17 and a 50 and works out to almost the same ratio as the Stock belt drive, I figured I would go with a 17 and a 45-47. I don't want to turn it in to a complete dog on take off and acceleration. Even a 500-800rpm drop at 80mph would make me feel better. The stock ratio is about 2.94. 17/47 would be 2.76, 17/46 would be 2.70, 17/45 would be 2.64. I'm thinking maybe a 44 might be close to 500 rpm not sure. Anybody know the rpm drop from a stock 2.94 ratio to a 2.59 ratio??? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by babbalou on 02/18/07 at 09:09:20 Here's a handy tool to get ratios & rpms for the changes: http://www.kaila.net/tl125/gearing.html As for the lube, I've read a lot of good reviews on Dupont Teflon Mult-Use dry wax lubricant, which you can find in most hardware stores for about 1/2 the price of chain lube at the stealership. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 09:16:03 babbalou wrote:
I saw that post for the lube too. PJ1 blue label is quite good also. I'll check out the link. THANKS!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/18/07 at 09:22:40 Quote:
How well does your bike accelerate now in 2nd gear? No matter what you do, it won't be worse than that... 17/47 would be a pretty small change, you'd get that much from a rear tire change if you stuff a 150-90-15 back there, not even a 10% change. Most of the "overdrive" kits found on scootworks.com feature a final ratio between 2.2:1 and 2.56:1. That seems to be the sweet spot for most v-twin cruisers looking for a "highway gear." But....that's just my 2 cents and probably not worth as much ;D Keep us posted how the project goes. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 09:39:19 barry68v10 wrote:
I just went to the link and found out if I go with a 17/44 I would drop 586 rpms at 80mph, and that was saying that with the German stock ratio I was only running 5000rpm like LANCER was suggesting. Even more if I am running at 6500rpm and 80mph. The 17/44 would give me that 2.58:1 sweet spot. As far as stock gearing right now, it takes off like a rocket. I can take off in 2nd with no problem or clutch slip. And I mean a hard take off in 2nd. No problem. Like I said I think they changed the gearing again when they changed to S-40. Why else would all the S-40's top out so quick with the same mods as all the older models??? THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO EVERYBODY!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 10:39:55 Here is the break down:------------------ (new ratio) (stock ratio)--------------------------------17/45 sprocket 50@3111-------------------------------50@2799=312lessrpm 60@3733-------------------------------60@3359=374rpmless 70@4355-------------------------------70@3919=436lessrpm 80@4977-------------------------------80@4479=518lessrpm 90@5600-------------------------------90@5040=560lessrpm 100@6222---------------------------100@5600=622lessrpm 105@6500---------------------------105@5850=650lessrpm That leaves the new ratio with 650RPM left until the red line, and you are already doing 105mph. SOUNDS GOOD TO ME. Now if it works in the real world is another story.Since my motor will be running at lower rpm most of the time I think I will stick with my 152.5 main jet and see what happens with the chain conversion.I should get a lot better gas milage(60+?). I know the engine won't wear out as fast, with fewer rpm's for the same distance.I'll just keep playing with rear sprockets until I get a good compromise of acceleration and less RPM at 80mph. For anyone in terested. For every tooth that you add or subtract on the rear sprocket, you will have a change of 2.5% in your speed and rpm. For every tooth you add or subtract on the front sprocket it is about a 5-6% change. A 44 tooth rear sprocket would even be better, if one could be found. That would be nearly 600RPM less at 80MPH |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 11:52:02 Don't you have to remove the front pulley on the Savage to remove the belt? A chain would be nice because of the master link. What is the largest front sprocket that will fit? I'm rusty with chains, too. Haven't messed with them since dirt bike days. What size chain? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 12:07:08 Greg_650 wrote:
I like the pun there Greg, RUSTY CHAIN, The biggest sprocket that will fit is probably the 17. I suppose that is why the germans chose it. A 530 chain should be the right one if I remember correctly. Yeah that is what I like about chain, no shock removal, no cover removal, no pulley removal, just put in nuetral and feed it through, insert master,adjust, tighten axle,BACK ON THE ROAD. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 12:56:50 I remember "way back when..." in the dirt ridin' days, that my chains never wore out. I always kept an old can of oil and I'd just drop the whole thing in to soak between rides. It was always those expensive aluminum sprockets that got all pointy in a short period of time >:( |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by steveh on 02/18/07 at 13:57:50 I measured the sprockets that were installed on the 87: the front sprocket has 15 teeth. the rear sprocket has 47 teeth and is marked "47-530." The sprockets appear to be in reasonably good condition if anyone is interested in buying them. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 15:08:43 steveh wrote:
How much? I'll send you a PM. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 15:29:14 Greg, don't tell me you are going to convert to chain. What was it, the top end figure, less RPM, or nastalgia?? Man you mean you are going to take off that "never break" belt?? No one will ever for give you. Cept ME!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/18/07 at 16:53:19 Quote:
And me! Even though I REALLY like belts, I like to tinker even more! ;D (I'm also a fan of tall gearing) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 18:10:50 hutch wrote:
Well, of course, it is your idea, so if you want it I guess I should let you get it. Why? All the reasons that have been mentioned actually. The belt can be a spare for my spouse's. Mine's been a conversion project since the beginning, Besides, with my drag pipe, the bike would do well on top end. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 18:55:53 Greg_650 wrote:
I n the middle of all the pictures, I came up with a new breakdown, This one is the change in speed for each gear. Keep in mind I am using 6400RPM as shift point. (STOCK)------------------------------------------(17/45) 1ST 0-35-------------------------------------------- 0-39 2nd 35-55------------------------------------------ 39-61 3rd 55-75-------------------------------------------- 61-83 4th 75-90-------------------------------------------83-100 5th 90-100----------------------------------------100-111 This is the specs from the manual for stock at 6400RPM, and conversion at 6400RPM. There is a 2.5% change for every tooth you add or subtract from the rear sprocket. The stock ratio is 2.96:1 and with the 17/45 it is 2.65:1 That works out to a 10% change in RPM and speed with the new ratio. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/18/07 at 19:34:14 prices on some new steel sprockets, and you can have any combination of front and rear that you want. Does anyone know if the bolt patterns on the suzuki bikes are all the same. http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/suzuki_sprockets.htm#Suzuki%20GSXR750%20'90-'95,%20and%20530%20Conv.%20for%20GSXR1100%20'89-'98 |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 19:58:56 GREG I tried to e-mail you but it kept coming back???? Check the edit for the mph changes post I just put uptwo slots back. You will be going the wrong way with the 15/ 47 sprockets. 18/47 would work, if 18 will fit??? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/18/07 at 20:05:25 anyone thought of trying to find a smaller 5th gear sprocket and doing the swap at the transmission level. that way you still retain all of your torque, but turn fifth into an overdrive. Or am I smokin' crack and this is not possible? Bike bandit says the sprocket is a 23 tooth going to maybe 20 or even 19 might really improve things. Don't know what that would turn the fifth gear ratio into someone else can do that calc. Oh and for those with the newer 650's the 5th gear is 25 teeth. FYI |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 20:10:05 tbalam wrote:
Allan I went to the link above and there is no gt750 listed, is it called something else in the USA?? Check out the link, MAYBE I'm blind.it is getting late here. At least for us old farts. This post is for allan from manchester, but if anyone else knows, that would be cool also. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 20:17:42 tbalam wrote:
I new there was a reason the S-40's turned more r's with less top end than the Savage. My ears are still working after all. I thought I was going crazy, but I guess not. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/18/07 at 20:30:52 hutch wrote:
I was specifically referencing the GS550, I think i saw it referenced earlier. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 20:49:43 tbalam wrote:
No problem tbalam, It was Allan from Manchester England that said you could use gt750 rear sprockets, and I can't find a listing for one. Some times European models have different names for the same bike in the USA.The GS550's biggest back sprocket is 40 and I need a 44 to work. That is why I wanted to find the illusive GT750 Allen was talking about. Man I have been on this computer for 15 hours and I can't even spell any more. GOODNIGHT!!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 21:27:24 hutch wrote:
Well, actually while I've been away I've been trying to figure out where the sprockets came from and how they ended up on the Savage. So far, not any real info except that I found that the GN 400 had a 37 tooth on the rear with a 520 chain. I think that I got all confused on this post. Too many numbers. I thought that Steveh said 17/47 which is 2.76:1. But now I see 15/47. Crap. Okay. On to the question about bolt pattern... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 21:34:32 I had to go back to the "Ton" post. 1986-1988 - 4 speed ratios: 1st- 2.214 2nd-1.500 3rd- 1.095 4th- .875 1995-2005 - 5 speed ratios; 1st- 2.333 2nd-1.578 3rd-1.142 4th-.956 5th-.884 And don't forget that the primary reduction ratio changed: '86 -'88 - 1.88 with the gears 68 and 36. After that - 1.81 with the gears 67 and 37. so the later models went higher from 1-3 and lower in 4-5. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 21:52:57 . Greg_650 wrote:
LMAO, Greg, don't feel bad I'm so tired I can't spell IT. I f you get a set of sprockets for a 1980 GS550 spoke wheel, and get a 17/45, they don't have a 44 rear, the charts are still REAL close.+/- 100rpm, +/- 2-3 MPH on the other chart. With a 17/45 you have a 2.64 ratio. The sprockets cost about $50 for both, and are steel not aluminum. You can find them at the link back a few posts.Man every time I look up I see the word CRAP in your quote and start laughing again. I got to get some sleep or something. 16 hours on a computer will screw you up worse than a trip out to the dumpster. I'M GONE(in more ways than one) later Greg!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 22:00:14 Okay. I got one more silly question. Are the splines on the countershaft the same as on the other chain drive Suzukis? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/18/07 at 22:15:00 I'm back. They had two size splines, but I can't remember who said it, Allen I think, but the 1980GS550 or Ls400 front sprocket will work on the Savage, you also need the spacer. YEP , Greg it is official. Your as tired as me. Go back and look at the chart you just posted. All the gear ratio's changed the same way. The numbers are bigger for ALL gears, which means more rpms on the later Savage. I think I just got confirmation on the S-40 changing gears again. Like I figured even more r's and less top end, according to the post. All I know is I'm out of here for now. LATER |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/19/07 at 04:04:46 Yes yes and yes. If you go back to the belt vs chain posting or chain vs belt what ever it was I posted quite a bit of detail there. I am planning a chain swap this spring and here is what you want to look at/for. First the GS 550 front sprockets will fit (as most of the gs/gt s will) Now on the back I BELIEVE the GS550 rear's will also. I have both a GS550 sitting in the garage and a savage. I have measured wheels while on the bike but have not yet pulled my rear wheel. \ Short of today's GSX-R's suzuki ran 2 front splines. The savage is a 25mm major diameter with a 21.5 root with 13 splines. This covers about 85% of all suzukis on the road from about 1977-1995. As far as the size I think the 17 tooth front is right I would have to check I have the front pully and old gs sprocket laying on my garage floor right now. You can get any rear size you want for the GS series pretty much. The 550's ran a 530 chain which is plenty big for this bike. the GS750's on up were 630 chain which is a waste of weight. As far as rear sprockets, again suzuki had approximately two to three rear hub designs. This one appears to be common. Go to JTsprockets.com and you can get all the technical info you want. I have just not measured the rear pulley center hole and bolt circle off the bike but from working with it on the bike it looks good. Dennis Kirk carries JT sprockets. If for some reason you can't get what you need there go to sprocketspecialists.com and they have or will make anything you want...aluminum etc. Lastly I am a firm believer in oring chains. I used to use PJ chain lube on them but hate the sticky mess so now when I built my street fighter and put a gold side link chain on I went to chain wax. I love the stuff. Put it on a warm chain let it drie and wipe it off. Looks great and nothing sticks to it and no goopy mess flying off. hope this helps. PS: have not measured the offset of the two pulleys yet but that will tell us what kind of spacer you need in the front. I plan my swap this spring and will know more then. Also go back and find that listing I reverenced above for more details and discussion. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 05:24:27 hutch wrote:
Doh! I was comparing apples to oranges, too. Just wasn't looking at it right last night. Heck, I didn't even have a beer (maybe THAT was the problem). But hey, since I seem to be getting confused with all the numbers... What is the overall ratio between the 4 and 5 speed models, when using the Primary Reduction ratios which changed in the opposite direction? I can get the actual gear specs for each out of the SSM, but I don't have the update pages after 2000. I imagine they stayed the same until 2004, at least. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 05:46:27 smokin_blue wrote:
Good info here. Chain wax is good too. Since I don't have a belt guard, I don't really want all the goop flying off either. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 07:51:29 Greg, I went back and editted the two charts, the one for RPM's at 40,50 60mph etc, and the one showing the change in mph per gear when shifting @ 6400RPM. It seems that a 17/45 combo is the only one listed for a 1980,GS550 with spoke wheel. It still gives you a 2.647 final ratio vs 2.96 stock. Around 80MPH you will run 488 less RPM than stock. Charts are on first page and updated. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 08:07:56 hutch wrote:
Okay, buddy, maybe this will shed some light on the gearing. I went to Ron Ayers and checked part numbers for the gears for different years. For the sake of discussion, I'm gonna use the just the part numbers for the 5th Driven Gear... Year - Model - Part number 1988 - J - None 1995 - S - 24351-24B12 1996 - T - 24351- 24B13 1998 - W - 24351- 24B13 2000 - Y - 24351- 24B13 (mine) 2004 - K4 - 24351- 24B13 2005 - K5 - 24351- 24B13 Of course, we know the 4 speed models don't matter, but I went back as far as their listing went. This shows that some early 5 speed Savages had a different 5th Driven Gear in 1995. This also shows that after 1996 the same gear was used my 2000 and in the first S40 in 2005 (model K5). So, unless they changed it in 2006 just for you, then your's doesn't vibrate any more than mine ::) PS - I checked the primary and final drives too. They are the same. Hope this helps. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 08:11:54 hutch wrote:
Well, since 50 is my favorite speed, then 60 can be my future sweet spot :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 08:28:51 Greg_650 wrote:
Thanks for the info Greg. Knowing my luck they did. Ijust know it screams at 80mph and it is not running weak on fuel or breathing. She is out of r's at 80mph.and revving like a screaming banshee.I can drive through town in 5th gear@25mph, get to the city limit and just crank it on with out down shifting.I went to Dennis Kirk and they don't have the right sprockets either. I found the 17/45 combo at the link tbalam put up on the first page of this thread, $50 for both sprockets. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 09:23:19 hutch wrote:
Oh come on. You figure that the "Fickle Finger of Fate" only points at you? It gets pointed at me all the time. You have the same gears. Put in some bigger jets and a freer flowing pipe. That puppy will run better. I don't think that I ever tried to reach 80 with the stock setup. As soon as I had my break-in and initial service I bought a SuperTrapp and new jets. Quote:
That's good info. Thanks. I sorta broke the spouse in on the idea of the sprockets this morning ::) The first thing she said was, "how much?" (now all I gotta do is find 'em cheap and sneak them home...it'll be too late then) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by verslagen1 on 02/19/07 at 09:25:54 I was perusing the german site and in their tech section found microfish of parts, 'MotofichesJS1NP41B.pdf' I copied the gears from the transmission page here. # Part No Designation 2 2422124B20 PIGNON T V 2 2422124B21 PIGNON W Y 3 2423124B20 PIGNON T V 3 2423124B21 PIGNON T V 3 2423124B30 PIGNON W Y 6 2424124B11 PIGNON T V 6 2424124B12 PIGNON T V 6 2424124B20 PIGNON W Y 9 2425124B12 PIGNON 1 9 2425124B13 PIGNON 2 9 2425124B13 PIGNON 3 16 2431124B11 PIGNON 19 2432124B20 PIGNON 26 2433124B20 PIGNON 27 2433224500 PIGNON 28 2434124B20 PIGNON 29 2435124B13 PIGNON X Y 29 2435124B12 PIGNON T W 35 2751024B01 PIGNON 41 2613124B00 PIGNON As you can see, there's several part numbers for each gear. I think the letters on the right are year codes. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 09:40:06 I guess that PIGNON is Pinion, as in gear. Which gear? 5th? Besides, we're only really discussing the US models. We know were different versions elsewhere. There were a few years they weren't even available here. The Ron Ayers listings are, of course, the Ron Ayers part numbers and not Suzuki's. So it's just a reference, anyway. I don't believe there is any change between mine and Hutch's 5th gear. Hey Hutch! How about splitting your cases and checking your gears a little closer? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by verslagen1 on 02/19/07 at 10:10:21 Year codes from a VIN decoder: 1995 = S 1996 = T 1997 = V 1998 = W 1999 = X 2000 = Y 2001 = 1 2002 = 2 2003 = 3 2004 = 4 2005 = 5 2006 = 6 2007 = 7 |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 10:18:06 verslagen1 wrote:
Yep. Started a new numbering system in Y2K Mines a Y (I guess they couldn't call it a 0). Hutch's is a 6. We have only 2 models per year in the US, regular and "decaf". In Europe or Asia, I have no idea. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 10:53:07 Well, I just checked our local dealer online. They have the same microfiche and part numbers as Ron Ayers. So, I guess the part numbers ARE the Suzuki part numbers. Here's the microfiche for the K-5. You can make your own search. http://www.beavertonmotorcycles.com/fiche_section_detail.asp |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Reelthing on 02/19/07 at 11:01:08 hummm - have a quite early '95 (built in late '94) and a '02 - might should move the tach and see if the different 5th is indeed different ratio |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 11:14:20 Reelthing wrote:
Hey. Great idea. Might have a little bit of speedo error with the older one, but should be interesting. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by LANCER on 02/19/07 at 11:20:18 hutch wrote:
Please keep in mind that the sprockets are stock, but the tire is not. It is the next size larger 140/90-15 which has a diameter of 1/2-3/4" larger than a stock tire. Instead of a circumference of 77.5", the stocker is going to be about 75.9"...depending on manufacturer, because they do vary in size. Anyway, that works out to a hair over 2%. Only 120 rpm at 6000. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 11:23:07 Oh yeah...Reelthing just reminded me of something I forgot to mention.... Different tire sizes will change your actual speed, but it won't change your indicated speed since the drive is in the tranny. (Some of us may remember the days of a speedo drive on the front wheel) So, at the same rpms, a larger tire will make you go faster, but you won't know it. Did anyone mention this already? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 11:48:40 Greg_650 wrote:
Greg, my bike only had 100 miles on it when it got the Jardine muffler,152.5 main,55 pilot and KN drop in filter, and no mod needed to the white spacer cause it pull like he11. Pilot screw out 1and1/2 turns. No backfires just a nice crackle on decell. The first thing I do to every bike I have ever owned, including my first bike,Honda Sport 50, was to put a pipe on and rework carb and make it breathe, once that was done I played with the gear raios to suite my purpose. Some bikes I even had whole tire and wheel/sprocket assemblies set up for a quick swap to run trail, or run the street, just like I did with my hot rods. It now has 2000 miles on it. It pulls trough town(25MPH in 5th) with no need to down shift to have plenty of accel once it is out of town., but like I said it is screaming bloody murder at 80MPH and wide open , no throttle left, it's done. ELFINE. NADA. ALSO, for every tooth you add or subtract off the rear sprocket there will be a change of 2.5%. I added that to the two charts on the first page so the info is all together. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/19/07 at 12:03:47 anyone know if a sixth gear, i.e smaller than our fifth gear, from another suzuki model and year could be swapped in for our fifth to give an overdrive? I dont know if the splines on the shafts will line up, but i'd be willing to split the case to swap if anyone could tell me where to find an interchange catalog. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/19/07 at 12:07:38 Hey greg, where you located? I graduated from Tigard High right near there. Used to drive past Bob's all the time. Now I am on the face of the SUn in Phx. Greg_650 wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 12:16:48 tbalam wrote:
Could you UPS overnite some of that to Michigan,PLEASE!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/19/07 at 12:25:14 sorry we can't afford any it's been cold here... it was only 90 on Sat ;D ;D ;D ;D. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 12:58:04 tbalam wrote:
Today is the first day in seven weeks it made UP to 32 degrees here in my neck of the woods. 2 more months and I might get to ride????? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 13:40:55 hutch wrote:
I don't know. Since you only have 2000 on the clock, did you ride it like that during break-in? Do you have complete throttle travel? AND, as I said in the previous post, you'll need a GPS to see that change in speed, anyway :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 13:42:50 tbalam wrote:
We live off of Scholls Ferry Rd., right near the Beaverton/Tigard city line :) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 14:22:37 Greg_650 wrote:
Broke it in easy, in stages up to 1000 miles, then just drove like I normally would. I checked throttle travel, I even checked to see if the brakes were dragging.or the axles were to tight and pressing the bearings to hard. You name it, I checked it. Bike is even lighter than when stock and I only weigh 150. 80MPH that's all she wrote. With the 17/45 sprocket it works out to a 10% change and if you can find a 44 rear it would be a 12.5% change. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/19/07 at 14:58:02 Greg_650 wrote:
Nice to hear from someone back home. I get homesick all the time here, It's all brown all the time. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/19/07 at 15:04:52 Quote:
Or you could just go with that 40 rear... ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 16:22:58 barry68v10 wrote:
I'm afraid I would put to much strain on the clutch and turn it into a real dog on take off., if I went with the 40 tooth. That would be a 2.35 ratio. Since we are talking a motor with only 30Hp. Like LANCER said you need horse power with that low of a ratio. That would be a 25% change in gearing and I think it would be a little too much for the Savage. If I could find a 44, it would be 12.5%,The 45 is 10% The 44 would be close to 600RPM less at 80mph, and the 45 works out to about520 RPM less at 80mph. It would still have decent take off with either of them and increase top end buy about20-30mph , which would put me over the 100 mark. I don't care about top end, I just want less r's at 75-85mph. While I'm talking.......are you still thinking about the RE Bullet???? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/19/07 at 16:30:57 Yep. Wifey's not to warm on the idea though ;D I think I like the riding position and look of the Bullet about as well as any bike I've seen recently. Are they geared higher than the Savage? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/19/07 at 16:36:32 How much HP does a typical Savage have at 3000, 4000 and 5000 RPMs? Based on some very rough calculations, I think you only need about 20-25 hp to run 75-80 mph. If that's true, you just need to pick the ratio that gives you the power you'd need to run at that speed. You would get better mpg, but you'd also top out at that speed in "no wind" conditions. You could also calculate a 10-20% "cushion." I don't remember seeing any stock HP curves for the Savage, any help here? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/19/07 at 16:37:47 One other consideration for taller gearing, if you need to go faster, you can always downshift. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 16:59:01 barry68v10 wrote:
Yeh the RE is about $1000 more than the Savage too...makes for a hard bargaining point with the wife. The gearing is a low 1st, tall2-4 and a real tall 5th, it's a real overdrive. That's how they get70mpg. You really have to wind it out in 1st before you hit 2nd, that's how much the change is. I can do 75-80 on my RE and it is only 22hp. I found a chart once for the dyno test on a Savage but can't remember what site itwas on, I'll check this week and see if I can run across again. Good luck with the negotiations about the RE. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by verslagen1 on 02/19/07 at 17:14:10 I don't understand... If a bare a$$ed cyclist (I mean pedal) needs 3/4 HP to sustain 55 mph. Why does a motorcycle need so much more to go 70-80 mph. I had VW van, can't of had more than 30 HP, I could easily do 70-80 anytime but uphill. My savage will do 80 uphill and accelerate to get there. If I were you I'd start looking for a tranny out of a '96. And memo to self... freeway test drive mandatory! ;D No grin, no buy! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/19/07 at 17:50:55 verslagen1 wrote:
Sure would be nice to get a dealer to let you take one for a test ride. No such luck. I was happy with it because as soon as I hit the road I could feel the acceleration. I broke it in for 1000 miles with all the mods for breathing done at 100 ran great. The first time I decided to hit the highway, i lasted for 10 miles and bailed before I got ran over, or blew it up trying not to get run over. Talking about test rides my sons father inlaw couldn' believe it when the Harley dealer told him he couldn't take a test ride, but he could rent one for a day($90), but they didn't have his model for rent. NICE SKAM. The guy has road for 10 years. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/19/07 at 18:47:02 Quote:
Drag is a funny thing. A bare cyclist has a much better coefficient of drag (Cd) and less frontal area than a motorcycle. Actually, a VW van has a much better Cd than a motorcycle but more frontal area, so apparently those two things cancel out (roughly). A really aerodynamic car (Cd~.3) and relatively small frontal area only needs between 8 and 12 hp to maintain 55 mph, however it may need about 18 hp to maintain 65 mph. I've posted the equation somewhere on here before, but basically drag is a function of Cd, frontal area, and velocity squared. Cars have a definite advantage in the Cd department, while motorcycles have an advantage with frontal area. However, the equation gives only an approximation, but actual testing is the only accurate method. If you remember some of the first motorcycle speed trials, the rider wore a speedo and pointy helmet and laid on the bike with his feet straight out the back. Looked funny, but improved Cd and decreased frontal area... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Tom_R on 02/19/07 at 19:00:17 You guys should check here for sprockets, they have them for just about everything. http://www.sprocketspecialists.com/ |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 20:40:12 tbalam wrote:
Well, as you know, this time of year is wet all the time. But the summer sure will be great :) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 20:43:58 hutch wrote:
How about valve adjusts, new plugs, etc? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/20/07 at 11:51:54 Greg_650 wrote:
All covered, BTW, Greg, if you go with a 16/41 it will end up with 2.56:1, almost the same as the 17/44 (2.58:1) That gives you that 12.5% change. Those sprockets are available at the link that you looked up the 17/45(10%) sprockets on. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/20/07 at 14:09:25 In case anyone cares :o Quote:
17/44 is better than a 16/41. You want to go with the largest front sprocket that will work for your application. A 20 tooth front would be ideal, but I haven't been able to find one for the Savage. I.e. if your looking for a 2.56:1 a 20/51 would be the best from a design standpoint. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/20/07 at 15:01:35 barry68v10 wrote:
Barry, I know what you mean, it's easier to throw a chain and you get more chain slap. You really got to be on top of the chain adjustment. That is why I keep trying to find a SET from a company. All I found was one company with steel(aluminum sucks), and they don't have the 44, just the 16/41. I am going to try bikebandit and see if they have them. I had this problem with the Triumph chopper I built when I put a complete Harley dresser tire, rim and brake assembly on the back. I ended up with a Sportster rear sprocket to get the right ratio with the stock Triumph trans sprocket. I had to space the rear sprocket over cause the offset was wrong but it worked out great. Hope I get lucky and find what i'm looking for.!!! I think the reason you won't find a front in 20 is lack of room. I believe that is why the German conversion has a 17 front. Off to bikebandit I go!!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 15:31:08 The down side of a larger sprocket is a higher price and requires a much longer chain. But then a longer chain wears slower. And then a larger sprocket also wears slower. I wonder if anyone has ever busted their case with a broken chain. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/20/07 at 19:16:15 Greg_650 wrote:
Yes Greg I remember Washington well, when I took basic training in late Jan --- Feb. The land of R&R(not what you think) I believe it stood for ROCKS AND RAIN. That was my spin on it anyway.. Man Greg I just realized that alzheimers kicks in at around 56 years old. You live in Oregon if I remember right, this time. DAAAA!!!!! I love Portland, do they still have all those parks all over town??? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 21:03:19 hutch wrote:
Yep. Portland is covered with parks. There is a lot of places for outdoor activities. Walking paths and most streets have bicycle lanes. We're in the rainy season right now which lasts about 5 months. After that it is mostly dry and mild and green. All of Oregon isn't like this though. We are west of the Cascades. Here it is like a rain forest, but to the east is the high desert and it is a completely different world. It's part of what's left of the wild west out that way. Portland is a pleasant city to look at and visit...but there are social/political issues about it that we don't like. So, we are moving across the river to Washington State in the near future. Oldtimers Disease? I'll be 57 in April :) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 08:10:45 Greg_650 wrote:
Well it's good to know that Portland still has all those parks. I went there on a weekend pass from Ft. Lewis WA. in 1771. I figured by now the parks had a been turned into strip malls or some such stupid crap. I'll be 56 in May. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 08:13:30 hutch wrote:
You certainly have my respect. Thank you for your service :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 09:04:23 Well I guess bikebandit aint gonna solve my search for sprockets. I can't believe all they have is the stock 50 tooth. They got a bunch of front, and one back, and thats a OEM, how stupid!!.What was it you were saying about the " fickle finger of fate " Greg?? My son even asked me "Why is it that you can't ever find something when you want it? Aslong as I can remember that is the way it goes for you" I just tell him that is the reason I fabricate most everything myself, and that if it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. That's why I always hope for the best, but plan on the worst. You don't get disappointed that way. Looks like I go with the 16/41. I just will have to keep looking, and hope for the best. Narrowing it down to steel doesn't make it any easier, but aluminum stinks. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/21/07 at 09:56:08 Hutch, I have been trying to follow your direction here but take a look at my previously suggested JT sprockets site. here is the stock GS550 http://www.jtsprockets.com/52.0.html?&L=0&sel_uid=4789&p= These are available in Front sprocket available in: 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 teeth Rear sprocket available in: 33, 34, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50 teeth The stock 50 is found on http://www.jtsprockets.com/61.0.html?&L=0&sel_artnr=JTR814,50 If you want a 44 that also is stock for the following http://www.jtsprockets.com/61.0.html?&L=0&sel_artnr=JTR814,44 If you want to find any other tooth number and what it was stock on go to that last link and click on the dark bold tooth counts and that will take you to a listing of all suzuki's it was used on. Actually here is the grand list will all stock listings for that 530 sprocket design. http://www.jtsprockets.com/61.0.html?&L=0&sel_artnr=JTR814,34 If you can't find a dealer let me know because I know I have at least one catalog at home with JT sprockets listed in it. Lastly if you don't like these, Sprocket Secialists will make any tooth count you want in either the dreaded aluminum or good old steel. Paul |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 10:28:38 These are interesting. Has anyone actually measured the bolt pattern diameter on the Savage pulley? I'll do it if we need to... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 11:34:15 smokin_blue, thanks!! i just went to their site and found what I want(17/44). They don't have any prices??? At least they are made of high carbon steel and chrome molly for the front. I sent them a ...."querry" by e-mail to find out if the 1980 gs550ET spoke wheel sprockets will fit on a Savage. If anybody knows, they should. I told them I can come up with spacers to line up the sprockets. If they work I also asked for prices. Got my fingers crossed, and waiting for an e-mail back with the answer. Thanks again for the info!!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by slavy on 02/21/07 at 11:49:05 About the busted cases: I just finished working on a 2000 R6. The guy had it for sale pretty cheap. I went there and saw brand spankin' new Regina chain with brand spankin' new set of sprockets. The bike had steel braided brake lines, Micron exhaust and bunch of small improvements. Everything seemed pretty suspicious, so I started looking harder and there it was- big blab of JB weld above the fr. sprocket. I showed this to the guy and of course he had no idea, but he was nice enough to drop the price lower and we got a deal. Yesterday I spent the day havving the case welded and today I went for a ride. Thank You lazy bum for not changing the chain ! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 11:57:53 hutch wrote:
I swear to God some things never change, like my luck. Just got an e-mail back from JT and they said they never had anyone ask that before and haven't got a clue. No prices either. Good grief!!!I guess I'll e-mail them back and ask for the price anyway. Allen says they will work, if not I'll have to fly to Manchester, England and try some black pudding I guess. The only problem with that is that I'll be in the same country as Gillian Anderson(x-files Dana Scully) and get put in jail for Stalking. Then they will probably send me to a prison in Ireland and I'd have break out and fall in love several times with those red headed maidens over there. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 12:23:18 slavy wrote:
You did good ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 12:27:35 hutch wrote:
Sounds like loads of fun..... I recommend that you fly Jet Blue while you're at it 8) Anyway, why not use this picture and go out and measure your bolt pattern, first :P http://www.jtsprockets.com/fileadmin/Code/images/large/jtr814.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 13:05:38 Greg_650 wrote:
Yup, Jet Blue would be my first choice. Why change my luck now. I'd use the drawing and measure my sprocket to see, but it's so dark in my living room I can't find my bike....you know what I mean Greg!!! I just e-mailed JT again and they are going to send me a price for the sprockets to my door. All I have to do is get the spacer and a long piece of 530 chain. Oh, and wait for the new charge card that was sent to me 2 weeks ago and I haven't recieved yet. Hey they did send me a PIN nunber for the "phantom" card though. GO figure. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 13:08:42 hutch wrote:
New card? Great. Let's go shoppin' ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 13:23:39 Greg_650 wrote:
Sure would like to,no card. Haven't used my old one for a couple of weeks, cause i want to pay it off with the new one. I had to make a payment for the old one cause the computers went down at the new bank for 4 days and slowed everything down on the new one. Now it's floating around somewhere in the postal system, if it isn't being used by somebody else by now. Kinda reminds me of the refinance of my house that should have been done three weeks ago. They made me an appointment to sign the papers and when I got there they didn't have all the paper work done. Reschedule. I got there yesterday and the payoff figures were all wrong. Finally get it straight and sign. I get home and in the mail is a letter saying make an appointment to sign my loan papers???? Also got the PIN number for the "non exsisting" charge card at the same time.Murphys Law aint got nothing on me. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/21/07 at 15:47:20 anyone know if an 18 tooth front sprocket would fit in the savage, or would it be to big? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 16:18:52 tbalam wrote:
Don't really know. They list one for a gs550, but don't know about fit on Savage. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/21/07 at 17:44:46 I am going to ask JT sprockets for the out diameter of the 17 and 18 tooth fronts to see if they fit. I am thinking an 18/45 ratio might be a good combo, giving a ratio of 2.50. I am also hoping to find a high friction clutch and will change to tighter springs no matter what. any thoughts? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/21/07 at 18:08:24 I will check my catalogs...I know you can get those domestically. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 18:10:44 tbalam wrote:
I was think of the same thing, but I figured the German kit had the 17 for a reason,no room maybe????I don't know if you can get a better clutch,I imagine you can, but I know LANCER can get heavier springs. Lancer would be the one to ask. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/21/07 at 18:50:00 I emailed them about an hour ago, so i'll let you all know what they say. Oh and any idea how long of a 530 chain to get? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 19:12:42 tbalam wrote:
I don't have a clue, I figure I'll just buy a super long one and shorten it, if I ever get the gears. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/21/07 at 19:28:25 I went and took some measurements...I predict that a sprocket with the same number of teeth (530 chain) will fit on the front of the Savage as the current pulley. They have the same pitch, so a 20 tooth front SHOULD fit with no problem whatsoever. I don't know why the German kit only has a 17-tooth front but I'm about ready to buy a couple sprockets just to prove my theory ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/21/07 at 19:33:20 HUTCH HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!!!!!! hey someone needs to rip a rear pully off and measure it.!!!!!!!! There are two suzuki sprockets used in the late 70's early 80's one is for spoked which has been the topic of discussion with a 64mm hole and 84 mm bolt circle diameter. The other one is for mag rims with a 76mm hole and a 100mm bolt circle. I just dug up my notes and they indicate from past measurements (wheel and pulley on the bike) the savage would be a 76mm hole with a 100mm bolt circle. THIS NEEDS TO BE CONFIRMED BY SOMEONE. I just don't have time to rip mine apart right now. That said here is the good news. Both Dennis kirk and parts unlimited carry a large selection (parts unlimited is larger) of JT sprockets. Better yet it appears if the 76mm/100mm is true than there is a HUGE selection of sprockets available for you. If I can find the time tomorrow morning I can block my bike up and rip off the rear wheel and settle this once and for all. Let me know if you want me to. (PS my wrenching time is from 4:30am to 6am so let me know tonight if you get this) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/21/07 at 19:43:47 Quote:
That would be good news. I don't think you'll need to do any wrenching to find this out, I'll head out and take some measurements now... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/21/07 at 19:48:49 CONFIRMED!!! 100mm bolt circle. I guess that IS good news. Hutch, look at the cast rim sprockets and take your pick ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 20:21:06 barry68v10 wrote:
Well that is good news. So what I'm gathering now is that you need a gs550 front sprocket(both allan and smokin_blue said that) and a gs550 back, but for a cast wheel, not a spoked wheel like some one said. I know that JT listed the spoke wheel as 84mm bolt circle. I would have been bummed if I would have ordered the ones for the spoke wheel and only the front would have fit. Thanks a bunch!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/21/07 at 20:41:08 smokin_blue wrote:
smokin_blue, don't tear your bike apart, it has been confirmed. Savage has the 76mm hole and 100mm bolt pattern. Thank you for the offer and all the help. Much appreciated. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 21:57:20 So that picture that I got from the JT site was wrong at 84 mm? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/21/07 at 22:32:49 other news for those wanting larger fronts. THe front sprocket has 21.6/25 spline dimensions. sprocket specialists have a front that is 21.6/25 that are for another suzuki models. same overall dimensions but a few different holes. see below same dimensions: http://www.jtsprockets.com/fileadmin/Code/images/large/jtf519.jpg This is the Savages gs550: http://www.jtsprockets.com/fileadmin/Code/images/large/jtf513.jpg so if you use the other models from the 519 sprocket the gsxr1100 you can find a front in sizes from 11-20 so if a 20 fits then that is where to find it. I spent a couple hours searching for this and this is the only place that has above size 18 fronts. http://www.sprocketspecialists.com/SearchResults.aspx?txtSearch=514 Just thought you'd all like to know. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/22/07 at 04:23:08 Thanks for the confirmation. It is only about 20deg this morning so my would be frozen fingers thank you. A couple of items to note. The 44 tooth rear is very hard to find but Parts unlimited does carry the JTR816-44 for $40.95. Now for the front. Watch the tips of the teeth as you get bigger. I have a 17th laying on top of a savage front pulley and the OD's are getting close. You also need to check how much the chain plates will stick out past the sprocket teeth. I know there is not alot of clearance with the savage cases so check carefully. I would size the front sprocket first and then size the back. If you end up in a total jam let me know and I can slip the 530 chain off the gs550 and slip my 17 and chain on the savage as I have the front pulley off the bike right now. Lastly, keep in mind the GSXR's were all 532 chains depending on the year. If you grab a GSXR front sprocket make sure you get one for a 530 conversion (as Tbalam pointed to in his link). This sprocket is common as most people went to the 530 as soon as they had to replace parts. I did on my fighter. Another thought, if you want I can measure the OD of the 17 tooth I have and then wrap the chain around it and get the od of the side plates of the chain. From there we can calculate what any other size would be as it is a straight ratio when dealing with sprockets. Let me know and I can run the measurements if you want and compare to my stock savage pulley. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/22/07 at 06:41:08 "I can measure the OD of the 17 tooth I have and then wrap the chain around it" that'd be great, when you get time. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 08:07:41 Greg_650 wrote:
Greg, you were doing the same as me and following mis information about needing them from a spoked wheel. Go back to JT and type in search for GS550 E T, but when it comes up, go to GS550 cast wheel for 1980 and you will be in the right place. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 08:24:28 Well now I'm getting picky. Does anyone know how the od dimension of the 43-45 tooth rear sprocket compares to the stock pulley od. If it a lot smaller than the stock pulley, the belt guard will look goofy and will have to be reworked or removed for cosmetic reasons. SORRY!! I'm just finicky when it comes to the LOOK. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 08:59:40 I just went through the hassle of ordering my sprockets. When I called JT they told me to call PARTS Unlimited. When I called Parts Unlimited they told me they only sell to dealers. Parts Unlimited found their closest supplier to me, which happened to be the Honda shop in my home town. After making sure the sprockets were for a 1980 GS550 ET with cast wheel, the total with tax came to $58.26 and they will be in on wednesday 2-28-07. Now all I have to do is order the GS550 front sprocket spacer from the suzuki shop and get a long 530 chain and I'm in business. THANK YOU ALL for the concentrated effort. I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers in this process. I still plan on doing a rpm check at 80mph before swapping out to chain, to see if my ears are decieving me or if it IS maxed out at 80.THANK YOU AGAIN ALL!!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/22/07 at 10:08:17 Hutch, A couple of things...I can measure a 50 tooth 530 on the gs550 I have in the garage and then calculate the diameter for you of the 43 and 44 tooth. I do believe they will be much smaller but my eye may be deceived by the width/mass of the pulley. Also, just curious, why didn't you just order your front sprocket and chain from parts unlimited also? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/22/07 at 10:11:19 tbalam wrote:
give me a couple of days and I should have this for all of you. Man, if all this had been 3 months from now I would have a whole lot more data for everyone. I just haven't launched into the project yet.........something about the furniture I promised to build my wife before the last project bike went a year and a half longer than planned. :) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 10:36:53 smokin_blue wrote:
I did order the sprocket SET(front and rear) from them through the Honda shop. I was told on the phone by Parts Unlimited that I could not order directly from them. As far as the chain goes I have no idea how long a chain I need, so when I swap them out, I will run 2 miles to the Honda shop and get the chain. It seems simpler. Thanks for the help!!!All I need to order from the Suzuki shop is the spacer for the front sprocket. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 02/22/07 at 10:55:19 sorry I,m a bit behind everyone here, things to do. here some pic's of the ls400, Hutch the gt750 is the 3 cylinder 2 stroke water cooled some call it a kettle others water buffalo. any way heres the pic's http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/02/22/bikepics-809710-800.jpg http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/02/22/bikepics-809708-800.jpg http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/02/22/bikepics-809711-800.jpg http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/02/22/bikepics-809712-800.jpg the front spocket is 17t I dont think a bigger one will go in, the spacer is 10mm deep & 40mm wide. please note this is the original set up of the ls400, this chain has 136 links + split in it. allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/22/07 at 11:43:24 hutch wrote:
what sprocket set did you end up going with? 17/44? or 18/45? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 12:26:29 tbalam wrote:
I went with a 17/43 for a 2.53:1 ratio which is a 14.5% reduction from the stock 2.96:1 I figure if it turns the bike into a dog on take off, I can always buy another sprocket of 44 or 45 for $40 and get what I want. The 44 would be about 12.5% reduction and the 45 about a 10% reduction. Now that allan has given me the specs for the spacer I will be calling the Suzuki dealer and ordering it, and a second horn that I want to mount on the other side of the bike at the neck.Thank you allan for the specs on the spacer!!!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/22/07 at 14:22:26 Hey guys, sorry about the mix-up. I don't know why I thought the spoked version sprocket was the right one :-[ Glad we got it straightened out! Happy wrenching Hutch. I'm sure you'll look like this ;D cruizin the highway with your new ratio. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Reelthing on 02/22/07 at 14:30:43 hutch wrote:
once you get the Suzuki part number for the spacer post it for us please |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 14:56:35 Reelthing wrote:
Hopefully there will not be a dozen different ones, but it doesn't sound like it. I will definately post the number.When this is test proven I'll have to try to post all the info in one place in the tech section. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/22/07 at 15:04:52 someone earlier mentioned the mechanics of the gears and that certain combinations were better than others for a given ratio, can someone elaborate? It had to do with a 17/45 being better than 16/43 or something like that. also, look to ebay they have 530 chains in a variety of sizes for relatively cheap. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/22/07 at 15:32:49 Reelthing wrote:
I'm hoping that someone will post ALL of the part numbers and their sources ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/22/07 at 15:32:51 A larger front sprocket will be less likely to throw a chain, and your chain will run cooler because it will be traveling slower over the larger sprocket than it would over the smaller one. You will also not have as much chain slap, which is the movement of the chai up and down on the bottom of the sprockets. The closer you can equalize the size of the front and rear sprocket the better. You are limited by your preferred final ratio. That is why I am going with the 17/43 first. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/22/07 at 18:17:31 In addition to everything Hutch explained, the angle each link has to "bend" around the front sprocket is reduced the larger the front sprocket is, and it will increase the degrees of "wrap" where the chain actually has contact with the front sprocket, thereby distributing the load. As Hutch said, the simple answer is the sprockets and chain will last longer with larger sprockets. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by steveh on 02/22/07 at 18:31:43 Can I help with the sprocket and rear wheel from the 87 that started this thread? I've got the wheel off the bike and the sprocket off the wheel. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/23/07 at 04:40:57 How many teeth? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/23/07 at 04:42:28 hutch wrote:
Hutch, My 50 tooth measures out with a tip diameter of basically 10" so using that ratio a 44 tooth should be 8.8" and a 43 tooth should be 8.6" add .210" per side for how far the side plates stick past the major od. It will be quite a bit smaller than the 12" pulley. I have to laugh becuase being a chain guy I have always thought the savage pulley looked way way too big. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/23/07 at 04:49:40 tbalam wrote:
Here is what I found. A 15 tooth has a major od of 3.32". that would indicate a 17 tooth should be 3.76". You need to add .210" per side for the chain side plates for a total diameter of 4.18". The stock front pully is 4.32 at the flange (3.95" major) with only about .250" clearance to the cases. This said a 17 should give about .400" clearance. Now an 18 tooth should be 3.98" to the tips with 4.4 to the od of the chain when wrapped. This would leave about 3/16 (.180") clearance to the cases. Frankly I would say that is the absolute limit. I need to review my previous ratios but I had been planning a 17 tooth sprocket. good luck all!1 PS: All of those who ordered parts should confirm these measurements when you get actual parts! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 08:23:54 smokin_blue wrote:
Thanks smokin_blue, I definately am glad I ordered the 17. Rubber rubbing on case not bad, chain rubbing on case very bad. On decell you always have that chain raising up on the sprocket, unless your chain is as tight as a rubber band.I know what you mean about the back pulley OD, it looks like it belongs on a hill climber, or that you could get a flat and ride home on the pulley. It looks like I will have to come up with a rework on the guard, or run with out it. Anything over a 17 tooth would definately be treading on the ice. Thanks again!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 13:17:17 allan wrote:
It never ends allan, I now have my sprockets ordered. I call the Suzuki dealer 50 miles away and he tells me there is no spacer behind the sprocket on a 1980 GS550. He looked it up for both 550 models. No spacer. He was real busy and told me to go online and look for my self on their web site. He was right NO SPACER. They dont even list a LS400, because they weren't exported to the US I guess.Any suggestions allen or anyone?? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Savage_Rob on 02/23/07 at 13:50:47 ;D I like belt drives. ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Reelthing on 02/23/07 at 13:59:07 hutch wrote:
handfull of the locking washers - they're splined just not very thick |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 14:12:35 Savage_Rob wrote:
LMAO,It seems there always is a price to pay when you want to get what you want, and not take what you are given. That is the exact reason why choppers that are hand built, cost so much.Any one who has reworked a part to MAKE it fit knows. I have built bikes(and other things) out of so many different parts from different manufactures, that I had to make a list of what year this was, what it came off from and so on. That is what they mean by custom, that is for sure. My problem is that I am never satisfied with any thing until I do some custom work or improve something somewhere. Individualality I guess. If everybody was satisfied with what they bought to ride or drive from the factory, we would never be able to find our vehicle in the parking lot. I could just see a world where the only car made was a Puke green VW Bug. Wouldn't that be a drag??? Good greif I just thought of something worse than that. What if all the females in the world looked like Brittany Spears with her head shaved. She looks like UNCLE FESTER on CRACK. YUK!!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Savage_Rob on 02/23/07 at 14:27:25 I was just "stirrin' the pot". I do actually like belt drives overall but I wish they were as simple as chains to remove/replace. Oh well. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/23/07 at 15:28:05 Savage_Rob wrote:
I'm simply changing so that my spouse has a spare belt :) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 15:38:02 Reelthing wrote:
If all else fails, sounds good. Probably cost less too!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/23/07 at 15:53:18 41: ENG SPROCKET SP [25X32X18.6] (http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/oem_schematic_view~schem_dept_id~998437~section_dept_id~1~section_dept_name~OEM+%28Stock%29+Parts~dept_type_id~2~model_dept_year~1980~model_dept_mfr~Suzuki~model_dept_id~987855~model_dept_name~GS1000ET.asp) hey hutch, try the spacer here #41 you should be able to cut it down to 10mm, and it's 4 bucks. Its 25X32X18.6 could you have one machined from aluminum? i'll keep looking. I found a japenses parts dealer that states the chain on the ls400 was 110 links. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 16:26:42 tbalam wrote:
Sure would be nice if just for once you could find a sight that tells you the size of the spline instead of everything else or tells you nothing.I guess that is the next question. Is the spline the same for the transmission on the gs1000 and the Savage? This is like starting over. I know all this for Harleys and most British bikes, but not for Jap bikes. Thanks for looking.I haven't ate for 24 hours so I got to take a break. later Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/23/07 at 16:49:34 I dont think this one is splined the inner dia. is 25mm which should fit over the splines. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/23/07 at 17:15:00 i just got a wild hair and took my front pulley off. there is a spacer with the exact dimensions as mentioned earlier behind the pulley. possible no spacer needed. by the way it is not splined. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 02/23/07 at 18:01:09 Quote:
I guess that blows holes in the whole "no spacer" thing for the Savage then huh? ??? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 02/23/07 at 18:01:25 Here is my two bits. Most all suzukis run a spacer/collar on the counter shaft. Not sure why. The oil seal runs on this collar. It was common that the GS's and TS's would leak oil there when the counter shaft sprocket nut loosens up. What you need to do to determine if you even need a spacer is this. 1. Pull your front sprocket and measure from the face of the pulley closesest to your engine to the machined face of the pulley where the shaft goes through. 2. Now pull your rear pulley and measure from the same face (tire side) to the mounting face. 3. Subtract approximately 1/32-1/16" from measurement #2. (This is because the rear pully flange is about 1/32-1/16" wider than the front's. 4. Subract #1 fromt #3. If the number is positive this is the thickness of the spacer you need in the front. If you get a negative number then you would have to space out the back sprocket. Personally from looking at them (with out having measuring them) I would guess you won't need any spacer. What I did up above was look at the offset of each pulley with out calculating where each center line is. There would be other measurements you could use but I thought this would be the easiest. Lastly any spacer that is needed would not need to be splined. There is no need for it. Just pinch it down with the sprocket and nut. Let me know if you have questions. I can still rip mine apart if all else fails! Paul |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 18:53:46 tbalam wrote:
Thanks for doing that for me tbalam. It is the same 10mm thick and 40mm OD?? This is already on the Savage??? I won der why the one allan from England shows in his picture is splined. May be so it wont tear up the shaft face? I don't know. I guess what I'll do is just put the sprockets on and see if they line up. If they don't, I'll worry about it then. Smokin_blue, don't tear your bike apart, tbalam aready has and says there is a spacer behind the Savage sprocket already. Maybe I won't need to find one. Thank you for the offer. May be the spacer on the ls400 is the only one that is splined like on allan's in England. It shows it clearly in his post. Thanks again for the help and offers .......to everybody involved. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/23/07 at 19:23:59 yep 10mm x 40mm although i am using a centimeter tape measure, and not a micrometer, so it's not a perfect measure ment, but i am within a mm. using smokin's method the front is 19mm and the rear is 15-16mm ( i didn't take off the pulley and used the tape) so it appears that a 4-5mm spacer needs to be put behind the rear sprocket. again this is not perfect, but is close. for those keeping track: 530 chain close to 110 links $40-50 (ebay) sprocket front: gs550 (teeth of choice) $20 Sprocket rear: gs550 mag wheel (teeth of choice) $30 4-5mm spacer behind the rear sprocket. $5 (at the most) total cost for chain conversion: $90-100 other than that looks to be close to bolt on. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/23/07 at 19:43:04 Tbalam, that's about what I came up with for price if I didn't need to buy a spacer for the front.I've spaced back sprockets over(Triumph with harley backwheel assemble) so that is no big deal. I plan on putting it together with the cheap chain first and when all the gear ratios and bugs are sorted out, I'll go with the expensive o-ring. Why chop up an expensive chain,right? That would add about $70-$100 to the total cost. They want $260+ for the German kit plus S&H from Germany. Besides........aint this fun?? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 02/23/07 at 21:22:01 check ebay for the chain you can buy an oring for 40-70 bucks easy, or an x ring chain for a few bucks more. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 19:26:14 We better back up and listen to Smokin_Blue on this one. I too wanted to check the spacer, and it is part of the drive shaft oil seal. Oil seal on the outside and o-ring on the inside. It is even sort of keyed on the transmission side and measures right at 21 MM long. That little ring on the outside is where the oil seal runs, so that should tell you how much is visible. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/PulleySpacer_1963.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/PulleySpacer_1966.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 02/27/07 at 19:55:09 Greg_650 wrote:
It's looking to me that when this part is fully seated that there will be 10mm sticking out, just like we need. Might have to shim back sprocket, I'll find out once I get sprockets tomorrow and get around to freeing up a jack. If the sprockets show up that is.Smokin_blue method will work and so will laser.tool I made.Thanks for the pics Greg Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 02/28/07 at 10:54:46 hutch wrote:
I'll be putting the spacer back in for a photo anway, and I'll measure it for sure. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/01/07 at 21:49:08 Hey Hutch, Here's the measure. It is 9 mm from the seal retainer on the drive shaft....or add 1 mm from the seal. Also, I have no idea what those notches are for. All that I can see up in there is a bearing. The spacer spins on the shaft. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Spacer_2085.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/02/07 at 03:51:15 I've gone from a 43 to a 46 on the back of KLX (about 7% lower), loads more fun and she is still geared for the "ton". Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/02/07 at 10:29:16 Greg_650 wrote:
That seems about what will be needed. 10mm. On the older models and the ls400, there was probably just a spacer without the added length going up inside the case. I have the feeling they did that to help with oil leaking problem. The two knotches probably run on the balls in the bearing, which eliminated the need for the spline. When the front sprocket pushes the spacer against the bearing balls it locks in and rotates.Thanks for the pics again Greg. All I need now is to get a 32mm socket and get to it. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 12:52:55 hutch wrote:
BTW - If you didn't know, the easiest way to break the pulley nut loose is to stick a broom stick through the pulley and let the stick chock up against the shocks. It can go up against the bottom of the swingarm to tighten it |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/03/07 at 09:49:26 I don't know if anybody else has noticed a pattern emerging here or not, but if you have been following this thread and S-40 or 883?, then you should. As I said in the beginning, the reason I want to change to chain is because my bike accelerates like a rocket but has an 80mph top end with the motor screaming. Just like a drag car is set up to accelerate to it's peak in a certain distance. I will say it again, I have beat 3 sportsters 0-60. My son's father-in-law was so bummed he spent $1000 more on his sporster to beat me. The other two guys didn't probably appreciate giving me $20 a piece either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my bike is different IN SOME WAY than most. With this chain conversion I hope to make a compromise of decent acceleration and lower rpms at 75-80 mph. Gone will be the days of eating sporsters, but at least I know it is true, and so does three sporster owners. I want to thank everybody again for all the help, and I will be posting pictures and part numbers for anyone interested. It will be a while before I get to road test it(2 months) thanks to Michigan weather. Hopefully by then I will have my cables for my new handlebars. LANCER CHECK YOUR PM'S. Just kidding, after what you been through, I'd take a loooong vacation, or get drunk. Thanks again to EVERYONE!!!!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 06:15:51 Hey. You can't end this topic yet. Where are the photos of the chain conversion? Just cause you ain't ridin', is no excuse for not posin". |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/04/07 at 07:05:12 http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/03/04/bikepics-819440-800.jpg there are 2 spacers 1st one is in the pic Greg has done 2nd one fits onto the splines as in my pic 10mm, if you measure the belt pulley the splined section it is approx 20mm deep ie 10 mm spacer & 10mm sprocket you coud use the tab washers as these are splined (mentioned elsewhere) there are some front sprockets out there that have a 5.mm spacer built into them but as yet cannot find one in uk at 17t largest seems to be 16t, do not try to fit 18t with 530 chain as it is very close to caseing, and I mean close 2mm,, .pic shows spacer not tightened up at moment just so you can see it allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 07:09:21 Greg_650 wrote:
Don't worry Greg, I'm waiting for my son to get here and hold the bike while I crack the tranny nut loose. I don't want to rock the bike off the kick stand and watch it go through the front window. It will be a while before it is done. I don't move to good with these legs. Setting on the floor to work about locks me up. Can't wait to get heat and electricity in my new garage. The air hoist I have is nice, but not when freezing. I'll be posting pictures and part numbers when done. I'll have to wait until it is nice(2months) to see if I am satisfied with the 17/43 gear ratio, but I can always change the back sprocket until I get what I'm looking for. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 07:21:38 allan wrote:
It looks like I still have to find that Phantom spacer. There isn't one on the 550 and where I'll ever find one for a ls400 I don't know. Looks like a hand full of tab washers. It's always something!!! If my kid ever gets here I'll know real quick.Thanks allan!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/04/07 at 07:46:15 hutch wrote:
I dont think it matters about the splines as when its locked up it wont know so you just need a 10 mm spacer that is a good fit over the shaft I would use ally as it's softer so should not damage anything allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/04/07 at 10:22:57 I know everyone is focusing on the spacer because the 450 version has one....but are the cases the same on that bike as the 650? It is possible for the little brother to require one and the big brother not to. Just a thought? Steveh, did your conversion bike have an extra spacer behind the front sprocket? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/04/07 at 10:50:36 smokin_blue wrote:
have swapped this on my 650 motor and you do need spacer for it all to line up only difference I can fnd is bore as I'm actually swapping out the barrel, piston, head & cover to convert to 650 may need to alter generator & cdi as there is some difference in the wiring, will let you all know if it works allan |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 11:11:42 After spending three hours looking for a spacer for the ls400, I gave up. Nobody even lists parts for them. If they exist in the world, why can't you get a part for one in the US. I guess if you ever brought one home from Europe you would be screwed for finding parts.I even tried looking on UK sites, for get it, I'll make the F'k'n thing. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 11:31:13 hutch wrote:
Great. I wanna see this mod that's been talked about for so many years....this is cool. And BTW...You didn't read my little trick for breaking that pulley nut loose, did you? You could have it done before he gets there. Wouldn't want him to think that Dad is helpless would you? How do you reckon I took mine off :o PS - I know about the leg thing. I can stand and walk all day, but working on the floor can be a killer on the knees. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 11:32:16 allan wrote:
This is cool. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 12:01:54 Greg_650 wrote:
I'm almost tempted to buy the German kit, just to get the spacer and chain, and have a useless 50 tooth sprocket and a spare 17 tooth front. $265 + shipping sucks. Iwish I could stand or walk all day. Standing=1hour, Sitting =1hour, Walking=200yds, I'm done, got to lay down for an hour to get the blood flowing and stop the pain. Now we know why I don't do long distance cruises anymore, and I have to be home to cook my own food, since I can't eat anything cooked in veggie oil. Pretty much blows all fried food,fish, fries, chicken, onion rings, no mayo, no green veggies. I haven't ate outside my house in 7yrs. now SUCKS. Should have just kept drinking and I wouldn't have had ten operations for blood clots. I'd still be making $55,000 a year instead of $25,000 between SSD and a small GM pension,eat anything I want, and be in a lot better mood. That's what I get for trying to get my act together. No wonder Dad said good guys finish last. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 13:47:41 hutch wrote:
Yeah, I was a machinist and toolmaker for quite some time. Spent a lot of time turning handles on Bridgeports and Harding lathes....until I got fed up with job shops and layoffs. Then I went back to school and made a career change, which was good for another 11 years until the layoffs began again...and here I am. Manufacturing sucks but I sure did enjoy those little "governemnt jobs". Would have knocked out a spacer at lunch time :) Broke 2 broom handles? Cool. Though I admit that I cheated and used the handle off my jack ;D I just thought that broom handle was easier to get. Your pulley is too tight anyway. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 15:15:15 I know what you mean about goverment jobs. In a matter off 2 days, on breaks I would make up a set of forward controls for my Triumph or any other bike. When I got out of the service I was 20. I kept putting in ap's to GM, but they were only hiring minorities and woman. My sister came back to Michigan from out of state and hired right in. It took me 7 years to get hired,at 27years old. I did learn a lot working at machine shops, tool and die shops, and welding shops, before I got into GM. When I got in the first thing I did was put in for skilled trades. Took all the tests and passed. One problem. All the minorities and woman got points ADDED to their scores, which meant they went to trade school before I could. GEE aint that fair. To make a long story short, I never got into the trades for the 20 years I worked for GM. Just worked on the line. When I finally got to work on the machine floor, I quit drinking and got my first blood clot of the ten to follow over 3 years. The doc's had to turn me into a "bleeder" with all the meds, and GM said "sorry we have no job for you in your condition" SEE YA. Had to sell the family farm, all but my house and 6.66 acres. What I now call my own private he!!. Worked from the time I was 10 to get that farm. Gone!! one year after I inherited it.I planned on having the checks for the last 10 years at GM to myself, without sharing them with freind of the court. No such luck, six months is all I managed before GM threw me out. Had to sell everything to save the family house. What were you saying about the "fickle finger of fate" Greg?? I had a religeous lady ask me at GM why I never smiled. Itold her that if she had walked in my shoes for 30 years she would know."Nothing can be that bad" she said. I wrote out a list of what had went wrong in the last 3 months, divorce, mother, neighbor, and 4 close friends dying plus everything else. When she read it she just handed it back and said she would pray for my strength. I told her to multiply that three months by ten and you have my 30 years on this earth. Now I'm 56 and nothing has changed. All my aunts, uncles, sister, the whole family has the same luck. I sure wish I knew which one of my ancesters ticked off the gods and started this thing, I'd dig the idiot up and slap the crap out of him. Well I guess my Favorite aunt won't have to worry about her luck anymore, I just got the call that she passed away at noon yesterday. Got to go. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 18:33:52 Update!!! Just got another call. A good friend of mine just passed also. Funerals are the same day, same time, 100 miles apart. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/04/07 at 19:10:47 Sorry to hear it hutch. Peace and strength during this time. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/04/07 at 19:40:40 tbalam wrote:
Update to the update. Just got another call. Seems my cousin in Colorado,who was like the big brother I never had, called his mother, my aunt Althea, to tell her he has terminal cancer at about the same time my aunt Donna passed right next door. My aunt Althea turned to tell my uncle Russ and tripped over the dog, fell and broke her arm. Across the street from my aunt who passed lives my other aunt Gertrude. When the EMT's arrived at my aunts house that passed, my aunt Gertrude went out on the porch to see what was up and fell and broke her hip.This funeral is gonna look like a invalid convention. This all happened within 3 hours. What was I saying about the family "luck". Kinda makes me want to crawl under the covers and wait for the black cloud to pass by. Tbalam thank you for your thoughts. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 04:55:51 What about the picture of the ST 400 that is mentioned in the Marketplace? It's listed on eBay. It says it is a 1999, and it is also chain drive.... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/05/07 at 07:10:28 Greg_650 wrote:
Isn't this fun!!!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/05/07 at 07:51:28 I just tried something. Since these bikes seem to only exist in England, I went to the biggest parts stocking dealer for Suzuki there.It's called REDCAR MOTORCYCLES. located in the Midlands. They are suppose to be able to get hard to find parts for ANY Suzuki. I filled out a request form and told them what I need, right down to the thickness and OD dimensions. I made sure I told them that it was the outermost spacer that goes against the sprocket and that it was splined for the trans shaft. They are suppose to e-mail me back. I will let you know what happens. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 07:55:50 Yeah. It's interesting. The St 400 frame isn't even close to the LS either... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/05/07 at 08:37:30 Greg_650 wrote:
I just thought of one more thing I could do if it comes down to it, and it would be stronger than the stack of tab washers. Guess what the thickness of a front sprocket with the splines is? You guessed it 10mm. All I have to do is cut one down to 40mm OD and I have a spacer. Just have to order another front sprocket for $15. I hope I can get the OEM spacer from UK, but the cut down sprocket sounds like the next best idea.It will probably cost more to ship the part from UK than it would to buy a new sprocket after I cut down the first one for a spacer. I'll find out when(and if) they e-mail me back from England. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/05/07 at 09:44:02 I am really struggling with the LS400 spacer set up (more so the need for it on the LS650). I tore my rear wheel ('97 LS650) off this morning and measured the front and rear pulley's to the mounting surface on each using a parallel and a digital caliper. Checking them two different ways I come up with an offset difference of only 0.6-1.2mm which is .024" -.047". NOT MUCH! I personally don't think any spacer is needed behind the sprocket. That said I am trying to figure out why the LS400 would have such a spacer. What I do think is needed (at least on the 650) is a spacer out board of the sprocket since the threads don't go down the shaft far enough. This could be true for the LS400 also. That would allow them to use the same counter shaft whether it was a belt or chain set up. Based on that thinking it wouldn't supprise me that suzuki put splines on it so that there was no chance of it turning and working the nut loose. I can tell you from having both GS's and TS's even with splined lock washers (standard bent tab style) up against sprockets those nuts will still work loose. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/05/07 at 10:15:30 smokin_blue wrote:
Blue I can assure you that the spacer is needed. as said before have tried this on the 650 motor with a straight edge across the 2 sprockets and they dont run true, I will try this again tomorrow as I'm waiting for bearings for the wheel, and get some pic's. Hutch redcar m/cycles are good I get a lot of my stuff from there, got a slide &diaphram from them when I 1st got this 400 and they do list the model as does nightingales in Rugby they are on ebay.uk allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/05/07 at 10:26:26 allan wrote:
Thanks Allan. If Redcar can't get it ,I will try Nightingales. If all else fails I will cut down the front sprocket OD and use it for a spacer, and just get a new sprocket for $15. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 11:17:55 hutch wrote:
What would happens if you made it a dual sprocket..like some of those old old bikes were? You could put a thin spacer between the 2 sprockets for chain clearance, and then you'd just have to worry with changing the rear sprocket, OR you could mount 2 sprockets on the rear. Make it a quick change setup. Crazy thought, but it is a thought :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/05/07 at 17:47:54 I was looking at the front pulley it looks to have a spacer built in. I'll take a pic next time i'm in the garage. what are the toothed washer's you all keep talking about? I guess i haven't run across them yet. Also for all of you who are going to do the chain conversion keep an eye out on ebay. I just picked up a rear 43 sprocket for 15.99 with shipping, new. I'll start lookin for a spacer too. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/05/07 at 18:09:41 tbalam, The toothed washer is the standard suzuki lock washer on most all their counter shaft sprockets. It is a flat soft steel washer with teeth on the ID that fit over the splines of the counter shaft. You slide it up against the sprocket and then tighten the nut. The last thing you do then is carefully bend down one side of it so it is flat and tight against one face of the nut. This "locks" the nut and keeps it from turning and coming loose. Over all but I have seen them work loose if it is not flattened good and tight against the nut. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 19:08:46 Just as Smokin says... Here it is in it's virgin condition before being bent. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/PulleyParts.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/05/07 at 19:34:11 Thanks, it seems youd need 15 or so to get the requisite offset. any reason we can't use a 1" I.D. wheel spacer that is 10mm? I guess the real question is, is there an advantage to having a splined spacer? or would something like these work. http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=292 |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 19:41:44 tbalam wrote:
I don't see any reason a non-splined spacer won't work. After all the one under the drive shaft oil seal isn't splined either. The washer's just splined to keep the nut from turning. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/05/07 at 20:25:18 I think i am going to try one of these. http://www.jpcycles.com/productdetail.aspx?PID=220-142&cs=Harley&GID=27E9685E-C67C-4842-93AC-27792DE26794&store=&page=&search= if you get a 1" ID x.375 x 1.5 OD, that equates to a 25.4mm x 9.525 x 38.5 OD that is very close to what we will need. I think if I add a splined washer for good luck i should be close to the 10mm we need. all of these specs are with <.5 mm, with the exception in the width, which is not as critical. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/06/07 at 04:09:54 allan wrote:
Valid procedure as long as you have truely aligned your wheels first using string or such otherwise a very small error in rear wheel alignment is magnified by the straight edge and the distance to the front sprocket. (I never trust the rear swingarm marks. I align mine once and then count number of flats I turn the rear adjusters after that when adjusting the rear adjusters. Hopefully Redcar can get him the parts he needs. Paul |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/06/07 at 08:18:29 smokin_blue wrote:
Wishing and hopin, don't get ya nothin. Bullocks mates. Redcar is a bust, No got. Just e-mailed Nightingales and Redcar gave me another leed. Robinson Foundry UK. We will see what happens with them. The ground down front sprocket is looking better all the time. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/06/07 at 11:46:49 Hutch sorry to here about Redcar if you go to robinson foundry they will want a vin no, I can send you my 400 one if you need it, allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/06/07 at 13:45:36 allan wrote:
Nightingales was a bust also. Robinsons asked for a vin and I didn't give one, but it didn't matter. They e-mailed me back and informed me that the LS400 was never listed as a UK model, only the LS650. NO PARTS AVAILABLE!!!!Looks like I cut down my front sprocket, and order another one. If I weren't so picky I would just make a spacer, but if the factory one was splined, that's what I want. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/06/07 at 14:13:37 I think I will order a jt front sprocket with 14 teeth. It might be small enough that I won't need to grind it down for chain clearance, and if I ever come up with the right spacer I can use 14 with the 43 back to end up with a 3.10 ratio. Stock belt is 2.96 so I could run almost stock ratio or my other ratio when ever I want. We will see when I get it. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by justin_o_guy on 03/06/07 at 19:00:57 If ya don't have a straight edge that will fit on the sprockets, use a string. Pulled tight, they make as straight a line as any straight edge. The belt will hold it on the front sprocket. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/06/07 at 19:12:11 Quote:
Just for clarification a 3.10 takes you the opposite way you wanted to go, right? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/06/07 at 20:05:45 barry68v10 wrote:
You are correct. The 3.10 would be real close to the 2.96 original ratio. This way I could just pull the front cover and either run "almost stock" or change to the 2.53 Highway ratio when ever I want, in just a few minutes. All I would need is 2 chains, one for each combination, and a few spare tab washers for locking the trans nut. The more I thought about it, I decided to also get a 13 tooth to grind down for my spacer. That way I won't have to keep looking for that "phantom" spacer. This will give me everything I need to do the job the first time, and should be as good as the original. Maybe! Time will tell. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/06/07 at 22:05:36 So you are good to go now? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/07/07 at 06:20:59 Greg_650 wrote:
Yup Greg, going to order 13 and 14 tooth today. Will take a week to get them. Maybe by then I can get the nut off the front pulley. Everything should work out if "The Fickle Finger of Fate" stays away. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 08:09:41 hutch wrote:
That nut is STILL on the pulley? Try your jack handle this time ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/07/07 at 11:46:15 Greg_650 wrote:
Yup still there. 150psi, 1/2 inch impact won't budge it. I ran the air hose from the garage to the house to try it, no go. Breaker bar with jack handle, no go. I'm about ready to dig a path through the snow to the garage so I can roll the bike out there and heat the nut up with the torches. About the only option left. I just got back from my aunts funeral and aint in the mood to do much now, so I'll see what the weather is like tomorrow and maybe start digging a path. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/07/07 at 11:54:59 ;Dman you guys really like a challenge Greg you'll have to show how to do it pic'c please ( more for the album) ;D allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 12:55:11 hutch wrote:
You did bend the tab on the washer down, didn't you? (please tell me that's a stupid question) Lefty loosy too, right? Your bike is newer than mine too. Sompin' don't cypher here. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 13:03:37 allan wrote:
Ya suppose we aren't talking about the same nut? I do have a picture for the CD... I wonder if we're talking about the same bike....:P Here's my spouse's...I even reused the washer a couple times before.... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/FrontDrive_2340.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/07/07 at 14:59:51 Greg_650 wrote:
Stupid question on both counts. Same nut, same washer.. 2006 S-40.But I will bet that the last couple of threads sticking out of the nut on your bike, doesn't have lock-tite dripping off of it like mine does. I'll just have to heat it upand hope I don't fry the oil seal. If you heat it up and throw cold water on it, it usually "shocks" it and they will break loose. Works everytime for rusted nuts and bolt. I don't know how many times I have watched people try to heat a frozen nut and bolt cherry red and just twist it in two. You only have to heat it to hot(not red hot) and then throw cold water on it and presto, off comes the nut. Besides Greg, did you think I was kidding you about my luck. I will say that after 56 years of it, you tend not to let it get to you as bad. Tolerence build up I think they call it. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 20:44:05 hutch wrote:
Aw Man. I kinda figured that you checked all of it. Just sometimes, I know that someone can ask me something and then the light will "come on" so to speak. Like "damm, how'd I miss that?" I don't figure it's the fickle finger that much either. Sompin just ain't right. As for the torch...that'll loosen it but as you mentioned the oil seal, there's no need for a dumb question there. I would be worried about all the heat you'll have to put on that pulley and where it is gonna go. That pulley is gonna draw off a lot.. I'm thinking that I'd use the torch lightly on the nut but if that didn't work pretty quick that I'd then take a cutoff wheel to the nut. Got a Dremel or a good air grinder? Really baffling. When I first took mine off, I couldn't hold the bike and turn the nut, so I put a socket and bar on it, and because I didn't have an impactor, I smacked the bar with a mallet...broke loose... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion-step 1 Post by tbalam on 03/09/07 at 15:05:24 Step 1, Bolt on rear sprocket. check ;D http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C09%5Cbikepics-824534-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C09%5Cbikepics-824534-full.jpg) Still waiting on front sprocket, thanks hutch for the idea about using the small sprocket as a spacer. this was my 15 dollar score off ebay. I used JT sprockets website to cross reference different model bikes that use the same output shaft, and waited until one came up. a look down the rear sprocket to the pulley. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C09%5Cbikepics-824537-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C09%5Cbikepics-824537-full.jpg) waiting on cam chain and clutch parts then i will start putting it all back together and getting it cleaned up. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/09/07 at 17:19:09 Greg_650 wrote:
I think that before I take the torch to it I'll try one more thing. I'll go get my bike trailer from my son and load up the S-40, and take it to the local tire store. They told me they have 300 psi constantly. If that don't work it is torch time. Tbalam no problem on the spacer. I should have my 14 tooth and 13 tooth that I will use for spacer this coming week. Let us know if the sprocket/spacer needs any fine tuning to get the alignment correct. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/10/07 at 01:34:54 With KLX I have the choice of 13-15 front and 41-46 rear. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion-step 1 Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 07:17:02 tbalam wrote:
Great job. Really cool...especially after I had enough coffee to realize the photo was sideways ;D I've heard this conversion talked about for 6 years, and it is finally taking shape. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 07:18:27 hutch wrote:
I hope you have an impact socket that is up to that... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 07:19:06 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Choice is gonna be nice.... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/10/07 at 08:27:53 Greg_650 wrote:
Well greg since they are a tire place and I know they work on trucks, I'm hoping they have one ,if my snap-on 6 point breaks. BTW 32mm is the same as 1and1/4" |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/10/07 at 09:20:38 Tbalam smart job hurry up and do the rest we are all waiting to see who will be 1st with full results ;) allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 11:07:56 Yeah, 'cause I have enough pieces spread everywhere, and will prefer to just copy someone else :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/10/07 at 11:56:18 allan wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/10/07 at 14:04:46 Just one question. Is there any bolts on theSavage/S-40 that DOESN'T have loc-tite on it. Let me see, so far, all seat bolts, all exhaust bolts, handlebar switch screws, belt guard bolts, riser clamps, riser bolts, front footpeg bolts, sidecover screws, rear fender rail bolts, license plate bracket bolts, rectifier bolts, clutch and brake clamps at handlebar, chrome engine cover bolts, Definately the front belt pulley nut, and now I can't break the rear footpeg bolts loose. I will have to wait until the back tire is off and use a allen head socket on a BIG ratchet. Don't the Japs know what a lock washer or nyloc-nut is???I would love to take the guy who invented loc-tite and give him a big supository of it and then take him to Sluggos Table and get him a double order of Alices Killer Chili. Following into the can would be the best part. After listening to him straining for a while I would just say" Kind of a pain in the a$$ getting out, aint it??" |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by justin_o_guy on 03/10/07 at 18:48:04 Awwrite Hutch, I can tell by your post there is something you just simply aren't aware of. Here's the deal with design engineers. I have this on Good Authority so you simply must belive me. No engineeer is allowed to design ANYthing untill said engineer has had enough Psychology (brainwashing) to have zero regard for mechanics. If they want to go higher in their trade they simply take more Psychology untill they absolutely Hate mechanics. Now, doesn't that make it all just, Make sense? So, that's how it's gotta be.. right? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/10/07 at 19:42:42 justin_o_guy wrote:
Whoa dude!!! having been both a Suzuki mechanic and a degreed engineer I gotta think about that one! ;) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/11/07 at 06:22:46 smokin_blue wrote:
I don't think Justi_o_Guy meant all engineers or tradesmen, but there sure are a lot of them. Probably the ones that got points added to there scores for being a minority. Example While working for Buick the cars were only primared when the came down from cooling on the third floor. A "float" was set up so that when the line was shut off extra cars were there and other people could still work if one dept. was down. The float held 5 cars. There was an "eye" that picked up the movement of a car and told the computer to send another car into the float. Once in a while the car carrier would roll back and catch the feed line, and that would kick the carrier forward breaking the "eye" even though the car did not leave the station. The "eye "had just told the computer to send another car.6 cars in an area made for five.This was an elevated area and it would sandwich a car, pop it up over the rail and it would come crashing down in the corridoor. This went on for two shifts and 3 days. I told the General foreman how to fix it and put a mark in the dust where they needed to put a stop so the car couldn't roll back into the feed line and get kicked forward. I came into work the next day and here is the GF waiting for me. "It didn't work "he told me. First shift smashed 4 cars today.We went up and looked and the stop was there, 6 inches from my mark in the dust. I told the GF that may be they should get somebody with a brain to do it. Move it where the mark is. I didn't need a tape measure to know where to put it. They cut the stop off and moved it to my mark, no more problem. They smashed a total of 15 cars in three days at $6,000 a car. That is what they had into the car body at that point on the line. How many overpaid Pollocks does it take to put a stop in the right place NONE , just somebody with common sense to show them where it goes. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 08:22:03 hutch wrote:
Aw come on there big guy. It ain't that bad and there ain't locktite on all them bolts. Some of those bolts just got the old "steel bolt stuck in the aluminum thingie" torque quality... Try the old "shade tree" of a good smack on the head. Besides, you wouldn't want the old Harley trick of "steel bolt and aluminum thingie" fall off in the road, would you? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 08:31:27 justin_o_guy wrote:
There is a point there...but it doesn't apply to those rare hybrid engineering types in present company :P I have worked with some really brilliant engineers. They could imagine and design all kinds of devices, but when they picked up a wrench they were dumber than my toolbox. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/11/07 at 09:01:55 Greg_650 wrote:
It seems to me that I have never seen BLUE aluminum in steel bolt threads before. As far as the Harley remark, the only thing that ever fell off one of my harley's was the speedo that was next to the tank in the picture of the panhead I posted. The bracket broke. Pilots do a visual inspection of there planes before they take off. If you use star or lock washers, or nylock nuts, and check things once in a while instead of putting the key in it and taking off. NO PROBLEM!! I love seeing these people that run around for a week with tire half flat. Of course it is always on the passenger side, they never see that side of the car |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/13/07 at 13:59:56 One step closer on the chain drive. Mounted rear sprocket. Finally got the front sprocket nut off. 300psi and they asked me if it was left hand tread, no, try again, second try it came loose. Full of loc-tite. Slid front sprocket on and took a peak down both sprockets. Looks great, but lets see for sure. Did the string trick, looks good. Did the straight edge trick, looks good, Laser time for the top of the teeth, PERFECT. The spacer is needed on the OUTSIDE of the sprocket to take up the gap of the skinnier sprocket vs the pulley. Tab locking washer on out side, just barely reaches spline, so I took air sander to both sides, and now the washer fits great.I just polished the outside spacer, did not take any amount of metal off. That is all it took for locking washer to go on spline. Works perfect. Honda shop had no 530 chain, but will have tomorrow. I don't know how many links but it needs to be 69-70 inches long with wheel all the way forward. I will find out later if the same chain will work for both the 17 and the 14 tooth front sprocket. So far so good. The belt/chain guard doesn't look as bad as I thought. If I bob it shorter, I think it will look fine. Sorry no pictures, PARTS are more important than buying a camera. I f I ever get my son to bring his over I wil post some pics.The chain lenght I mentioned is for a 17/43 combo. Later Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/13/07 at 14:04:56 Awesome!!! I am glad that everything is working out. Did you grind down the sprocket to make the spacer or did you leave it alone? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/13/07 at 14:13:41 tbalam wrote:
With the 17 front the spacer MIGHT have worked with out grinding, would have been reel close. I knew it wouldn't ever work when I put the 14 on the front. What I did was set the toothed ouside lock washer on the sprocket, marked around it cause the washer is 40mm OD I took the spacer to the welding shop in town and they let me cut it down on their metal cutting jig saw. Brought it home and took the burs off, and polished both sides so the washer would catch the splines. PERPECT!! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/13/07 at 14:43:35 how much did the welding shop charge? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/13/07 at 15:32:43 tbalam wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 09:03:24 hutch wrote:
My BIL, whom has bunches of money, also has a 2 year old "Something Glide" (can't remember). He therefore has all his work done by the dealer and never touches a wrench. A couple months ago he was with his favorite Hog Group on a weekly "ride and pose" when he suddenly dropped from the radar while riding the tail position. When the group finally found him on the side of the road, it was discovered that all of his rear pulley bolts had come loose and a few had fallen out....Of course, having his resources a tow for the bike was no problem, but he did have to accept the disgrace of riding 2 up for the rest of the day. You might have preferred those bolts on your rear pulley. Right? Naw, things don't fall off Harleys... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 03/14/07 at 10:11:00 hutch wrote:
Hutch, it shouldn't be too difficult. Cruising at 5000rpm? Multiply x stock ratio, divide by new ratio. 5000 : 2.94 x 2.59 = 4400rpm ;) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/14/07 at 11:23:46 Greg_650 wrote:
That is the reason I do my own work. About two years ago I was unable to do some work on my bike and had the shop do it. They managed to NOT line up the rear axle. I took a trip up north,about 200 miles and when I stopped to fill the tank I had a rear belt that looked like an angora cat. How hard is it to line up a axle?Of course I changed it my self, Which meant tearing off 3" primary belt, clutch, inner primary, remove rear tire, unbolt shocks and tear off the softail rear section to change the back belt. One reason why I want a chain final drive, and I do my own work. Every 500 miles I go over every bolt , on every bike I have ever owned. Just a habit you get from owning all those Triumphs in earlier years. Now there is a vibrating bike. At least the old ones were. I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't check things out once in a while ON ANY BIKE you are looking for trouble. The old put the key in and go doesn't fly with me. After all we are flying low on two wheels, and pilots fly high on two wings, and they always do a pre-flight check. So do I. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/14/07 at 15:24:30 Hutch, so I guess the point you're making is: "chains are easier to swap than belts"? I'll agree with that for a one-time job, but over the life of a bike, are 6 chain swaps easier than 2 belt swaps? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Roadie on 03/14/07 at 18:35:34 Back to the original reason for Hutch's swap.. He wants to drop the RPMs are highway speed. Is this swap going to do that in the end? Just curious.. - Roadie |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/14/07 at 18:49:27 barry68v10 wrote:
For me yes, I would rather replace a chain ten times than spend 8hrs on one belt change on a softail frame bike. It's not that bad on a standard shock bike,but at least I can chew stuff up that gets in a chain, instead of the other way around. Someone just had a post about the tar and stone from a road repair getting in his belt. If you check your bike over once and a while, chains are fine. They worked for how many years???? Just cause it's new, doesn't mean it's improved. You don't see belts on dirt bikes. Let's face it, it's a dirty world out there. I can replace a chain and be on my way in30 minutes, no 8 hrs to it.AND I'M GETTING OLD AND SLOW. I wonder what the deal is with allen from England. Man he must have a weird bike or something. There is no way you can run the spacer on the inside of the sprocket like in his picture. Maybe he is using a different offset rear sprocket or something.All I know is it is pefectly aligned with GS550 (cast wheel) sprockets ,with the front sprocket against the factory spacer, and then the splined spacer on the outside next to the washer with the nut tightening everything down. Hope my chain gets here tomorrow. I can see now that the old bars are going to go back on for a test ride, if the weather man is wrong. Calling for rain/snow mix. Not over 40' for next 4-5 days. Sure was glad for the 72' Tuesday. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/14/07 at 18:55:21 Roadie wrote:
Yes it will, about 725 rpm's at 80mph. That is with the new 2.53 ratio using 17/43 sprockets.The stock belt ratio was2.96 |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 20:38:30 barry68v10 wrote:
You may have asked the eternal question here. Got to wonder why Harley introduced them on their Softtail back in the '80s, but the whole world didn't change right along behind them... Of course, has a belt ever knocked a hole in a tranny case when it broke? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Mr 650 on 03/14/07 at 21:30:41 How often does a chain run dry? Or the last time a belt slung that combination oil/metal/dirt black goo on you or your bike & how often do you have clean the goo off ? :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Roadie on 03/15/07 at 03:21:25 Mr 650 wrote:
Its really not that bad. My friends 1200 Bandit has a huge chain on it and he lubes it on a regular basis. I don't see him cleaning his bike any more than I do. (Who doesn't own a clean bike anyways?)... I would *think* dirt bikes use chains because well their a bit narrower and "holoer" (not a word I know and probably spelled wrong to boot!..) than a belt. I.E. common sense tells me that chains are good a slinging goo off than belts. And to me, for dirt application thats a good thing. I like the simplicity of the belt, the smoothness in power transitions of the belt, etc. I think this discussion comes down to what you are comfortable with honestly. I don't see any major problems with either method of cycle locomotion. I am enjoying seeing this mod coming along. Who knows maybe I might do it some day. (Well the wife is resisting any change on *her* bike..) Its *her* bike when she gets permitted... *Grumble* - Roadie ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/15/07 at 05:34:19 Yeah, but if I remember back to page 1, this topic is concerned with changing final drive ratios...not whether belts are cleaner or chains are narrower. We probably wouldn't have this discussion at all if there were optional pulley and belt sizes....me thinks. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 08:35:47 Greg_650 wrote:
You are right there Greg, if they made different size pulleys, I know a lot of you would be playing with ratios. I think that it might be an engineering challenge for the belt pulleys, when you think about it. If you look at the size of the STOCK pulleys, they are huge compared to the chain sprockets OD's, even for the same ratio. I'm not sure how much smaller you could go with the front pulley without throwing a belt, and you sure can't go bigger because of lack of room. It looks like you would only be able to play with the back pulley to change ratios. I don't know what the price of the back pulley is, but I know the back sprocket is a lot more than the front, and the front is a lot simpiler to change once you get the nut off the first time. I just looked up the price for a Harley back pulley, OEM is $230. As I said before, I have had nothing but bad luck with belts, and years of no trouble with chains. The new chain lubes are awesome, no mess, and I just like being able to fix things quickly. The playing with ratios is a VERY big plus. As long as the chain is checked frequently and adjusted, along with the other spot checks, like oil and bolt tightness, there is no problem. If You just want to start and go,and never check anything, then all I can say is GOOD LUCK with anything you own. Everyone has there preference, mine happens to be chain. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 11:52:40 Got my chain today. I lined up the hash marks on both sides of the swing arm so axle is straight, put the chain on top of back sprocket and front sprocket, put trans in gear, rotated back tire to tighten chain on top, and took a looksy down chain for alignment. PERFECT, with stockspacer on the inside, then sprocket, then NEW spacer,toothed locking washer and nut. There might be an issue with the top belt/chain cover mounting bracket. the center one with the bolt, that sits on the top of swingarm. Won't know until road tested. Two reasons no road test today. First,it's only 25' with a 20mph wind, and I aint as hadcore as I used to be. Second, Greg 650 needs to keep the fickle finger of fate at his house. After making sure everything was kosher with alignment I went to put the chain together, TO SHORT, WHAT??? I ordered a 530/ 110 chain so I knew it would be long enough and I could always shorten it. For some reason it SHRUNK to a 530/100 link in the mail. Now I might get the correct one tomorrow, or MONDAY. Figures.Just kidding Greg, I wouldn't wish my luck on anyone. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/15/07 at 12:01:59 Wait until the temp gets into the 40s. The chain might be long enough then :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 12:15:53 Greg_650 wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/15/07 at 14:03:56 hutch wrote:
Hutch, I think i have made a big bobo with the spacer, I think you are right about its position, when we took the bikes out for a warm up on sunday, the 400 made a lot of noise from the front sprocket (clicking) when we got into it Tuesday night we found the chain trying to climb off the side, (puzzled) now the only major change has been the swingarm (corrosion) so I dragged off the swingarm and laid it next to the old one, the old one is bent, closer inspection shows the stiffner support to be severly coroded underneath,why i didnt see this before bothers me, any way going back to the plot, swapped the spacer round like you have done and every thing now ok, all I can say is please except my apologies for the mis direction to you and others on this thread, allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Roadie on 03/15/07 at 14:16:29 Once Hutch pulls this mod off. (No doubts now!) I think a interesting post would be all the possible ratios and sprockets and parts that could fit as post in the tech section. *Just a thought* - Roadie |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 14:19:32 allan wrote:
No problem mate. Just read the signature at the bottom of my posts. I definately know I will be visiting BooBoo land in my life time AGAIN, probably more than once, I am quite sure. Thank You for the help anyway!!!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 15:01:12 hutch wrote:
One more thank you ALLAN, for proving a point about the strenght of a chain. I am quite sure a belt would have been HISTORY running 10mm out of alignment. RIDE SAFE!!! Hutch. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/15/07 at 15:40:26 glad things are workin for you hutch, I am hoping mine will be done by sat. evening so if you dont get to ride I'll let you know how the acceleration is. I bought a 116 link because I found a site that said the s400 used 110 links and we are going to be geared differently so I wanted more links to cya. My bike has been apart for about 3 weeks and not ridin is killin me so I cant wait Happy ridin' |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 16:41:03 tbalam wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 16:51:13 Greg_650 wrote:
Guess what Greg? The 1981 Harley Sturgis was the first belt drive bike I ever owned. The primary belt was enclosed just like a chain,BAD IDEA, the heat from the motor and lack of air shredded it in 3000miles. I replaced it, did some performance mods to the motor, but fell on hard times(lay off) and sold it to my then brother-in-law. He shredded another primary belt and when going down a long country driveway to a party, broke the belt on the final drive. Seems a small twig the size of a pencil flipped up into the back pulley and popped the belt off, this caused the belt to jump off the front trans pulley and almost cut it in half. Now you know why nobody else jumped on the belt band wagon in the 80's. This happened a lot and Harley went back to chains for their primary drive. Is that upper AND lower belt cover on the Savage there for your safety or the belts???? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 19:39:31 tbalam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what sprockets did you go with? Ones for top end and fewer rpm's, or lower top end and neck snapping take off. I know I think you mentioned new cam chain and better clutch, so I am curios. Don't forget that your speedo will be of no matter which way you go. That is why I liked front wheel driven speedos, but they are a thing of the past. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/15/07 at 19:49:01 I am going to start off with a 17/43 and see how that works, then if need be change to somewhere in the 2.75 ratio range if I don't like the acceleration. I am more worried about rpm's and I am doing the clutch to help it grip with the added strain that the taller gears will put on the system. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/15/07 at 20:02:30 tbalam wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/15/07 at 20:13:39 I got a cheapo oring off ebay for $60, it might be worth checkin it out. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by justin_o_guy on 03/16/07 at 11:23:51 hutch wrote:
Just let me know before you head off that way & I will send you my copy of the map. I have all the rest stops marked & a few of the worst places to eat highlighted. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/16/07 at 13:43:31 justin_o_guy wrote:
LMAO. I thought there was some thing familiar about some of the people I met there. Next time I'm there say hi.WELL THE CHAIN CONVERSION IS DONE. Had to take a couple of links out of the 110 chain, of course my son didn't bring back my chain breaker he borrowed last year so out came the grinder, punch and hammer. Looks good!! Time to get the bike off the motorcycle air lift. Guess what? GREG could you please keep the FICKLE FINGER OF FATE on a shorter leash. He still can reach my garage. I had raised the bike up high enough so my knees could fit under when setting in my office swivel chair, to work on it. You have to raise it about an inch to unhook the safety stop. Hit the air pedal and all I heard was a pop and a lot of air. Hoist didn't move. Now I got a bike on a lift 2 foot off the ground and no way to get it down. NICE!!.I couldn't raise it with my floor jack, it just lifted the whole hoist, not just the platform.REAL NICE!! Good thing my garage is 60' long. I rolled my bike trailer up to the hoist, about 6" lower than hoist. I can deal with that. After running the 5 other bikes that were in the way outside, I see--sawed my truck back and forth till I could hook it to the trailer.Rolled the bike off the hoist on to the trailer backwards. Pulled the truck up to the opposite wall, as far as I could go.Put the ramp on the trailer and down the ramp I go. Now remember that I don't have the clutch or FRONT BRAKE hooked up(new bars)Using the back brake I slid to a stop about 4" from running into my broken hoist. The bike is back in the living room, the hoist was locked in the garage after being called some choice names. TEST RIDE not yet. I could have changed bars back, but with all the good luck I figured it was safer to stay home. Besides It's 28' with wind gusts to 25mph. Tbalam should be done with his Saturday, and I we will find out if it works out, or not. Just might have to swap sprockets around to find that sweet spot. Once again THANK YOU to everyone who helped to bring this to reality. When it gets warm I will test ride, and I will get the info together and post some pics, if my son lets me borrow his camera. I think I will get the camera back to him NEXT year. PAY BACKS. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/16/07 at 22:23:22 well hutch, I think the fickle finger took a detour to Az. One of the parts I am waiting on was mis shipped, so it'll b monday. I have it mostly together though and I see what you mean by the upper chain guard bracket. I think i am going to grind it down a bit. I don't use the chain guard anyway, so if i have to i will just cut it off. I am trying to make everything reversible so when i sell her the new owner can do whatever he/she wants. Wont be anytime soon though this is just to much fun. All of this tells me I need to hurry up and graduate, so I can get a bigger/better shop. ;D Can't wait to see how she does. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/17/07 at 06:44:53 hutch wrote:
Quick, look up! Is there a dark cloud over your head? :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/17/07 at 19:55:31 Well the conversion is done, And as hutch said the upper bracket is in the way... barely. It just hits the rivets on the chain. As for the sprockets and chain, with only the stock spacer on the inside and an extra sprocket width on the outside my chain runs right down the middle. the sprocket teeth are also smack dab in the middle of the chain. As soon as my parts get here she will be out for a test run. Assuming no oil leaks or other problems. BIG IF. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C17%5Cbikepics-832589-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C17%5Cbikepics-832589-full.jpg) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by justin_o_guy on 03/17/07 at 20:23:01 Hmmmm, that looks pretty danged nice.. I wonder how many miles I will get outta this belt? I wonder how I can justify that mod? Hmmmm,,, Where's the emoticon for head scratchin & chin strokin? I really like the low end grunt, but it sure would be nice to be able to run 80 without wringing its poor little guts out. I'll see what the cam does to it. Maybe one day I will follow suit with the chain mod. Congratulations to you guys & thanks for wading off into this. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/18/07 at 03:12:18 Hey tbalam Congratulations on the chain drive conversion, plenty of choice of gearing now. Go well Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by PerrydaSavage on 03/18/07 at 03:31:35 ;D I'm really liking the look of that chain drive on the Savage ... Good job! 8) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/07 at 06:18:37 tbalam wrote:
That looks mighty fine... I've spent the last 7 years, thinking that there were some really creative folks in Europe that that must have fabricated some special parts to make this same conversion...and here you guys did it in a couple weeks with parts off the shelf. Damm good job. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/07 at 07:17:11 Okay. I just found an online source for the JT Sprockets. Much cheaper than the Dealer listing I was looking at...it is the same dealer source too. Here it is: http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/partsByBrand.aspx?manufacturer=318&DID=759&BID=30&BTD=1 Now, one thing I'm slightly confused about is which model that you guys selected. It's a GS550? They list a 550, a 550E, a 550ES, a 550L, and a 550M. Anyone wanna explain? There is even a listing for a GR650 Tempter. Anyone seen that one? BTW - when this is done, you guys really deserve to go into Hall of Fame and to put this in the tech section. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by clueless on 03/18/07 at 07:32:41 I agree with Greg. Looks FANTASTIC! This is one mod I will definitely do. :D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 07:51:30 Greg_650 wrote:
This will probably confuse even more. The JT site lists as 1980 GS550ET, LT. When I went to the Honda shop to order mine the book just listed it as "spoke" or "cast" wheel. As long as you order for the CAST wheel, you will have the correct ones. The rear can be had in 38-52 tooth, and the front in 13-18 tooth. The 18 tooth would not work because of clearance. Any of the back will work.I ran with the 17/43 for 14.5% change for a 725RPM savings at 80MPH, and have a 14 tooth extra front to make it accelerate faster than stock if I want. It will only take a few minutes to swap out front sprocket to change the bike completely. I f you want a good compromise and not change the sprockets all the time, the 16/43 would probably be the best with a 9-10% change and save you 450-500 RPM at 80mph. The possibilities are endless with all the gear ratios you can come up with. Take it from MILD to WILD, it's your choice. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/07 at 07:58:41 hutch wrote:
I know...but the difference is that all dealers are different in how they list stuff, and I don't particularly like my local Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki dealership. This supplier lists them by model number directly from JT, and the price is a few dollars less for both sprockets. This site also lists some variations for each bike too...14. 15. 16 etc. I'd really rather order from this site (I have before) than to travel to Michigan and order at your Honda dealership :P I'll do a little more surfing then....:) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 08:03:48 Greg_650 wrote:
Greg the front sprocket is no problem, they are the same on all 1980 GS 550 models, The rear has to be off the CAST wheel and I would go with the GS550 E, or L model. As long as it has the 100mm bolt pattern, you will be alright. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by azjay on 03/18/07 at 08:10:22 congrats on the on the conversion guys! i just finished reading all 11 pages(at this time) , a great effort by by the group of you, which is what makes site/group the greatest on the 'net! please allow me to add another belt negative, two weeks ago, debby's roadking got a small rock/ piece of gravel between the belt and rear pulley, the rock pushed through the belt, creating a hole in the middle, a quick twist of the throttle, 60hp and 700lbs later, the belt is broke laying on the side of the road. $330 for belt and seals (gotta pull the primary case, no point in putting used seals back on) plus a min 4hrs which translates into a couple weeks, based on my available wrench time. shes been riding this bike for 5mos, we live on a dirt road, with a county maintained lose blacktop road coming in from the highway. if this happens again, she'll be gettin' a chain drive! harley's motivation towards the belt drive (i think) has more to do with reduced maintenance for the RUBs, than any real practicality. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/07 at 08:11:04 hutch wrote:
Okay. I'm just trying to nail this down so that it is "etched in stone". Then future Savages can just look at the numbers and order it without having to send you a private message...see where I'm going now? Front = 1980 GS 550...good Just check this site. There were GS 550s from 1977 to 1986. Looks like the 550M was a Katana model, too. If you'll notice, there were a lot of years with cast wheels. http://www.suzukicycles.org/GS-series/GS550E.shtml |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/07 at 08:16:13 Here's a 1978 GS550E with cast wheels and rear disk too ;D http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/GS/GS550E/1978_GS550E_black_600.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 08:24:39 Greg_650 wrote:
Just order BOTH sprockets for the 1980GS 550 with CAST wheel and your GOOD TO GO. The chain length will depend on the sprockets you choose, but the sprockets are made for a 530 chain. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 08:29:37 azjay wrote:
Don't forget the money they make from owners that aren't mechanicly inclined. The labor charge is what kills you. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/18/07 at 10:53:45 Hey guys, These sprockets fit a number of models and years. Most of the sprockets for the GS, GSXR, GSX's work. Hear is the model numbers: JTsprockets Front: jtf513.? Rear jtr816.? The .? is for whatever tooth number you want. If you go here: http://www.jtsprockets.com/61.0.html?&L=0&sel_artnr=JTF513,13 And here: http://www.jtsprockets.com/61.0.html?&L=0&sel_artnr=JTR816,39 You can see at the links above all the models that share these sprocket designs and then buy a sprocket for anyone of these models, from whatever sprocket manufacturer you want. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 10:54:13 I have now listed the chain conversion in the TECH section. I will be posting pics( if my son gets here before the sun goes down) and gear ratio charts with rpm changes. as soon as possible. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN for all the help and encouragement. Even the discouraging remarks-------MADE ME THAT MORE DETERMINED.!!!! RIDE SAFE, HAVE FUN AND THANK YOU EVERYONE Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by PerrydaSavage on 03/18/07 at 13:43:46 While I have no plans (yet) to convert my Savage to chain drive, ever since I leaned of the LS400 I've been curious ... and have read all here at suzukisavage.com on the subject ... and am AMAZED with the work and engineering know-how of Hutch and others who have decided to follow this thru ... CONGRATULATIONS EVERYONE!!!!!! This Website is the BEST!!!! A business op for one of you techs might be to offer "Chain Drive Conversion Kits" c/w chain, spockets and spacers ... just a thought ... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 13:50:16 CHAIN CONVERSION ROAD TEST. I got tired of waiting for my son and his camera and put old bars back on. If I miss a letter don't mind me it is 30' witha wind I'M FROZE. Put 30 miles on it with the 17/43 sprockets. Tried all types of roads. It still has good acceleration(less than stock). By the calculations I made before leaving the speedo is reading 5-7mph slow up to 50mph and 10-15mph slow at above that. If that is the case that means I was doing 95mph on the expressway. Passing cars is a down shift on the e-way. Drove into Frankenmuth to try the hills in town at 25mph, had to run in 3rd up hill so as not to "chug" the motor, level ground through town 4th.Chain does not hit belt cover bracket like I thought. It might if chain becomes loose, and probably will with the shorter 14 tooth sprocket. Cruising at about what used to be my 55mph feel(reads47) is just a nice easy lope on the engine. At 75-80(reads 65-70) the motor runs at a nice steady droan with out all those RPM's like before. I know I was going with the flow of traffic on the e-way and I said before that is 80mph in the center lane. At about 70-75mph in the slow lane it just purrs down the road. All in all I LIKE IT. It reminds me more of the gearing of the harleys I used to ride, with only a down shift to pass. A lot less rpm's on the interstate and still good power at slower speeds. At 55 on the back roads, it sounds like it is just over a high idle. In the tight twisties around the Flint River I found that 4th gear gave me the same acceleration through the curves as 5th used to, still fun as all get out. Should extend motor life, and increase mpg. I didn't try any hole shots(not why I did this) but I didn't feel any clutch slip and it is far from being a dog off the line when taking off. No need to slip clutch to take off, just drive as usual. I can't wait for warm weather to run it longer but I can see a warm shower coming right now. Blood thinners suck in the winter. I can't wait to try the 14 tooth front sprocket out(3.07 ratio), it should take off a little faster than stock, for having stop light to stop light fun.Like I said I LIKE IT so far, but more riding will tell the WHOLE story. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 16:25:36 I have posted pictures of the chain conversion in tech/document section, will add ratio charts later. If anyone notices the grease on the chain, that is because when my son finally brought his camera over he neglected to bring the only can of PJ1 no mess chain lube back that he BORROWED last year. I didn't want to run the chain dry, so I left the packing grease on it for my test run.Later Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/18/07 at 20:37:35 Hey hutch, Great job! I am really glad it works well. I can't wait to get mine going and see what it'll do. It was 103 yesterday and 95+ today so a ride right now would be great. I'll try to send some of our weather your way, 103 a week before spring is a bit much. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/18/07 at 21:24:29 tbalam wrote:
I didn't get to really put that many miles on cause I was beginning to feel like a popsicle, but seems to be just what I was looking for. The lower RPM's at 80mph was nice. First time I saw the 3rd lane on the e-way with the S40. People thought I was nuts I think, just buzzed on by them. I can't wait to try the 3.07 ratio with the 14 tooth on the front, should be fun. You know the fair weather sent my way would be nice. The weatherman just said snow tomorrow. Isn't going to be nice until next weekend, maybe 50+ with no rain. I think I will leave my old bars on for now and get my" Savagealope" bars powdercoated black. Will order cables from LANCER next week and maybe everything will be here at the same time(wishful thinking). I think you will like the change. I still might play with a few different sprockets just for the heck of it, but not till it gets warmer than this weather we have in Michigan now. Later Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/19/07 at 03:34:22 hutch wrote:
Hey Hutch, One thing I would really suggest if you went with an O-ring chain....and you want to keep a clean chain and bike then clean up the grease/PJ1 with some kerosene and put on some chain wax. I have a gold chain on my streetfighter and use that and I love it after years of PJ1 goo. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Mr 650 on 03/19/07 at 05:04:17 I forgot the Tempter, I guess it didn't see much sales??? Here's a Canadian photo: http://z.about.com/d/motorcycles/1/0/6/W/f0405.jpg I understand it was a good bike. http://www.davidreiss.com/tempter.html Greg_650 wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/19/07 at 05:44:17 In red too... http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/GR-series/GR650/1983_GR650XD_US_833.jpg |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Rockin_John on 03/19/07 at 06:56:14 Greg_650 wrote:
I sure miss regular motorcycles. This whole era of a gap between crusiers and crotch rockets is shame. We could be having some fine "universal" motorcycles... Instead, they've tried to fill the gap with over-sized and priced scooters! Though I have to admit some of those scooters are cool in their own right, I could never consider riding anything with wheels smaller than 15" on out pot-hole filled roads down here. Congrats and thanks to the guys on the hunt for the easy chain drive conversion. I'm another one that will be taking it under consideration. Especially if my plans to buy a second Savage this week come through! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/19/07 at 08:12:12 smokin_blue wrote:
You know I have been to 2 different bike shops I don't know how many times in the last couple of months, and I keep forgetting to look for the chain wax. Guess I was just focused on the sprocket thing to much. Now that ELVIRA is sporting a chain I will have to check for it. Thanks for reminding me,and for all the help during this project. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/19/07 at 08:39:05 hutch wrote:
Any plans for some method for correcting the speedo? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/19/07 at 09:11:58 Greg_650 wrote:
There is a place in Flint, Michigan(about28 miles) called SPEC-MO that recalibrates auto and truck speedos, but I don't know about bikes. If I can't figure out how to I will just do the math, or do like I have done with all the choppers and bobbers I have built with NO speedo. GO WITH THE FLOW of traffic. As long as you don't stick out of the crowd as far as speed goes, the 5-0 tend to leave you alone. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/19/07 at 09:53:30 hutch wrote:
I just set up my shopping cart at the Motorcycle Superstore with the 45/17 (2.65 ratio) and 120 link chain...I also added to you and tbalam in the Tech section with other options. Good to go on this one...and Thanks alot to both of you, I might add... How about another challenge? Do you suppose that anything else is useful on the GS 550...like maybe the speedo drive on the countershaft or maybe the rear wheel size or maybe even the speedo too? Might be able to upgrade this all the way. Might help Kropatchek with his new tank too :P Anyway |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Dynobob on 03/19/07 at 12:02:03 hutch wrote:
You might try Belray Super Clean. It's a better lube in my opinion and it will not fling. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/19/07 at 12:29:05 Dynobob wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/19/07 at 14:02:48 Greg_650 wrote:
what about looking at changing front wheel with speedo drive, gs 250 gt250 from the early 80's or maybe virago 250/535, I'm only offering thoughts here, not something I've looked at yet, I'm sure there is something out there. well done Hutch looks good to me, will now give it a go on the 400 to see if I can get it up there with the 650, allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/19/07 at 14:21:17 allan wrote:
Quite true...I guess there's a couple ways to do it. I wonder how the speedo was driven on the GS550...since they had optional sprockets it might have been a front wheel drive speedo too. But then you have to do something with the stock speedo since the cable might not connect easily. Are speedos and cables and drives standardized? I never really thought about it. Either that, or I'm gonna have to get used to making mental corrections with the stock one... |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/19/07 at 14:26:53 In this case you could likely buy a speedo drive for a harley , :o yep i said it, and a speedo to match. JPcycles 2007 catolog pages 418 ish. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/19/07 at 14:36:44 tbalam wrote:
Oh no. I'm not buying something that's likely to vibrate and fall off :P |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by allan on 03/19/07 at 14:53:35 the wheel driven varities I've come across are all square ended cables, as is the savage speedo head so you just need a longer cable,I would think any Honda above 250 will do as they are mostly wheel driven possibly a magna or shadow ? allan. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/19/07 at 15:54:22 I used to use my tach in the old hot rod days when the race rearend in my car thru the speedo off. I know that most everyone wants the correct speedo reading for mileage reasons, like oil change, when to fill up and the dreaded 5-0. I never could figure out why they did away with the front wheel speedo on most bikes. Unless you went to a different tire on the front, you could always know what your speed was. Sooner or later I plan to put a nice Barons chrome tach on ,but it would be nice to have a correct speedo. I'll let someone else figure this out. Spec-mo was a NO GO. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/19/07 at 22:16:59 allan wrote:
The cable might be the same, but it's the ratio of the gears driving the cable that I wonder about...on ours it comes straight off the drive shaft. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Mr 650 on 03/19/07 at 22:42:43 Greg, I remember crossing parts to my 1983-4 Gs750. If memory serves, the clutch plates, discs and springs swap. Greg_650 wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/20/07 at 03:37:39 Greg_650 wrote:
The GS550 (like all old GS's) were driven off the front wheel. The GS spoke wheels were 19" fronts so they would cross right over other than the disc may take some work to bolt up. but hey why not change that out and bold up a 4 pot at that point! anyway the GS's ran 19" front spoked and 18" rear , the mag style had 18" mags front and 17" generally in the rear. The smaller GT's such as the 250 ran 18" spoked front and back. Not sure on the GT550 and larger I think those might have been 19" fronts. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/20/07 at 04:18:33 A few details I almost forgot. The axle size is the same on all of them! They went to a larger axle when they went to the 3 spoke hollow cast mags in about '88. The drive runs off a 90 deg drive that engages with wheel with either 2 or 4 tabs. I just checked and the savage rim does not have the ability to drop those in. That said I glanced over at my GS550 and the front brake is on the left side like the savage and although it is a dished disc rather than flat the spacing looks roughly the same. It may just slot in. If anyone gets real serious about this I could try slipping my gs550 rim into my savage and let you know. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/20/07 at 08:57:30 smokin_blue wrote:
Well, since the rear pulley/sprocket change worked out so nicely, what's the chance that the disc brakes would match? My info shows the 1978 550 had spokes and dual front disks. Reckon that the Savage master cylinder would operate those brakes? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 03/20/07 at 09:02:14 smokin_blue wrote:
The axle size through the bearings? Or through the fork tube also? I imagine that you might need the entire front end, if it fit in the steering head. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/20/07 at 09:59:44 All the early GS550's were single disc. You didn't encounter the duals until the GS750 model and larger and then only on the E an possibly the L models but not on the spoked rims. The bearings are the same. I would look at putting the GS550 wheel in place of the stock savage with the savage axle. The disc is dished versus flat but it might be in the same location vs centerline from eyeballing it. The hub definately looks different. The GS is the old mid size hub look and the savage has the spindle look of most crusiers. I wouldn't suggest putting GS forks on them because I think they will be too short and they are much smaller in diameter. Hard call on the axles unless I pulled both and laid them side by side. My thought is the most it might be would be a couple of spacer mods. But hey...I like spacers! ;D With all the electronic spedo's these days I would be temped to keep it clean and go that route. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by PerrydaSavage on 03/20/07 at 13:31:18 I've seen pics somewhere of a VZ800 Marauder front-end on a Savage ... and the 'Rauder has a bar-mtd. speedo ... is it run off of the front wheel? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by smokin_blue on 03/20/07 at 16:17:34 I did some looking on the intruders and muraders and there is a reall mix. All of them appear to run a front wheel drive speedo but the murader with it's hollow cast wheel has the larger axle size. The older 750 and 800 spoked intruders have the smaller 15mm axle with the front wheel speedo drive so that would probably work better. However, now you are into a 21" wheel so that is problematic again! :-/ It's never easy...you just have to find the right nugget. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/22/07 at 14:56:13 I don't want to interrupt the speedo posts, but I thought I would give you an update on the chain conversion . It finaly quit raining this morning,sun came out 50'. Test ride. I put over 100 miles on the 17/43 conversion and really got the feel today. In town it is a 3rd gear no chug at 25mph. 4th gear for towns with 35-40 speed limits. Back roads are an easy smooth rpm at 55-60(speedo reads 48-51) going with the traffic. On the interstate at 70-75 (speedo reads 60-65) it is a joy now. It falls into a super smooth rpm where the exhaust note gets hard to hear without leaning that way to hear it., and I have the loud Jardine muffler. SMOOOTH. Passing a semi is no problem, even in the wash at the cab door of the truck. Down shift only needed if a heavy head wind. The best way I can describe the all around performance of the bike with this ratio is to compare it to another bike. This will not help the younger people on this site, but I know I am not the only middle aged person here. Aceleration is a STEADY, STRONG pull in all gears. with 5th as an overdrive. It feels just like a Triumph 750 twin of the 70's. Only a LOT less vibration. It is perfect. I thought I would be spending most of my time with the 14/43 combo on it for everyday driving, and going to the 17 on the front for when I wanted to hit the e-way for long trips. I believe it is going to be 17/43 most of the time now, and only switched to the 14/43 when I just want to smoke most everything else from 0-60. I can't believe how much nicer a bike it has become. I did get a chance to find out how far my speedo is off. I can't belive I did this, but I saw a State Police Officer at the ramp when I got to the e-way. I told him the story of the conversion and that my speedo was off. He agreed to follow me on to the e-way and let me know when I hit 70mph. The speedo is off by 10mph. When it said 60 mph it was 70.Below 55 it is off by about five mph. I did have it up to a speedo reading of a little over 80mph(95 actual, not with the cop around) and I was in the 3rd lane passing everybody. I came home and figured everything out, and either my speedo has been reading slow to begin with or something. The gear change is a 14.5% change, but the real speed compared to the speedo reading works out to a 17% change to be correct. Oh well, all I know is I LIKE IT. It is a much more VERSATILE bike, but that is my oppinion, as much as that is worth. RIDE SAFE Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by verslagen1 on 03/22/07 at 16:57:13 Hey, Hutch I'm real happy for you! ;D You ought to post this in the tech section with all the particulars. Major Grats! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/22/07 at 17:10:34 verslagen1 wrote:
Thanks a lot. I would post it, but the only way I know how to is type it all over. Is there a way to move a copy to the tech section? I don't know how. Any help would be appreciated. Maybe one of the moderators could move it for me if nothing else. Thanks!! Hutch UPDATE---- I engaged my brain and remembered how to CUT and PASTE. It is now in the tech document section. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/22/07 at 18:42:53 I am so jealous hutch. That part that should have been here mon. apparently got lost. Still not here ::) ::) ::) OH well! |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/22/07 at 19:28:20 tbalam wrote:
It will be worth the wait. Can't wait to see if you feel the way I do about the conversion and have the same performance. The 17/43 is great for a medium weight rider(below200LB), the 16/43 perfect for a heavier rider and hills, and the 14/43 is gonna be great for embarasing other bike riders from 0-60mph. I will try to keep the Fickle finger of fate on a shorter leash. It must be doing double duty this week. I made my Visa payment a week ago and it still hasn't posted to my account. Looks like I wait another week to order my cables from LANCER for my Savagalope bars. Always something. Hang in there!!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Kropatchek on 03/23/07 at 03:39:26 For the excact speed indication you could consider the installation of a bicycle computer. Install the sender on the brake caliper and the magnet on the brakedisk. Stay away from the wireless units, they don't work. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/23/07 at 15:20:06 Hutch, congrats! I'm glad you're happy with it, and may not be too far behind you on this one! ;D I always knew taller gearing would really benefit this bike! Thanks for confirming what I suspected all along ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/24/07 at 14:50:02 Just took her for a spin..... WEEEEEEEEE!!!!! It puts the engine under a little more load, which makes it sound cool, and to be honest there isn't a huge difference in accel under WOT. I gave it a couple of good twists and she accels good, not head snappin, but still really well. You have to get used to the new sounds of the chain i noticed. I shimmed the clutch springs to help the extra stress placed on the clutch and I shimmed it a bit to much. Now it wont release the clutch enough at stop lights and signs. I am gonna take out the shims, in a while. I did some other modas and went up a jet size with my K&N so all of this is a little skewed by that, But for the money this chain conversion is totally worth it. Hutch 2 in the country with a chain.... soon to be more I think. Oh and i have a fat 230 pound as at 6'2" and I still think it rides great with the 17/43. I am thinkn though of getting maybe a 15, so as to have some fun on occasion.... ah the joys of a chain. Thanks everyone. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/24/07 at 16:33:04 tbalam wrote:
Glad it works for you also. Because I am 5'10" and only weigh 150, I was thinking with anyone over 200lbs it might be to big a change, glad that is not so. The 15 tooth (2.86)would bring you back to pretty close to stock(2.96) The 14 tooth(3.07) will make it be even QUICKER off the line than stock. REAL FUN for racing 0-60, Because it only takes a few minutes to change that would be fun for city stop light to stop light.That will be my next test ride, with the 14. I have been enjoying the 17 so much that the 14 has just been setting on my stereo. I am hoping that I will be able to use the same chain for both. I am all the way to the front of adjustment with the 17, and hope the 14 will bring me to the back with no need for a second chain. Even if I do have to run a second chain for the 14, it is still worth it. I like the way you stay in each gear longer with the 17, and the next thing you know it's setting on 60(70actual) and you got another gear to go.OVERDRIVE. Now when you are out on nice two lane blacktop it feels much more like a BIGGER CRUISER. I think you might be right about others going to chain, I know of two possibles already. HAVE FUN Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/24/07 at 19:06:05 Quote:
How much did you shim them? I'm thinking about shimming mine... In theory, as the steel deflects, it's tensile strength increases. So, a shimmed stock spring should last longer than a new aftermarket spring. But...of course you have to allow the clutch to disengage ::) I guess the question I'm asking is: How much is too much? :-/ |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/24/07 at 19:50:45 I shimmed probably about 1/8"-3/16", though I didn't measure, it was 2 steel washers from lowes. That was to much. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/24/07 at 19:59:26 OK. One steel washer from Lowes it is! ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by verslagen1 on 03/24/07 at 20:51:55 Barry, huh!?!?!?!?!?!? "as the steel deflects, it's tensile strength increases" Not correct, as steel deflects the tensile stress increases. Once it reaches its limit, it bends. And if bent more, it snaps. In fatigue, steel will reach its limit at about half its yields stress, the point at which it will bend. "shimmed stock spring should last longer than a new aftermarket spring" Possibly not true, either can last forever or a week. Depends on the design and how it's made. Shimming a spring increases the stress. If there is enough margin in the design, no problem. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/25/07 at 07:12:46 verslagen1 wrote:
This is the reason that I planned on buying new "heavier" springs if a problem arises from the conversion. In all my years of working on cars, bikes and guns I have done my fair share of "jury" rigging. In the long run I have found that it is good for a SHORT term fix, but the improved part is the best. I believe LANCER can get, or knows where to get the heavier springs. I don't imagine they are that expensive compared to a ruined clutch basket. I am a firm believer in doing things right or not at all. Mostly from trying to get away with quick fixes when I was younger, and learning the hard way. So far I have had no problem with clutch slip, but it still isn't 80-90 degrees yet, I only have about 300 miles on the conversion, and my butt only weighs 150, so time will tell. I just did a search for heavier springs in the posts, and Reelthing had heavier springs and a high friction clutch setting on a shelf. He would also be able to help you with locating the springs, or clutch. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/25/07 at 09:16:33 I bought the heaveir springs CSK24 I think from ronayers. THey were way smaller than the one I currently have. I thin kthat the po may have rigged some very stiff springs from some other source. I certainly will be taking the shims out, this week some time. I just noticed doing a search that I think the po put the vesrah springs on mine. They are probably 50% stiffer than stock. That's likely why I have never had clutch slip problems. Bike bandit sells the vesrah plates and springs for the savage. VC330- Plates - 79.95 SK330- springs - 10.95 |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/25/07 at 09:39:20 Quote:
Under stress, steel will typically harden until failure. This is called the "strain hardening region". After it reaches its ultimate strength, steel will quickly weaken until ultimate failure. More brittile materials will snap prior to hardening. In steel, this usually only applies to high carbon content steel. Spring steel is typically more ductile and should harden under stress. Although, I've never tested the stock springs used on a Savage. Widipedia has a decent picture explaining this principle here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Stress_v_strain_A36_2.png#file |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by verslagen1 on 03/25/07 at 11:06:27 Your second answer is better than the first. But I hope my springs are made of this stuff. I'm more worried about fatigue stress. I've done a lot of testing and seen a lot of failures of springs that were designed right to know that you don't know what life to expect until it dies. Even though the cycles are low (how often do you pull in the clutch) for every 10% increase in max stress you lose a factor of 10 of life. This would be ok if the springs have infinite (or 1 million cycles which ever came first) life by design. But if they are designed for 1000 cycles and you reduce by 10, then you have only 100 cycles of life. Hope you make it home. ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by thumperclone on 03/25/07 at 13:48:37 good job you guys!!! any rpm stats???b4 and after>>mpg ?? cost of mod?? 8) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/25/07 at 15:38:44 thumperclone wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/25/07 at 15:52:28 tbalam wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 03/25/07 at 17:45:42 I got about 30 miles on her today, it was 80 and a perfect day for a ride. It feels to me that where I was in fifth is now where I am in fourth. In short I have essentially gained an extra gear. Now at 70+ it is a very comfortable RPM. THough I have noticed that she vibrates a lot more, But that might be jujst because of the extra load on the engine. Shimming the clutch was a bad idea for me, like i said earlier I think I have the high friction springs anyway. So I'll be taking the clutch cover off this week and removing the shims, Other than that the mod was a complete success. I am still thinking of going down to a 15 or 16 tooth front, just to take some of my fat assed load off the engine. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/26/07 at 06:59:03 tbalam wrote:
I ordered the 16 tooth(2.69ratio) and it should be here this week. I didn't notice any extra vibes, but that could be because it was 45-50 degrees when I have been riding and I was freezing(blood thinners stink)anyway. They say 70 degrees today, so if I can avoid the "scattered" thundershowers I will see. I'm thinking that the 16 would bring me back to 4th gear at 25mph in town. I would still shave around 500RPM off at 70-75mph. If I get a chance I will change to the 14 today and see if it still will use the same chain. The 16 and 14 will probably use the same chain, and that might be the way I will go. I don't need to go 100mph, just want lower r's at highway cruise. All I know is I like the idea of being able to "choose" my gearing and being able to fix the chain on the side of the road. I agree that it is a success and for under $100(less o-ring chain) you can buy the 13 for the spacer and the 17, 16, and 14, along with the 43 rear, for whatever you want to do. Ride safe Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/26/07 at 13:21:12 Just got back from a mileage check. I used the state map distances and the signs on Interstate 75. 264 miles round trip at an average of 75-80mph, did use third lane on occasion(80-85mph). Total gas consumption, 4.5 gallons.I used to get 50-52 mpg on the back roads(55-60mph) with a 152.5 main and 55 pilot. I am now running a bigger 155 main and flying down the interstate at 75-80mph and getting 58.5mpg.No screaming rpms, just a smooth level groove that it falls into. I must also mention that it was calm when I left this morning, but on the way back I was bucking 20-25mph wind gusts. Even with the wind gust there was no need to downshift to pass any vehicle, just roll on the throttle.On two lane black top at 50-55mph it is just an easy lope, and all that is needed is a twist of the throttle to get a STRONG, STEADY acceleration, no down shift needed. This is the best $95 I ever spent. WHOLE NEW BIKE. The 14 tooth sprocket makes it a little quicker off the line than stock, but I was all the way to end of adjustment and chain was not as tight as it should be. If you ran the 16 tooth(2.69ratio) and 14 tooth you will be able to use the same chain. I have the feeling that I will DEFINATELY be running the 17/43(2.53ratio) 99.9% of the time. This is just what I was looking for, PERFECT for me. Later Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by justin_o_guy on 03/26/07 at 20:11:22 Well,, it is just cool as heck knowing I will have a bike I can play with how I want. Soon as I get it ironed out, carb tuned & cam chaine & cam, get a few miles on that set of mods & I th8nk I will go this way. By tyhen the belt will be getting a bit tired I expect. I dont knw how many full on starts a belt takes before it cries "Uncle".. Chain drives are more efficient, the frictiuon losses of the belt vary from bike to bike. The quieter, the better. Mine speaks to me too much. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Rockin_John on 03/27/07 at 00:20:15 Just want to throw in another BIG thanks to you guys for hammering this thing out. Having this info available may allow me to stick with these simple bikes I really like. I WAS looking at bigger (read that heavier, more expensive and complicated bikes) now I'm thinking I'll keep the pair of these around! Now that I have two of these bikes, I'm thinking chop/bob for town and country, and a 'road' bike. At least one will get the chain drive. Probably both! A chopper that will rocket to 70 with dropped gearing, and a road bike that will putt-putt at 75-80mph sounds like a fine duo to me! This opens up great opportunities for me. I can put the pair of these on a small trailer, and invite friends on overnight or weekend trips like I used to do with dirt bikes. A pair of Savages on a 6'x10' trailer should only weigh in at 1500# - 2000# or so. My wife has already offered to drive the Envoy for road support on a long ride up HWY #1 that I've owed myself since 1970. Sincerly in your debt, John K P.S. As Hutch led the way on actually achiving results, and was first to get-r-done on the cheap, I've decided to make a donation of $20 to the forum in his name. Please let the donation records reflect as such. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Reelthing on 03/27/07 at 01:35:19 say when on the hiway #1 you might get some company |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/27/07 at 06:09:58 Thanks Rockin _John, I appreciate the gesture!!! On your chopper/bobber I would suggest using the 14/45 combo. It gives you a ratio of 3.21 versus the 14/43 and a 3.07 ratio. When I tried the 14/43 out it was a slightly better take off than stock 2.96, but not a whole lot. Just a suggestion. I do love the 17/43 for the highway, it is perfect for my weight and needs. Thanks again!! Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Rockin_John on 03/27/07 at 08:17:11 Reelthing wrote:
Will do. I recall that a couple of people commented on that route in a "dream ride" subject some time back. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Rockin_John on 03/27/07 at 09:15:16 hutch wrote:
That's the beauty of the whole chain thing... you can have it any way you want it! Back about 1975 my car conked out on me. I was broke, and my Yamaha DT-250 enduro bacame my primary transport. I took the dirt knobs off that I'd had on it, and put some more streetable tires back on it; then geared it WAY up by changing both sprockets. The thing would go around 100mph! I was afraid to ride it often over about 85mph though; because it got pretty twitchy above that. But with the Savage, like you, I'm not looking for a land speed record. It would just be nice to have at least one of the bikes set to Putt along at Interstate speed. The sad part of all this is: The Savage is my first Belt driven bike, and I was really enjoying that aspect. I've had shaft drive bikes, and though they have their benefits, the distractions really bothered me. If Suzuki had used a seriously wide ratio transmission in the Savage in the first place, all of this modification would not be necessary, and the belt could stay. Ahh... Well, that's what has made me a DIY'er all my life anyways. Seems I could never be happy with the way things are made, or someone else's work. It's the curse of wanting to have things exactly the way YOU want them. The rewards in having exactly what you want at your own craft have usually been well worth the effort, in my experience. Having done a lot of industrial prototype work gives me a keen appreciation for the labor saved by those who light the path for others to follow. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/27/07 at 10:14:21 I don't think of it as a curse, more like "individualism" |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 03/28/07 at 02:17:02 Hi guys, I could have sworn I had posted on this thread yesterday, but can't find my post... ??? I still have the typical belt drive on my 1988 4speed, and as you will guess top gear, being a 4th gear, is rather short legged. I am interested in the chain drive converion myself, but cannot remember the final drive ratio with the belt drive, I'd like to make it a good 10% longer ratioed, and get a little more speed at my cruising 4000 rpm. Thanks |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 03/28/07 at 02:32:33 Actually, I had posted but in the wrong Section, Tech Support and all that, got a finger wagged at me ;) Still, I would need to know if I can venture out to a motorcycle junkyard and come away with what model sprockets, and how many teeth. ;D Thanks all. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/28/07 at 06:41:19 mpescatori wrote:
Believe it or not the final ratio on your 4 speed is LONGER than the 5 speed, not much ,but it is.To get a 10% longer ratio you would need to go to a 17/45 sprocket, or a 16/43 for a 9% longer ratio. All the info I posted in the tech document section. If you want to run at 4000 rpm with either of these sprocket ratios, you will be going about 70- 75mph. I don't know why junkyard parts won't work but the price of new is not that bad. Be sure to get an axtra FRONT sprocket to make the spacer you need on the trans shaft. It is all explained in the tech section with pics. Hope this helps. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 03/28/07 at 11:21:11 Hi Hutch Thanks to you and Tbalam for all you investgation in this converting. Been following this message since start and today I bought both 17 and the 43 and a 14 as a spacer, going to fix that one tomorow, removed everything and remember you wrote that to loosen the 32 mm nut go lefty, do you meen like a normal nut and the bike is moving forward, am I right? The nut is stuck as hell. Did put som WD 40 on tonight and hope is going loose tomorow. Might have to go for heat as well. But my question is, is it right that the bike moves forward when I try to remove the nut? Odar in Sweden |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/28/07 at 12:36:36 Odar wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 03/28/07 at 13:46:32 Hi again I went out to the garage one more time this evening and guess. I got it lose, used the same tecnic that you did put a bar throught the wheel and of it went even if it was tight for a coupel of turns, so tomorow I will go on removing the rear wheel and start to put everything back on. Any other problems that I should think of during the way ? What did you use to cut the 40 mm piece out of the 13 teeth spocket? My 14 teeth spocket is 7,5 mm thick hope its the same as the 13. I do have some machins at my job that I can use. BTW I have 2 minuted ride to my lokal Suzuki shop and they had all the stuff at the shop, thats great even if it was a bit more expencive. Odar |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/28/07 at 14:11:12 Odar wrote:
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/28/07 at 14:40:32 Hey Hutch, I think you said this, but why can't you use a metal washer with the correct thickness and center size? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 03/28/07 at 14:48:26 I bought the JT sprockets Went out and measured again, at the center of the sprocket its exactly 8,5 mm thick. The part number on the bag is JTF513.14 Material High carbon steel and on the bag it say www.jtsprockets.com Must be the right one? Have not removed the fron sprocket to measure,its almost midningt here, but I dont want to cut out the 40 mm tomorow if its not the right width of the sprocket. Could it be 8,5 instead of 10 that you claim that you have? Odar |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 03/28/07 at 14:51:13 Odar, I think you could take up the extra space with a steel washer. I still can't see why you can't use a smooth center bore since the stock spacer isn't splined ??? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/28/07 at 15:25:11 Odar wrote:
If you have JT sprockets then you should be fine. Just put your sprocket on and slide the other sprocket on and see if you need to add spacer, or sand down your spacer like I did. That should tell you the whole story. As long as the toothed washer JUST hangs on the spline, it will tighten up without any sloppiness in the assembly.If it looks good, go ahead and make your spacer out of the small sprocket. I was going buy another persons measurement and didn't use a mircometer. I did have to disc sand a slight amount of metal off both sides of my spacer, so that might have brought the measurement down to what you stated.7.5-8.5mm. Let me know if you have any problems. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 03/29/07 at 03:52:23 Right, Hutch, so I guess my belt drive ratio is around 2.9 / 3:1 So, if I bought a 43 tooth rear sprocket, I could toy with... a 16/17 front, to have a 9/11% longer ratio (2,6895/2,529), plus a 14 tooth, to have the original ratio (3,07) a 13 tooth for a traffic light scorcher bobber (3.30) Correct? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/29/07 at 06:21:28 mpescatori wrote:
Hutch |
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Title: Suzuki GS500E works OK? Post by mpescatori on 03/30/07 at 01:12:47 OK Hutch, I have found a german seller with a brand new Suzuki GS500E chain&sprocket set, he claims "No. of teeth are 16/39" which is 2.4375... ...a bit too long, you would think... 20% longer means my 4000rpm cruising would become 3200rpm. Anyway, for basic information, you said there is full compatibility between the Savage and GS550/GSX models of +/- the same years... what about the GS500? Thx, Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Suzuki GS500E works OK? Post by hutch on 03/30/07 at 07:11:57 mpescatori wrote:
The gs500 will not work, it has a larger bolt pattern for the rear sprocket. Tbalm was nice enough to post a list of bikes that have the correct sprockets for the front and rear. It will take you to the JT Sprocket site, for a list of the bikes that used the front or back sprocket you need. It is the second post in the tech/document section about the conversion. Just go there and you will find a LONG list of the models that used the front sprocket. Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki used the front sprocket, but it depends on how many teeth you want to be able to get the right one from a STOCK junkyard bike. The rear sprocket was used ONLY on Suzuki. That list is a lot shorter. Hope this helps. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 03/31/07 at 04:42:29 Yep, I browsed through JTSprockets' website and have found a number of bikes which seem to use the same rear sprocket. For the sake of being certain, it is a sprocket with 5 fixing bolts, with a 110mm circumference for the bolt pattern. Front is JTF 513, rear JTR 829 Is that OK? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/31/07 at 08:04:22 mpescatori wrote:
The JTF 513 is correct, but the rear is JTR 816 with a 100mm bolt pattern. The list of bikes with rear sprockets is a lot shorter than for the front, but there still are several, so the sprocket should be easy to find at the junk yard. I am glad you got in touch. Getting the wrong part is never fun. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 03/31/07 at 15:45:09 Hi Hutch I did it and was driving today (200 km or125 miles) on different roads, small curvy ones to highway and town, I used the same sprockets that you did 17/43 and bought a SO530 Oring chain 110, did remove 2 links then it was done. As spacer I used 7 splinced lockwashers, orderd 9 from the Suzukishop but needed only seven to take up the space, I did make a piece it stainless steel, 25 mm dia. in the hole and 40mm outside dia. The thickness of the spacer should be 7,5mm if making one. But ended up using the washers when I got them yesterday. There was some problems about the Oring chain, its is a bit wider than the one you used so I had to remove the bracket to the chaingard on the swingarm, both on top and at bottom, not to bad at the bottom but the chain bent it backwards so I did remove that one to. I can still use the chaingard if I want because I made a spacer that has a slice on one side so I can put it on the axel at the inner side of the suspension if I dont want the chaingard. Its like you say totally diffrent bike to drive, a lot nicer but I think I will go for the 16 in front, going to bay that on monday and make a switch, I found it a bit difficult to find the right gear sometimes 2 or 3 when driving very slow in town, and I didnt have mutch use of the 5 gear exept on highway, gear 4 is now a bit higher then gear 5 was before. So from the 14,5 % I will try 9,5 instead. And I think it should have been better to use 17/45 instead of 16/43 because of the tight space to the swingarm at the fronpully, but I am to lazy to change both for the moment. Final conclucion: I LIKE IT ;DGREAT ;D And thanks to Hutch and Tblam and the rest of you that start all investigation and made it possible for this swap. Pics are comming later. Sorry for the spelling, but its not my languish. Odar in Sweden |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 03/31/07 at 16:17:05 Odar, glad to hear you like it. I went with 17/43 because I am only 150 pounds and do most of my riding in the country(55-60mph) and some highyway. I found 3rd gear in town for me was just right. This the reason that any ratio taller than 2.53 would be very hard on the clutch and be terrible in town,2nd gear probably. If you have heavy headwinds and a lot of hills, or drive in town a lot I would definately go with the 17/45(2.65 ratio) or 16/43(2.69 ratio). I think by going to the 16 on the front you will be happy, going by the type of riding you do. You have to remember that the sweet spot for cruising is based on TWIN cylinder motorcycles, not a SINGLE. I am trying to talk a person out of going with a 17/39(2.29 ratio) as I type this. I know he will be not be happy with the outcome. That is why I am glad you let us know of your findings. THANK YOU FOR THE FEEDBACK. All feedback will make it easier for those in the future to figure out what sprockets they need for their weight and type of riding they do. Thank you again for sharing your experience. After all this is an experiment, and we need all the information we can get. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 04/01/07 at 01:56:41 I think you should stop this guy from putting on 17/39 his bike its going to be a dog. Have you tryed the 14/43 on your bike, not that I want to go back to original gerings but I wonder does it fit or does it hit the swingarm close to the front sprocket? You know I going to buy 16 teeth tomorow and wonder if it is possible to put it on, might have to bend the top ear for the screw to chaingard a bit out. This chain is defenitly wider than yours. Odar |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 04/01/07 at 03:23:05 hutch wrote:
ouch !!! :o I'm glad I didin't order right away, the rear sprocket I had quoted only has 5 bolts and a 110 mm diameter, the 816 you quote has 6 and a 100mm diameter!!! Talk about incompatibility !!! :-[ I see the JTR816 comes in all sizes from 38 to 52 teeth, I'll probably go for the 45 and buy 17, 15, 13 teeth for cruising solo, city, two up respectively. I've always liked close ratiuos for mountain driving, never been much of a high speed addict but I do like to feel the bike climb up the steep ones, rather than just survive in 3rd. Chain type, 50, I thought chain types came in 3-digit sizes? PS Can I use the JTF 513 only, or can I use the JTF 566 as well? (without the two small fixing holes) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 04/01/07 at 06:45:44 Odar wrote:
Yes I tried the 14 and it was almost the same as the stock gearing. The chain didn't hit the the swingarm at the front or the chain/belt guard brackets, so the o-ring chain is definately wider. I will have to make a note of that in the tech section. I also tried the 16 tooth and had no problems. You can even use the same chain length, it falls a little past the center of your adjustment. You can leave it that long if you want to switch back and forth between sprockets, or shorten 1 link if you decide to run just the 16.The 16 is perfect for hilly riding or town(3-4th gear), but still is better for highway riding than stock. Let me know what you think of the 16. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Greg_650 on 04/01/07 at 07:00:58 barry68v10 wrote:
I don't see why you can't either. The only splines that you need are on the sprocket and the tab washer. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 04/01/07 at 07:09:10 mpescatori wrote:
The chain you need is the 530 series. I looked up the JTF566 sprocket on the JT web site and it says that there is no listing for it. Could you have typed it wrong?? All those extra holes are for is using a puller to get a stubborn sprocket off. As long as you get the front sprocket from one of the models listed for the JTF513, you will have no problem. One other thing to note is that it seems the o-ring chain is wider and causes problems with the 4 belt guard mounting brackets. I am running a non o-ring, and have had no problem at all with the chain hitting the guard brackets. I haven't tried a 13 but it might have a problem with the chain hitting. Good Luck, and let me know how it works out. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 04/01/07 at 09:57:21 Make a note about the spacer for the beltguard as well. Buy a 3mm thick and with a hole that is 17mm and make it look like a U, then you can chose if you want to use the chaingard or not, take only 5 minutes to switch. BTW you can remove the top bracket on the swingarm and on the beltgard and still mount it saftley (2 points), dont know way its there at all, cut it off and put on some paint. Going to buy the 16 and testdrive tomorow ;D I wait with pics till I am satisfied. Odar |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by mpescatori on 04/01/07 at 10:58:44 The JTF 513 is listed as alternative for the JTF 566, but click on the lin566 in the 513 page and it will say the 566 is discontinued. So that explains it. I also understand your concerns re: the chain rubbing against the (swingarm?) brackets/chainguard, maybe I understand what you mean maybe I do not - technically - but I do understand what you mean from a purely conceptual point of view - the front sprocket being so small the chain will rub against the swingarm etc.etc. I remember whan, in the '50s, an Italian mechanic came up with a "hi gear/low gear" contraption for motorcycles, mainly aimed at working trikes (with a small flatbed on the back): the final drive would only reach halfway, where a 2nd stage final drive would allow for two ratios with a floating sleeve, which would engage either a 1:1 ratio chain driev, or a 1.5:1...3:1 chain drive. Easier to see than to describe really. Extremely popular with the heavier trikes that would routinely carry payloads up to 400Kg. (900lbs) Old Guzzis Hercules and the like Still, a similar contraption would allow to determine two final drive ranges on the same bike for flat or hilly riding, say a 3:1 and a 2.6:1 , just pull over, neutral, twist handle this way or that and you're off !!! Should research this, actually... ::) |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 04/01/07 at 13:34:42 Odar wrote:
Odar I tried to modify my conversion instructions with the added part about the shock bolt spacer and give you credit for the idea. Guess what? It told me my post was to long and to make it shorter. I just barely got the spacer part in, but I couldn't give you credit for it, not enough room SORRY!! I can't wait to see how you like the 16 and see some pics. Hutch |
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Title: Odar I tried to modify mRe: chain drive conversion Post by Odar on 04/01/07 at 14:17:20 Hutch Dont worry my friend, its good if you make it as short as possible. I let you know tomorrow, and hopefully some pics as well. Odar |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 04/21/07 at 19:39:05 What a beautiful day. Did some work at my son's house and he and his wife took off to Supercross. . My son's father-in-law and I looked at each other. ROAD TRIP !!!!70 degrees, calm winds. Hit M-46 east to Port Sanilac, turned north on 25, followed the Lake Huron shore line all the way to tip of the thumb circled back down along the Saginaw Bay shore line. His 1200 Sportster and my Savage just humming down the sweeping State highway. No racing, just jockeying for position on the next sweeping turn. Average speed 60mph. Great time. When I did my last mpg test on the interstate I went from 52mpg with belt drive, to 58mpg with 17/43 chain. I was averaging 75-80mph. Today with the 55-60mph just cruising, I got 62mpg. Up 10mpg from stock gearing. At 60mph his Screaming Eagle slash cut mufflers and my Jardine slash cut just fell into a song. It kind of sounded like a three cyclinder Harley. Like I said GREAT DAY. LOVE this chain conversion. L-VYRA is right at home humming down the highway, instead of screaming rpm's like before. Odar, Tbalam, any comments about your chain conversion, now you have some miles on your bikes? Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by clueless on 04/21/07 at 20:06:48 I put the same ratios as you did Hutch. 6' 220lbs. I love it. Stir the box a bit more in town but make up for it on the highway. Much better on the ol mill all in all. My hat's off to you guys. Jim |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by tbalam on 04/21/07 at 20:21:55 I agree hutch best money spent on the beast so far, She is a real joy to ride now I don't feel like it is straining anymore. Clueless, I am about your size as well and it works well with us big guys. I am thinking of going with a 150 rear tire on the next change and if I do I'll go down to a 16 front. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by clueless on 04/21/07 at 20:34:17 tbalm, The best way to describe the difference is that that gear I've been trying to grab is now THERE. It is kinda like having a 6 speed. Now I can cruise and enjoy it. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 04/22/07 at 07:05:52 Tbalam, That tire change would be perfect with the 16. That is what Odar did and he said it was perfect. Clueless, I know what you mean. From the time I drove the Savage home from the dealer I kept trying to find that LAST gear. It's there NOW!!!! The little Savage has good torque. I was not sure how it would work out for anyone over 200lbs. I know what you mean about stirring an extra gear. We went through a lot of small towns along the shoreline, but The Sportster was running in 3rd in town just like me. Actually we were both shifting at about the same time for the whole 200 mile ride. Glad it is working out for everyone. ENJOY, and RIDE SAFE. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by vroom1776 on 06/14/07 at 13:00:04 hey guys! great work here! I would like to use the chain drive conversion to make the savage a rocketship up to 80 mph... sooo that essentailly means hitting 80 mph at redline in 4th (I'm riding a 5 speed). and I want to be able to get the front wheel up easily... Crucnhed all the numbers... a 13-43 setup has a huge 3.308 ratio... giving 6265 rpm at 83 mph in 4th (assuming the tranny 5/4 ratio 0.956/0.884 = 1.081 I used is right) with the stock tire. this'll redline me in 1st around 36 mph or so. a 13-50 will redline at about 30 in first, and 75 in 4th..., but ther's no good single sprocket swap out for the freeway... seems like I could then swap out a 17 front for the freeway. opinions and recomendations appreciated. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 06/14/07 at 13:38:22 vroom, It is one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" situations. A 3.57 would make it a rocket, but you will not want to run the highway. It would be as feasable as trying to drive a funny car on the highway.Running a 15/50 would stiil make it have a lot more accel, and you would still be able to run 55-60 for long distance, definately no interstate 75-80. |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by vroom1776 on 06/14/07 at 13:56:01 yeah, I completley get that... The idea in my head is to be able to switch 1 of the two sprockets to convert it from a rocket around town to a decent highway bike. what do you think of the 13-43? then I could throw on the 17 for the freeway... I don't think I'd have quite the power I want at 13-43, but close... Think I'd still be able to get the wheel up? and now I'm thinking this might kill me... hmmm... maybe I should shim the clutch springs... thanks, V |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by hutch on 06/14/07 at 19:15:44 vroom, you would be surprised how much power there is with the 17/43. The 13/43 would give you your stop light to stoplight. You will need to have two chains. I tried to run the same chain and it is at the end of adjustment with the 13 and is to long. Hutch |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 06/15/07 at 15:05:31 From a longevity standpoint, you want the BIGGEST sprockets you can get, i.e. if you can run a 17 on the front and get the ratio you want, do it. On the other hand, you're then stuck with swapping the chain AND rear sprocket when you want a changed ratio. In that case a constant rear sprocket, with an easier front sprocket and possibly chain swap would be quicker and easier. Again, there's trade-off's, and like hutch said, "you can't have your cake and eat it too." |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Beezer72 on 06/23/07 at 10:14:32 Hello all, I am new to the site and am now the proud owner of a 1986 LS 650, I was wanting some information about the chain conversion, which sprockets would work for my bike, if you could make it easy as possible for me, I would greatly appreciate it, also I will be riding alot of 2 up, aprox weight of riders 300#, which gear ratio would be best to recieve maximum torque. we do not do alot of hughway cruising so top speed only needs to be in the 65-70 mph range, any info would be greatly appreciated, Beez |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Rockin_John on 06/23/07 at 12:22:45 Welcome Beezer, While I haven't been directly involved in the chain conversion or done one yet, I do own both an old 87 model 4-speed and a 99 model 5-speed. So, I'm very familiar with the gearing feel and shift points of both types. I think that will give me perspective to help you out. Also, I weigh over 250 all by myself, so I load a bike almost as much as your 2-up situation. I'd have to say that I would be reluctant to gear the old 4-speed any higher than stock, unless I was much lighter, and planned on riding the highway at 65-70+ a LOT. One of the main reasons being that the 4-speed has a bit of a tall first gear to start with, and making it significantly higher would be hard on the clutch. And OTOH, If you want to maintain the ability to cruise at 65-70 for any length of time, you certainly don't want to gear the bike down any; because it is already geared barely high enough to cruise at those speeds as stock. So what I highly recommend is to continue to ride the bike geared just as it is with the belt, unless you have some serious shortcoming in the performance or suitability for the type of riding you do. Only when and if you decide that the bike is being worked too hard on the highway, or you need more pull because you live in a hilly area; THEN... MAYBE you might want to look at the chain conversion. Remember, that you can get a slight gearing change by changing rear tire size/profile. Frankly, I'd recommend that anyone planning to use a Savage for a lot of 2-up riding, consider trading up for a 5-speed model. While the top gear is only very slightly taller (when the difference in primary gears is considered)... First gear is noticeably lower, and the other gears are spread at very handy intervals for a variety of in town and road riding. In fact, I've been thinking about the best use for my old 4-speed Savage. I've wanted to have several of the bikes, each converted for different uses. I don't see the 4-speed as good potential for a scrambler type bike; because of it's lack of wide enough gear ratios. The same goes for it being any other type of bike that needs a really wide choice of gear ratio. So... I'm thinking it would be put to best use as either a very high geared solo highway bike, where taking off in a really tall first gear wouldn't matter much. Or, perhaps a cafe' style bike with the gearing set to really pull in the 15-65mph range where I enjoy peg dragging most. I'm not much for really high speed road racing style riding. I am quite capable of scaring myself plenty enough below 70mph thank you :o As it happens, the bike pulls great in that speed range with the belt that is already on it... so no need to change anything if I were to cafe' it! ;D |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Beezer72 on 06/24/07 at 09:49:59 rockin_John, thanks for all your insight but maybee i should have told you the whole story, i bought the 86 as a wrecked parts bike and have since then designed and fabricated my own hardtail frame with a girder front end, trying to make it look like a slim 70's style chop, i would love to leave the belt drive for reliability and looks, as well as money and time, but the rear pulley being so big is giving me clearence issues, if i go down to a chain sprocket all issues are solved all i would have to do is cut a break side spacer for the axle. sound easy enough, my frame is stretched some so the factory belt wouldn't fit if i wanted it to so far i have a rolling chasis, and most of the parts i need for under $500, and that is the idea, to build as cool of a bike as possible for little money as possible, thanks again, The Beez |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 06/25/07 at 15:08:27 Beez, why do you need a break-side spacer? A sprocket is about the same thickness as the pulley at the bolts ??? |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by barry68v10 on 06/25/07 at 15:09:52 Ops, I meant "brake" not "break"... :-[ |
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Title: Re: chain drive conversion Post by Beezer72 on 06/27/07 at 21:37:19 Barry, thanks for your interest, I am shifting the wheel over about a half inch or so, not sure untill I get the sprocket on, so that my wheel spins in the center of my frame. I built a simple single down tube frame that is about 10" wide center to center, the swingarm i took off the bike is offset enough to account for the excessively large belt drive pulley, which wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't spaced so far off the rim. Beez |
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