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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1167817244 Message started by ickb on 01/03/07 at 01:40:44 |
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Title: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by ickb on 01/03/07 at 01:40:44 I have about 4800mi on my Honda Rebel city and highway. I have no oil leaking, no backfiring or no other related quirks on the Rebel. I have no problems riding the Rebel 250 in city streets or at highway speeds of an indicated 75+mph if I have to keep up with traffic. I just keep to service recommendations, clean and oil the chain, check oil, fill it with gas and the Rebel pretty much takes care of itself. I've done a search on this board and found all the Savage/S40 threads, reading former threads. Bringing up an old subject, but a different topic on.. "How reliable is the S40 compared to the Rebel 250. As was previously mentioned we know about the back-fire problem cured by working the carb, the oil leak problem on the oil plug. Gasket integrity may not be as good as the Rebel. Ergonomics is the similar as I had test rode an S40, with more torque and power.. but not as flickable as the Rebel 250. The only reason why I bring this up is that my present secondary bike is the Honda Silverwing 600. It rides great, a lot of recalls when it first came out.. but very automotive like the Goldwing in a scooter-motorcycle way. I'm definitely addicted to the Rebel 250 and won't give it up; but I would consider the S40 even though I know it isn't as comfortable nor as powerful as the Silverwing. When I'm riding my Rebel, I know I'm on a motorcycle and enjoy the pleasure of riding a motorcycle. When I had my former Goldwing and now Silverwing, there are times I feel more like I'm in a car with 2 wheels. Other than all the recalls on the Silverwing that I had to perform when I first got it, then having all the rattles taken out of the plastic pieces with 'stick tape' --the Silverwing runs great. What I am saying I would rather have 2 reliable motorcycles and willing to forego the comfort of the Silverwing scooter, but not at the expense of reliability.. I love the ergonomics, simplicity and style of the S40.. Having never owned the Suzuki Savage/S40 how reliable is the Savage/S40 on a day to day basis.. and what type of ‘quirks’ am I up against if I pick up the S40 ??? |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by babbalou on 01/03/07 at 03:28:41 I've only put 3,900 miles on mine but it's never stranded me. Almost did once, but that's from me screwing up the vacuum hose after a carb mod. It earned my trust in 2 1/2 years & I'd gladly take it across the country, along with a bottle of painkillers. ;D I'd like to see how many miles I could get out of it but it's getting traded in for a V-Strom this Saturday. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by steelwolf on 01/03/07 at 03:49:50 I'm a daily rider and would take mine anywhere, leaving the wrenches at the house. There isn't a more reliable motorcycle made in my opinion. With enough seat time the comfort becomes a non-issue and the only "quirk" to me would be the belt squeal, though mine hasn't squealed since taking the wheel off the last time to put on the HD fender. One question though, how can you say that it is not as powerful as a 600 silverwing? Have you ever rode a Savage/S40? |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by justin_o_guy on 01/03/07 at 07:10:17 This is the only bike I've had for any length of time. It is also the most fun to diddle with. Stock, runs okay, good mileage, Ho screamin HUMMM. Had an electrical gremlin, well, still have it, but installed an 'Emergency" start button under the frame at the right front corner of the seat. Now I can go when I want. The clutch & kickstand interlock switches are known problems. The solution is simple, effective, free and offers the opportunity to familiarize yourself with you bike.The valve adjustment is simple.I am glad I don't have hands the size of catchers mits , tho, cuz the room there is tight.Tank removal prior to everything except washing the thing gets a bit tedious.The spark plug door became something I decided was a good enough idea to do it, finally. Had I done it sooner I could have avoided 2 tank removals.The buzzing in the odometer is easily fixed with some thin adhesive backed foam between the speedo & tank. NOw, it's reliable as any machine & the little daily stuff that just irritate are addressed.Reliability can be negatively affected by riding style & maintenance habits. Lousy maintenance habits couled with a harsh riding style & I don't see this one staying under anyone.I've seen 85,000 miles on a savage. Bikes don't see that kind of mileage if they aren't dependable. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by mornhm on 01/03/07 at 08:25:38 When I had my Savage, I rode it daily. It was not 100% reliable, but was easily fixed. There are things on the Rebel that are the same way. For example: I would say the Rebel chain drive is going to be less reliable than the Savage belt, but it would be easier to fix. I wouldn't want to take either MC for a 3,000 mile trip, and not just because they wouldn't be reliable, but just because they aren't made for that kind of cycling. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by vroom1776 on 01/03/07 at 09:18:02 small things that tend to go bad: ignition switch (semi rare), side stand interlock, fuel petcock, battery. all of these can prevent the bike from starting. one big problem is that the cam chain tensioners tend to go bad anywhere from 15k miles to 25k miles. fairly easy to repair. I have two and love them both. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by ickb on 01/03/07 at 12:47:10 Quote:
Yes, steelwolf. I was able to test drive the S40. Regarding the feeling of 'raw torque' at low RPMs the S40 has the lead. I am looking at the S40 as a communter bike and not as a touring bike which is where the Silverwing excels. You can cruise 90+ all day long on the Silverwing with no vibration. There is a speedlimiter on the Silverwing that kicks in at an indicated 110mph. The claimed HP on the S40 is said to be about 30hp while the Silverwing claim is about 48hp. Since I never dynoed these bikes personally, I can't vouch for the figures above other than what I read.. and the short S40 test drive does not classify me worthy to comment on the S40 reliability :-X . I'm not looking at the S40 with regards to horsepower or a touring bike. I have owned 2 Hayabusas of which one was stolen.. and after having 2 sportbikes and 1 Harley Road King Classic stolen.. I have bought bikes that are on the "least stolen list". I just haven't had the opportunity to drive the S40 on a day to day basis like many of you do on this forum. I don't consider my test drive experience on the S40 to be an accurate accessment to those of you who have ridden your Savage/S40 on a day-to-day, year-to-year basis. I do like the ergonomics, belt drive, simplicity of the S40 and it is these qualities within given parameters of hopeful 'Reliability' that I am considering buying the S40. FYI - The Silverwing rides nicely now, but dealing with the recalls of the real wheel, gas tank, handle bars, centerstand by Honda with the Silverwing sometime 2 months in the shop waiting for parts on recalls was not encouraging. Then the headache of getting the rattles out of the plastics pieces, faulty fork seals going out, etc. It's a nice long distance and daily commuter, but I wouldn't buy another Silverwing. I've already been through 2 Honda Reflexes in 2006 >:( and very disappointed with 'Quality Control' on the Reflex. I've had no problems and no quirks with the Suzuki Hayabusa during the 3 years of ownership between both Hayabusas. I would have no problems buying another Hayabusa, but until the theft issue is resolved.. I rather be riding :) than constant worry about my motorcycles being stolen :-[ |
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Title: Thank you for your quick responses Post by ickb on 01/03/07 at 12:59:33 Thank you for your quick responses to my question :D I am aware the S40 is a "niche market" serving a specific purpose much like the Honda Rebel. My question was directed regarding reliability and the ability to EXCEL within this "niche market" of using S40/Savage as a daily commuter on city streets and highway cruising :) |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by vroom1776 on 01/03/07 at 13:07:40 I ride and abuse mine as much as I can. it keeps ticking. vibey on the highway, and a little slow after 65 mpoh or so, in stock form, anyway. It will do all that you want for at least 10k miles. after that, the cam chain tensioenr is likely to need replacing. if you don't replace it, you can really screw up the engine. all the stuff I mentioned above can make it not start, but there are ways around that. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by Savage Librarian on 01/03/07 at 13:17:41 The basic form of the S40 has been around for 20 or so years (although there were some gaps here in the US). Like the Rebel, Shadows, etc., they've had a chance to work the vast majority of bugs out of the bike. No bike is 100% reliable, as I'm sure you know. But the S40 isn't likely to let you down when you need it. The only problem I've had is one that I caused through my own bad decision (and resulted in a crash course in carbs). I would have no reservations about the reliabilty of the S40 as use as a commuter (having, after all, used a Savage as such for several years). When I first bought it I considered the 250s of various makes, and decided on the LS650 for it's extra power (commuting 45 minutes at speeds ranging from 35 to 55, mostly at 50mph). If I only had my present commute, I may have gone with a 250 (20-30mph) for it's slightly lower weight and "flickability." I don't know that it is any more reliable than the rebel, but it's certainly reliable. And as noted, when something does go wrong, it's easy to fix. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by Jim_R on 01/03/07 at 13:37:44 I would take a Savage against a Rebel 250 any day! I did read something interesting today in wikipedia. The Savage utilizes Suzuki's "Big Single" power plant, a ~30 horsepower air-cooled , 652 cubic centimeter, 4-stroke one cylinder, SOHC engine, affectionately known as a "Thumper" engine. This engine had a serious durability issue, caused by the combination of plain camshaft bearings and almost two feet of oil feed line to the cylinder head. The long oil feed meant that after a cold start, the camshaft ran dry for several seconds, leading to frequent camshaft seizures in the long run. Wow is there really 2 feet of oil line wraped up in there? |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by vroom1776 on 01/03/07 at 14:13:10 I've never heard of a savage having camshaft seizure due to starting oil pressure concerns. Setting the idle rpm too low could cause this problem, though. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by steveh on 01/03/07 at 14:56:08 I understand where you are coming from, as right now my 2001 Rebel is my daily commuter. My commute is short, but with over 9k on the Honda, its reliability has been perfect. I have replaced the original tires, but that's it! I have babied the bike from new and still average 80 mpg day in and day out. I would not hesitate to take the Honda anywhere. I bought my Savage because I want a bike that is physically bigger than the Honda. I am hoping that after my initial repairs/restoration is done, the Savage will be a reliable commuter. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by steelwolf on 01/03/07 at 15:20:21 You will not be dissapointed. ;) |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by firsts40 on 01/03/07 at 18:54:21 :) Ickb, I have a 2006 S40 I bought in July and have 2850 milers on it. I ride with the Patriot Guard Riders and have run around 70+ MPH with them for about 75 miles at a time. I ride it mostly as a commuter back and forth to work, around 12 miles round trip. Back and forth to work I am going anywhere from 25 MPH to 65 MPH. So far, it has run flawless. As far as power goes, it stays with the HDs on acceleration going on the highways, and has no problem keeping up with them during passing accelerartions within reason. I have road it on 400 mile round trip with the PGR, and it was beginning to get a little uncomfortable at the end of the day, but nothing severe. I get around 58 to 64 MPG depending on the type of riding I do. The S40 feels very happy at speeds between 50 and 65. To sum it all up, the S40 is a great little bike and very dependable. In two years I may think about going to the S50 or C50, but it has nothing to do with the way the S40 rides. You have to love the S40 as is, for what it is. :) 8) |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by ickb on 01/03/07 at 20:56:01 I will look into the S40. I'm like "steveh", basically keeping my Rebel, but want something similar on 'steroids', but not looking toward a GXR or V-Twin; since, I've already had these bikes before. Jim_R, I also saw the camshaft seizures and 2 feet of oil plumbing in wikipedia to my surprise before joining this forum and it also had me curious. It seems that the S40 has enough problems from the get go with the 'back firing' issue, the 'oil plug' issue and even oil leaking issue, which seems common >:(. Something I have to address and fix upon taking ownership of an S40. The S40 I test drove did back fire. Some of the other issues on the board regarding 'cam chain' and other parts that can wear out in time with normal use. firsts40 -it looks like the performance and top speed of the S40 is very similar to the Rebel except the S40 accelerates quicker to get to speed. I felt this immediately during my test drive on the S40 even though I didn't have a chance to get it on the freeway and test it at highway speeds. Much like the early Harleys where you expected problems before even buying a Harley. By the time I picked up my Road King Classic the bugs were worked out... no oil leaks, smooth at highway speeds with the rubber mounts, 110mph indicated top speed. The minor problems had been worked out. More servicing for the Harley with oil change and service every 2500mi intervals :o Hoping that most of the bugs are worked out of the S40 so I can ride and enjoy without constant tinkering I had to do on some of the other bikes I've owned :P |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by Dynobob on 01/03/07 at 21:20:28 ickb wrote:
Keep in mind that Wikipedia can be written by anyone. Take that report with a grain of salt. These are very well engineered bikes which have been produced since the late 80s. There's no problem with oil pressure at low rpms. They would never make it past the design stage if that were true. Quote:
Not even close. The S40 will cruise comfortably at 65 or 70 all day. The Rebel will not. As for comparing the reliability - Hondas are renowned for their durability. They typically last a very long time. The S40/LS650 is a great bike too. It has a few minor quirks but nothing that would detract from it's reliability. Just get one and ride the tires off it. It will take it. It's an extremely fun bike that does most everything well - around town cruising, highway riding, twisties. The Rebel is a great bike but it's only a 250. It is quite limited on the top end which keeps it from being used much for extended highway riding. No such worries with the S40. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by ickb on 01/03/07 at 22:44:07 Quote:
I am aware of this and Wikipedia can also be modified by anyone so the information is only as accurate as the person's input or modifications to the information. It was just strange to see why someone would mention this 'camshaft' issue and ignore the 'backfire' and 'oil plug' issue which is more prevalent. Quote:
One thing I have to agree is that while going 70+mph, I don't trust the Rebel in trying to past cars by out accelerating them. I've done it before, I just don't trust the Rebel much when I am passing a car going 70+mph. On something like a 650 Savage and above. Personal weight doesn't have much to do with how fast you can go. If you see many of the riders on a Harley, you can understand why they are called HOGs... some of them have to be tipping the scales at 280-300+lbs. When I weighed 170lbs on my first Rebel, 85 mph was like 'seeing my life pass before my eyes' :o while riding my Busa, RC51, Valkyrie, Goldwing, BMW, Harley, etc. made no difference. I put myself on a diet loss 40lbs and dropped to 130lbs. at 5'6" made a big difference in riding the Rebel 250 ;D. Granted a man standing at 6'5" and 280-300lbs would barely fit on a Rebel 250 let alone be able to ride one comfortably. Losing weight in my gut area of 40lbs made cruising the Rebel at 70-80mph no problem. I just like the "lazy" torque acceleration power of the S40 from a standing start while I have to rev the Rebel harder to get up to speed. If I drop below 130lbs, I'll be more anorexic than thin.. more dangerous than being slightly overweight and not worth the risk to my health just to get the Rebel 250 to pull less weight :-[ It is good to hear that the S40 can cruise at a decent 70+mph. Doing a Google search often leads to articles on both the S40 and Rebel 250 saying that 60-65mph is as fast as they go :( . Owners like yourself who ride the S40 on a day to day basis know better than the magazine writer who borrows a bike for the weekend then claims to be an expert on the bike >:( The Rebel is my daily commuter while my Silverwing is now basically my backup bike ;D |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by azjay on 01/04/07 at 06:30:37 i have not seen a cam shaft seizure/failure on this forum, and we have bikes all over the world, in every type of riding condition. other than normal wear and tear, and a couple of quirks, these things a quite sturdy. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by slavy on 01/04/07 at 10:39:12 Yes, it is truth. There are more seized LS cams, than all the rest of the bikes together.Why ? 1. Savages have needle conn. rod bearings, so they don't damage the crank. The rest of the bikes start knocking and the engine gets replaced. 2.650cc and only 2qt oil, so You have to watch more. 3.Cheap beginner's bike. Most of the owners are not capable to maintain even a bicycle. The same applies to the Rebel, the only thing is that the Savage is a real bike and it is more tempting to keep high speeds. In my opinion all the real problems are caused by the owner's stupidity and negligence. Just for the record- in this moment i have a seized 4000 mile Rebel engine, just because the former owner was riding it on the highway between Phx and Cassa Grande for less than a month and did not bother to check the oil. Like a summary- Savage is as reliable as the Rebel, cost just about the same, weights just about the same, has a better sitting position /yes, it is truth/, doesn't have the air filter box and the battery box digging in the tighs of shorter riders, the gas consumption is a little higher /50 compared with 60 mpg/. So far they are the same, but like a fun factor I'd give Savage 5 stars and I'd give Rebel 2 stars. The decidion is Yours. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by Dynobob on 01/04/07 at 12:29:26 ickb wrote:
All Hondas are off by about 5 mph. That's still pretty fast :) It is a very capable machine but not one I'd want to spend much time on the Interstate on. My Savage is quite happy at 65-75 mph after I replaced the muffler and rejetted it. Hondas are very reliable. The water cooled models even more so. You'll be happy with an S40. It feels like a 250 but can do much more. |
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Title: Slavy what is your recommendation(s)? Post by ickb on 01/04/07 at 13:41:07 Slavy, I understand your point of view fo how the S40 camshafts can seize on an S40 as you made a comparison with the seized Rebel engine. Low to No engine oil = engine problems. What is your recommendation(s)? Make sure you have enough engine oil in the S40?.. or because of the needle bearings the S40 is more prone than other motorcycles to have problems? ??? |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by Island_Biker on 01/04/07 at 13:48:15 Without getting into the reliability issue, which I believe is more a matter of how a bike is cared for and ridden than the manufacturer. I have owned both bikes and one thing that hasn't really been mentioned yet (or if it was I missed it) is the importance of being able to jump out of the way of other traffic when necessary and there is no way the Rebel can compare. That fact alone made me feel much safer on the Savage. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by slavy on 01/04/07 at 14:17:26 Answer about the kind of connecting rod bearings: The most of the bikes have plain crank shaft bearings that are more sensitive to lack of oil /like an example - extended wheelies/. The Savage doesn't have this problem, so instead of havving a bad crank shaft, first You end up with damaged cam shaft journals, lobes, and damaged rocker arms if You don't have enough lubrication. Usually the nasty knock is enough to stop You before You hurt the rest of the engine. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by ickb on 01/05/07 at 18:54:32 Quote:
That is one of the main aspects as I am looking at the S40. I'm not concerned with top end speed. It is said the Ninja 250 can do an indicated 110 which I have done before with the Ninja 250 before. You have to rev the Ninja 250 hard. The torque on the S40 is right there to give you the jump from a standing start without reving it hard :D from what I read on this board going an indicated 110mph is not something that the S40 is capable, neither is the Rebel 250. |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by justin_o_guy on 01/05/07 at 19:39:49 Whether the Honda will outlast the Zooki or not, I dunno. I can say this, tho, I am ahving an absolutely oBSCENE amount of fun with the Zooki. The people here have taught me things & given me the courage to"go for it" on things I just would not have done without them & their experience & expertise. My bike is a totally different ride now than 3 months ago. Not that much $$$ & tons O fun. Yea, the Honda will deliver all kinds of MPG. I gave some MPG Up, but, dang, I don't worry about pulling out in front of someone & NOT having the stuff to get outta the way. Funny about the post above. I am tinkering with the idea of a Ninja 250. They scoot on & handle really well I hear. Not gonna have the acceleration but will fly around a corner. I kinda think a Zooki & Ninja might be a good pair of bikes to own, depending on how a fellow felt on any given day, one of those oughts do the trick. Wouldn't ya think? |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by ickb on 01/06/07 at 00:01:03 Quote:
Regarding Reliability, I was thinking more on a day to day basis of the S40 not breaking down and being trouble free :D Regarding longevity of the S40, I was hoping at least 50,000mi with the exception of change of tires and other parts that will wear out with normal use. Quote:
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I think both the Zooki & Ninja would be great. I may have gone this route if I didn't have the Silverwing. The Ninja 250 has the centerstand so oiling the chain is very simple and the S40 even easier with belt drive like my Silverwing. At an indicated 110mph on the Ninja 250, it sounds like a sewing machine, but nowhere near the low end to midrange torque of the S40. I do the kerosene "clean" and lube the Rebel chain every 600mi. A little messy with no centerstand, but can get the job done in about 10-15 minutes. The S40 sounds like an excellent bike to have, but when reading the posts.. I have to pretty much be ready to do the carb job at the get go and the oil plug after 600mi service. :-/ Does that pretty much cover it for the S40 at least at the beginning ??? I want to get it reliable to begin with before making any major modification like what I have seen some of you do here on the boards. Some of you are full out Savage mechanics that Suzuki should just employ as advisors to get rid of the quirks that shouldn't there to begin with ;D |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by PerrydaSavage on 01/06/07 at 02:39:31 As far as the infamous LS650 head plug leak goes, it is unlikely that you'll experience that problem with an S40 as Suzuki replaced the original subject-to-leaks plug with a better designed one, on the LS650 after the 2001 model year |
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Title: Re: Reliability of Suzuki S40 vs. Honda Rebel 250? Post by justin_o_guy on 01/06/07 at 10:05:51 Seeing an indicated 90 on the Savage is a rare thing I think. Doesn't matter to me. If I want a fast bike I will get a different bike. I like this thing. It offers a good ride, lots of fun. I don't need a faster bike, I would get hurt. This one is fast enough to lure me so close to the edge I have to be careful. If I wanted a crotch rocket I would be forced to get a Ninja 250, cuz it won't wheelie out from under me & doesn't have the power to just toss me off in a corner if I am in the wrong gear. In fact, I am considering just such a bike. But, for now, this Zooki, with the grunt it has & the acceleration it offers it just makes me grin. On top of that, it does it & still returns fair MPG, all with a really inexpensive bike. If I didn't own one, knowing what I now, I do believe, I would want one. |
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