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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> timing issue? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1170559556 Message started by jimbob57 on 02/03/07 at 19:25:56 |
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Title: timing issue? Post by jimbob57 on 02/03/07 at 19:25:56 Hi, I just bought a 2000 savage and it has a running problem. It will start and run but has no power and sounds like it's about to run out of gas when you give it gas. Or more like a chev 350 with extremely retarded timing. I've cleaned the carb jets, checked the diaphram for leaks, compression tested consistantly 175 psi, and the spark plug is new and burning great. So, I'm thinking valve and or camshaft timing. I've been told these bikes are bad about premature wear on the cam lobes if they're ever run low on oil. So is it more likely timing or cam lobes? |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by steelwolf on 02/03/07 at 19:47:18 My first impression would be the carb (float), the petc0ck, or the vacuum line between the two. Not likely to be the timing. Could be, but not likely. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by verslagen1 on 02/03/07 at 19:48:05 Is the bike stock? miles? a few quick and easy things to check before you go nuts... remove the vacuum line between carb and petc0ck and cap the carb port. then see how it runs. check the petc0ck for dirt, a quick clean can't hurt. any mods to the intake or exhaust will make it run lean. So put it back to stock until you figure it out or rejet it. You can check the cam lobs for wear. I don't know what they are supposed to measure. But do a valve adjust and see for your self. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Fido_the_Cat on 02/03/07 at 19:49:00 Your situation is "out of my league". Although I have read some thread here about the timing chain stretching and throwing things out of time. Really can appreciate your signature line. I think you will enjoy your stay here. WELCOME. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by jimbob57 on 02/03/07 at 20:07:00 Thanks for the quick replies. The bike is stock with 8800 miles on it. The previous owner said a mechanic friend set out to repair an oil leak between the cylinder and the head and it hasn't ran right since. I suppose it could be the petcock or vacuum line. It wouldn't run more than 50 mph and had no pulling power at all. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Bikemom28 on 02/03/07 at 20:13:05 I am almost woundering also If it isn't the carbs. How old is the battery? My husband bought a honda silverwing and It haden't ran in 7 years. He had the same problem as what you are having now. He cleaned the carbs out and replaced the clutch. But when the carbs were cleaned it still had the same issue you are having now. It was the battery. It was so old that the cells were not charging. we replaced the battery and now it's now having that issue. If you find it to be something else let me know cause I am curios as to what it is. Thanks And WELCOME TO THE SITE ;D |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by steelwolf on 02/03/07 at 20:38:03 jimbob57 wrote:
Sounds like he went to fix the plug/cap leak. If that's the case it could be the valves or be out of time. People do crazy things. Maybe the engine was rotated while apart and the chain jumped a tooth or two? Maybe the valves are way off if they were set with the engine warm or 180* out. That has happened a few times due to people having a hard time distinguishing the compression stroke from the exhaust. Good Luck. You definitely came to the right place for help though. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by stinger on 02/03/07 at 23:45:31 steelhead might be right. the mechanic might have followed the clymer manuals instructions and rotated the engine clockwise instead of counter clockwise when adjusting the valves. i know that is one of the errors in the manual. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Reelthing on 02/04/07 at 00:57:15 jimbob57 wrote:
Hum, that repair may throw our standard thinking off - any idea what steps were taken to fix this oil leak? the most likely source of the leak is the rubber plug in the head cover and just needs replaced and sealed of which steps are post in the tech section and does not involve taking the head off just the cover. - now we've read about shops thinking this leak is a head gasket and pulling the head off to fix it. If the head off was done and it hasn't ran right since sounds like the cam wasn't aligned properly when the chain went on - couple teeth off sure make it run bad. here was a recent trail: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1167984759 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1168773479 |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by barry68v10 on 02/04/07 at 05:03:01 I definately sounds like something more serious considering it never ran right after the head came off, however, I had all kinds of unexplainable problems with mine until I converted the petc0ck to manual operation. As the debris in the bottom of the tank continued to flow thru the fuel line into the HUGE external fuel filter I installed, I had a couple instances of pieces of debris catching inside the line and starving out the engine. I blew on the gas tank to create pressure, and that cleared the block the few times it happened. (Admittedly looked pretty funny. ::)) Check the simple things first then move to the more complex. Could there be water in the float bowl? Sounds like your pretty much doing that, but if we can save you some pain and suffering, great! |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by jimbob57 on 02/04/07 at 06:24:22 The head was taken off. Yellow sealer evidence that the head, generator cover and clutch cover were taken off. Also evidence to me the mechanic was not that particular. It was taken to a friend of the owner and not a shop. He was supposedly a Harley mechanic but I suspect from recent discoveries that he was either incompetent or out for revenge. I discovered that the washer between the clutch basket and the flywheel was off and loose in the cage. Clutch did not work. It's possible that this was an oversight. The drive pulley on the engine was turned around backwards and rubbing the cover. Also possibly an oversight. The battery hot cable was just loose enough that it would sometimes not make contact. Ground cable tight. Maybe another oversight. I'm going to try the vacuum on the petcock today before going in to reset the timing. The way it ran it could be starving for gas. This bike is for my wife who is going from dirt bike to street bike and I want to be sure it's a good experience for her all the way around. Thank you all for your sharing your knowledge and experience. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by sparkett on 02/04/07 at 06:31:10 Sure sounds like timing to me. If he had all kinds of things apart, check the cam chain tensioner too.It does sound like revenge!Harley guys hate it when these little guys leave em behind! ;D |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Greg_650 on 02/04/07 at 06:48:16 My thought? Back to basics. Since you checked a few things, remember this... Air, Fuel and Ignition...those are the 3 things that you need. Don't cloud it with a lot of other thoughts. Did the other guy remove the Headcover or the Head? If he removed just the Headcover to fix the plug leak, then chances are that he didn't mess with the camshaft. Only if he removed the Head would that be an issue. Go to the tech section and read Vroom's article on valve adjusting and see if the timing looks to set right (besides, it's idling...I doubt any of this) Another thing...the camshaft shouldn't be worn at 8800. Even if you run it low on oil, the camshaft lobes sit in a little pool of oil in the top of the head. So even on the first crank they get a little coating as they rotate. Some idiot would have to run it so low that the oil pump starved out before that would be an issue. Air? You have 175 psi compression. It "sucks and squeezes". Ignition? It sparks and it is clean. It could "Bang". What left? Fuel and it don't "Blow". Like others said, I'd get back in the carb first. If you have too little fuel, then you will have a clean plug. What color 2000? |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by jimbob57 on 02/04/07 at 11:28:41 Thanks for the reply and it's yellow :) |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by jimbob57 on 02/04/07 at 11:36:59 Good afternoon all. I bypassed the petcock with an old cooling tank that I've used before to work on bikes. Did not change anything. So, I pulled the valve and clutch cover. The pin on the cam sprocket is at 12:00 facing the top, valves are all closed and the dot on the crank is at 3:00 facing the front of the bike. This is where the engine stopped when I shut it off. I haven't pulled the plug from the generator side or checked to see if it was on the compression stroke, running out of time before I have to go to a funeral this afternoon. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Greg_650 on 02/04/07 at 12:08:50 jimbob57 wrote:
Well. Guess what. It should be at 1:00. Do check to see if the crank is at 3:00 before doing anything. The cam doesn't have too far to turn. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by jimbob57 on 02/04/07 at 15:31:49 [center]Thanks to all of you who have taken the time and pitched in with experience. [/center]I can't imagine doing something like this to someone's motorcycle but it was deliberately set out of time. This guy is a real piece of work to mess up so much on a bike and never fix the initial problem. Tomorrow I will get a alternator gasket, the head plug and another crank seal plug and put this bad boy back together. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Greg_650 on 02/06/07 at 11:33:44 Running yet? |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Fido_the_Cat on 02/06/07 at 20:17:10 Greg_650 wrote:
Hoping to get another bike to rise from the ashes to be a proper ride for the "Lady in Waiting"? Sounds like he is well on his way. How's it going Jimbob57? |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by jimbob57 on 02/10/07 at 13:56:13 It lives!!! And runs like crazy!! Thanks to all who shared and helped. The cam and crank timing was close to 90 degrees off. Talked with the former owner afterwards and she adimtted that the last mechanic was an exboyfriend.. not a good move ladies. Anyway, we've insured, tagged and inspected it. Added a K&N air filter, some odds and ends, missing bolts, washers etc. Will put on a front tire soon depending on how much my wife or I ride it. Again, thanks to you all, couldn't have done it without you. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Greg_650 on 02/11/07 at 07:49:06 jimbob57 wrote:
Nothin' worse than a mechanic with only testosterone in his toolbox :) Great that it's fixed. |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by aussie_biker on 02/11/07 at 12:36:47 Greg_650 wrote:
It is absolutely amazing the amount of people out there that call themselves mechanics because they own a set of spanners. Years ago I had an oil leak on a bike & didn't have time to chase it so took it to a bike shop. One week & $300 later I was the proud owner of a list of things wrong with the bike (that I already knew) & an oil leak. Totally peed off I made the time to look for myself. 1 20cent o ring on the starter & my garage floor was clean again.Unreal. >:( |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Greg_650 on 02/11/07 at 14:45:42 Let me guess...this o-ring? http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/StarterOring02web.jpg |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by aussie_biker on 02/11/07 at 15:07:45 Greg_650 wrote:
Thats the one all right. From memory the o ring with the bike manufacturer sticker on the packet was $2 & had to be ordered. Across the road at the bearing supplier it was 20 cents & a stock item.Guess who goes to the bearing supply co. for all occasions now. ::) |
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Title: Re: timing issur? Post by Greg_650 on 02/11/07 at 18:56:51 aussie_biker wrote:
Don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out...except that I must have gone to the dealer. You are right :P |
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