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Message started by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 08:31:01

Title: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switch
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 08:31:01

Helloooooo Savages!

First of all, let me remind everyone that mine is a 1997 model.

Second, I've been studying the wiring diagram and redrawing it for a while now.

What I want to do is remove the the clutch lever interlock, side stand switch, diode (i.e. the double diode), and the relay.

So the connections I need to make are:

1) short the y/g wires at the clutch lever switch. This shorts one end of the starter switch to the decomp. contoller. (I've already done this and it works).

2) short either orange going into the side stand relay to the o/b leaving the side stand relay. This will leave the kill switch functional.

3) [a] removing the kill switch: short the o/b in 2) to the o/w of the starter. This let's the starter do it's job and continues to provide the signal the Ignitor needs (also shorted to the ignition coil). Now the bike can only be turned off witht he igniton (key) switch or by stalling it.

3 [b] short the Gray to the O at the right handle bar box. This needs to be done since the igniton switch gets power from there for some reason. This is the circuit that powers the always on tail light when the ignition switch is in the "ON" position.

I am forgoing a front brake light switch. Now I will only have 8 wires going to the front of the bike:
3 for the headlight, 2 for the coil, and 2 for the decomp sol. The starter and hi/low switches will be under the seat.

I can now remove all the garbage suzuki put under there, like the double diode, side stand relay, lots of wires...

Sooooooooooooo, anyone see any problems with this setup?

I'm gonna do some real work, then come back here and recheck everything.

Thanks,

V

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/07/07 at 09:51:06

Done yet?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 10:07:45

I don't see any typos... so, yes. This sound good to you greg?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 10:20:29

In the diagram below, I've added some colors to indicate the conenctions described above. later I will post a "simplfied wiring diagram."

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/SavElectweb.jpg

1) = blue dot
2) = red line
3) [a] = green dot
3) [b] = light blue line

I have not shown new opens

Reading in the other recent electical thread (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1170821369), there are multiple frame grounds? The only one I can think of is from the battery to the engine. What other ones are there? or did I misread twice?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/07/07 at 11:20:56

All of the Black/White are actually ground.

Ever wondered about that little wire that is also attached to the battery ground? That little wire is the harness ground for all the isolated devices (relays and modules) and a few switches. I've got them all grounded to the frame.

To me it was like a Suzuki engineer on crack. Anytime they added a device, they connected the ground to some other device. No central termination. When you get in the harness, there are splices everywhere :P

I think that I have a picture of the whole thing unwrapped somewhere. It took me 40 hours to rewire it the way I wanted.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 11:31:25

yeah, I've noticed it's a real rat's nest in there. I'm not sure how much I'm gonna yank off... for now, I just want to remove the SSR, SSW, SSDD, KS,...

Do those connections sound correct?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/07/07 at 11:54:32

I'm taking a look at the original copy of the schematic...kinda hard to zoom the one on the site....

Does the green dot mean that you plan to connect those 2 wires?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 12:10:24

Greg_650 wrote:

Does the green dot mean that you plan to connect those 2 wires?

Yes. this should bypass botht he kill switch and the whole side stand interlock. At least, that's what I THINK should happen.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 12:13:34

Here's a diagram I drew of the simplified wiring harness. I tried to keep the colors as accurate as possible. I have not shown the headlight or hi/lo switch.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts.jpg

so here, there are obviously no turn sigs, horn, clutch or side stand interlock, stuff in the speedo, and associated relays...

so, I guess what I'm asking, will this work? :P

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/07/07 at 12:38:14

Looks possible. It is rather simplified, but if you remove everything and start from scratch...getting rid of safety devices, as I did...

Ever thought about chucking the Decomp module and relay? That could also be done manually with a lever like one of my old Yamahas.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 12:50:59

I'd love to. Not a project I'm ready for, though.

So this will get my bike started? If you say "yes," and it doesn't work, well, it's not your fault! (that's an unintentional pun).

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/07/07 at 13:08:18

I won't say that it won't work, but let's face it, there are a lot of wires that have to be dealt with. It can be done, it just has to be right.

When I redid my harness I could not start the bike until I was done, so I just kept my fingers crossed and took my time.

How about getting rid of your rear pegs?
:P
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/GMDLeftRear_1351.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/07/07 at 13:35:23

photoshop!

I took mine off. I'm hoping to use the left side pass peg hole to mount a jockey shift to one day...

Cool... alright, so I can read a circuit diagram reasonably well. Now I just have to do it... correctly!

Thanks for the confidence boost!

Hmmm... maybe I want go to the bar before I tackle this...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by slavy on 02/07/07 at 22:12:21

I was looking at the wiring schematic and it seems that the only thing You have to do is - to connect the O/W wire that goes in the igniter with the O/B wire that comes from the reg/rec. Depending where You will make the connection, the O/B wire might change the color to O.
This will solve everything exept the starter interlock switch /clutch lever position switch/. You have done it by connecting the 2 Y/G wires.
It seems pretty good idea if You like simplicity and reliability. Just double-check all the connections and follow Greg's advice.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/08/07 at 08:33:21

vroom1776 wrote:

No photoshop. Weldingshop!

I imagine that you'll go to the bar a couple times before you get it rewired too (I would) :)

Good luck on this job.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Swingarmmerge1web.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/08/07 at 11:52:17

wow! that's cool! and now looking at some otehr pics of yr bike, I see I've missed that trick feature in the past...

If I ever do the jockey shift, I'll have to do what you did to the right side...

So, back to the removing the decomp contoller, solenoid, and starter relay... This is something I would like to do, but again, not right now. But do you (anyone) know how to do this? making the lever would be relatively easy... but taking care of the rest might be tricky... and as I stare at my second diagram more, I think it's wrong...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/08/07 at 12:27:17

did some more staring... I found the wire I forgot... essentially the kill switch and side stand interlock short.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts2.jpg

the new black wire that goes from rectifier O/B to O/W on the ign coil.

Which is exactly what slavy said!

now I feel very confident about doing this!

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/08/07 at 12:38:47

The manual ones that I used on dirt bikes worked by bleeding a little combustion chamber pressure before kicking it over. They were 2 strokes, but I don't see why it wouldn't work here. Just remember that the first click you hear when starting the Savage is the decomp solenoid.

I think that all you'd have to do is get a small aftermarket lever and a universal cable from some place like JC Whitney. Then using the existing actuator and spring you tinker with the adjustment to open the exhaust valve a small amount as you push the starter button.

Pull the lever, start and let go. I think I'd put the lever on the right side, too.

Of course you want to remove the solenoid too.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by SAMM on 02/08/07 at 13:09:06

The Suzuki 80-81 GN 400 single 4 stroke has a lever to start it... It is mounted on the left side of the bars... But could go on either...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/08/07 at 13:22:06

the lever souldn't be the problem. I think you need to run the starter switch between the battery and the starter motor, with a short to the ignitor, as below. Now.... where does anyone find a spst switch rated for 30A? this seems like it should fry the ignitor, but that is already the way it is wired, from the factory, more or less. maybe add a fuse in there...

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts3.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Max_Morley on 02/08/07 at 14:17:47

I'd lose that single wire from the tail light as in the US it only serves to run down the battery when used accidently. Max

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/08/07 at 14:19:40

You mean in "park?" prolly a good idea!

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by barry68v10 on 02/08/07 at 15:05:15

Quote:

I'd lose that single wire from the tail light as in the US it only serves to run down the battery

Yes, I can see how that would be a very effective "battery discharge device" ;D

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/08/07 at 15:31:21

SAMM wrote:

The Suzuki 80-81 GN 400 single 4 stroke has a lever to start it... It is mounted on the left side of the bars... But could go on either...

My thinking was that if he wanted to start it in gear, that he's need his left hand for the clutch. Seemed possible that he could use the right and push the starter button at the same time...he said he's gonna get rid of the front brake too.

I don't know though.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/08/07 at 15:34:31

vroom1776 wrote:

I don't think you'll find a decent switch like that. Besides, you need bigger terminals. I'd keep the starter relay.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/08/07 at 15:36:10

barry68v10 wrote:

Yes, I can see how that would be a very effective "battery discharge device" ;D

I took mine to the dealer for it's initial service, and when I went to pick it up, I got a new battery because they left the taillight on :P

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/08/07 at 15:51:41

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts4.jpg

I'll prolly go back to a front brake at some point. Right now I just took it off to give to my father. He bought USGCerams' bike, which had a seized caliper. I've been praciticing using the rear only on Vroomette's savage. Seems okay... I'll probably end up with a sport bike 4-piston caliper (if I can find one that'll fit, or one I can make fit) and one of those little plastic MCs that weigh 4oz...

I imagine mounting the decomp lever on the left handlebar, dirtbike style

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Kropatchek on 02/09/07 at 02:10:59

See you stripped the electricals down to the bare minimum, think that will work. As for the decomp lever , you could even extent the lever in the head, bent it 90 degrees and operate it with your left hand.
Have found a German site of some guys that stripped their bike back to the essentials.

http://www.savage-extrem.de/index2.html

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/09/07 at 08:15:52

some cool ones bikes on there for sure... one of em looks super charged...

now, if I could read German... or pay Krops to trasnlate full time!

yeah, there are sooo many splices in there.. So far it looks like I can use most of the stock connectors... found the wires I need to short and install the new start switch.

this is the final wiring diagram I will use until I remove the decomp stuff...

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts5.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Max_Morley on 02/09/07 at 08:18:33

FWIW, need to fuse the light circuits in case a wire gets pinched, could burn up the whole project !! Max

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/09/07 at 08:27:22

This fused the same as stock, right? Which protects this...

well, one fuse is pretty easy... let's see... P=IV, the HL is 60W / 12V on high, so that's 5A. Tail/brake light = ?W/12 V *2 (both on). let's assume 60W (way too high, I'm sure). => 10A, so another 20A fuse ought to work...

I think in reality, it will be 2 10A or 15A fuses...

and the stock fuse box has a nightmare of splices there too.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/07 at 09:04:24

Fuses should be sized to protect the weakest link in the circuit. So it a wire in the circuit is rated for 20W, then the fuse for the whole circuit no matter what else is hooked to it should be 20W. Or vice versa. If you need a 40W fuse to run all of the devices in the circuit, then all of the wire should be rated for 40W or more.

You don't want to burn up your wire, it's harder to replace than the fuse.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/09/07 at 09:41:26

And seldom does one wire burn alone. It can toast the entire harness.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/07 at 11:29:44

I thinking about mod'ing the ig switch so that the engine runs in the park position for starting with the lights out.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/09/07 at 11:32:33

You could do that BUT can't you also remove the key in that position...?

Can you say, "I lost my keys goin' down the road?"

Hey, check this out...just need a little translation.

http://www.savage-extrem.de/tips/Kabelbaum.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/09/07 at 11:53:13

How does this diagram look now? I added fuses on the rear light and head light circuits. 6A fuses may be better. 5 will not cut it, at least for the head light. I will see what I can find.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts6.jpg

Verslagen, you can get a 6A SPDT switch that will take care of turning off the headlight. The switch I used is 3 position, such that the middle position is off. Link (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1130526053;start=0#0). Also, Ed_L wrote a tech sect article on how to instal a relay that turns off the headlight while you start it. Link (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1154216104)

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/09/07 at 12:03:56

One thing I do not like about this is how the head light and tail light are coming off of the O/B rect. wire which also goes to the coil/ignitor wire... but when the side stand relay kill switch are closed, it's the essentailly the same thing...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/09/07 at 22:20:55

allright, WHY THE HELL DOES MY RECTIFIER ONLY HAVE 5 WIRES COMING OUT OF IT ????????????????????

All the diagrams show 6, 3 for the magneto, 1 ground, and two powers, O/B & R/B. The one that came off my 97 had the 3 yellow magneto wires, the ground, and R/B. The connector in question has 3 prongs. I have a rectifier off of an 87 or so. It clearly has 6 wires all coming out from the same side. I swear up and down that my 97 only has 5. I will post a pic when I can.

What gives?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by TVR on 02/09/07 at 22:32:53

Vroom......Does it run? Then the force be with you... ;D

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/09/07 at 22:35:05

It did!

It's not like there's even another spot for a wire to have fallen out of!

I mean, geeze, ther germans have 6 wires coming out of their rectifiers! (whatever that is supposed to mean ?? )

The part numbers on the rectifiers are:

1997: SH535C-12
198x: SH535A-12

by Shindengen of Japan

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/07 at 23:52:57

Does that mean it's a 3 phase generator?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Kropatchek on 02/10/07 at 05:49:25

verslagen1 wrote:

Does that mean it's a 3 phase generator?

Affirmative

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Kropatchek on 02/10/07 at 06:09:45

For Greg: a little translation:

From the top:

Leerlauf = neutral switch

Seitenstander( offen) = sidestand ( open)
Licht = light
Zundbox = Ignition box
Spule = Ignition coil
Sicherungen = fuses
ZS = ignition switch
Regler = regulator

Hope for a better understanding of the schematic.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/10/07 at 07:05:38

Kropatchek wrote:

Thanks. I was actually figuring it out in reverse by reading the connections, but that is faster :)

I posted the drawing for Vroom and I don't really know the purpose of the schematic...seems to be a really chopped schematic which I thought might be helpful.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/10/07 at 07:10:15

the germ. schematic looks good, but they have 6 wires too! I just asked my room mate to count. he counted 5 on mine! Now i am soooo confused! Greg, does yours only have 5 wires?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/10/07 at 07:16:13

vroom1776 wrote:

the germ. schematic looks good, but they have 6 wires too! I just asked my room mate to count. he counted 5 on mine! Now i am soooo confused! Greg, does yours only have 5 wires?

I'll check....

Got it...

Remember what I said about the engineers on crack? There are 5 wires coming out of the rectifier, but they neglect to show that the red wire splits at the connector and becomes R/B and O/B.

That's why following the schematic alone isn't always good enough. You'll find other color changes at the other end of the harness going to the front end too :P

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Rectifier_1360.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/10/07 at 07:31:16

Vroomette's 98 clearly only has 5 wires. the three yellow, the groun, and the red/balck.

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/10/07 at 07:46:34

vroom1776 wrote:

Vroomette's 98 clearly only has 5 wires. the three yellow, the groun, and the red/balck.

No O/B at all? Anywhere?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 02/10/07 at 08:08:29

Not on the rectifier proper. There is a O/B wire coming out of the connector on the that goes to the rest of the wiring harness, as well as the R/B & B/W. But where it goes to the rect, it is just a dead end.

In the factory service manual, the first page or so has a schematic with the mag, rect, bat, and ign switch. In essence, it shows the two hot leads coming out of the rect sorted to the hot on the battery.

thanks for the pic & comments, greg. I'll stop freakin' out now.

Yeah, those engineers did something screwy! crack alone may not be enough... maybe some LSD?

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 02/10/07 at 08:10:34

That's what I thought.

It's not a dead end, it's a fork in the road :P

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/07 at 09:03:48

I've seen this before.
It means there was at least 2 engineers working on the bike and they hated each other.
Been there, done that...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 03/12/07 at 13:14:05

update:

The new wiring harness works... I left an extra lead on there for an old style rect just in case. I've posted two diagrams below. the top is for rectifiers w/ 6 wires, the second is for rects with 5 wires. I will say, though, that I haev not tried it with a 6 wire rectifier, but I am 99% sure it will work.

Anyone think these diagrams should go in the tech sect?

6 wire (old style) rectifier:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts6.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 03/12/07 at 13:15:29

5 wire (new style) rectifier:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts6_5wire_rect.jpg

okay, the link won't work, here's the url:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts6_5wire_rect.jpg

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/07 at 18:07:32

vroom1776 wrote:

update:

Anyone think these diagrams should go in the tech sect?

6 wire (old style) rectifier:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Simplfied_parts6.jpg

Only if the bike runs :P

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 03/13/07 at 08:58:41

it wants to run...

have spark, decomp, and starter motor... no fuel... will fix this PM...

fuel gets to float bowl... it started for a bit on Sat, until I turned it off... so I have compression...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/07 at 09:00:29

vroom1776 wrote:

Interesting. Keep at it...

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 03/14/07 at 07:58:54

idle adjust screw was too far out seems to run great...

now I just need to get the clutch perch welded back on...

Thanks to all who helped me in this thread (and all the others...)

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 08:37:32

vroom1776 wrote:

idle adjust screw was too far out seems to run great...

now I just need to get the clutch perch welded back on...

Thanks to all who helped me in this thread (and all the others...)

Does this deserve another question?

:o

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by vroom1776 on 03/14/07 at 10:56:02

which part?

let's see... I'm gonna guess it is about why the clutch perch needs to go back on... well... it came off... while the engine was on the floor, somebody (most likely me while drunk), knocked the engine over and it snapped off. Took it to the best machine shop in town, they told me to just make a bracket out of angle iron and bolt it down with the speedo drive thread part. I got an M16 nut that fit, and they are welding a cap on... so that is my project for tonight (maybe tomorrow as Vroomette will be in town tonight...)

but... I could have also meant, all the other threads where I'm all panicky and everyone chimes in with good ideas....

Title: Re: Removing Side Stand Interlock & Kill Switc
Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 11:03:38

vroom1776 wrote:

That's funny.

That's exactly what I wondered...and I think I was fairly justified, too. A broken clutch perch is a new one for this forum. Just the visual of the engine getting knocked around the floor is rather humorous. Crap happens though. Mmmmm....Beeerrr :P

Thanks.