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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
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Message started by justin_o_guy on 01/02/07 at 09:29:26

Title: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/02/07 at 09:29:26

I found an article about our bikes. It IS brutal. It also offers some very real SOUNDing advice. I have about zip experience & what I do have is on this bike.
http://personal.inet.fi/business/tumi/pg/BfaS.pdf

I know I will be jacking the idle up now since I read this. He says the reason Zooki wants it up is to keep the oil pressure high enuff to keep the top end protected. I have mine just above flame out.
He talks about suspension mods, carb tuning, air filters & air boxes & the theory behind the air box. I just thot it was a place to stick an air filter! OHH geeeze! So, we love the bike with all its warts & this guy shines a high intensity spotlight on ever single wart & then offers a few possible answers.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Greg_650 on 01/02/07 at 10:24:01

Aw, no sweat. He aspires to be a writer, has an agenda, and is passionate about his own beliefs.

The downside of the article is that he doesn't use a spell checker. The upside is that his rambling sentence structure will bore you quickly enough to save you from reading all 89 pages.

If you have time to waste, it will be well spent.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/02/07 at 10:36:36

I think the technical aspect of the info outweighs the less than wonderful writing style. What agenda he has is unclear to me. Seems he is offering as many ways to get the most out of a Savage from handling to power.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Greg_650 on 01/02/07 at 10:51:32

justin_o_guy wrote:

Ah, but he starts with the premise that the bike requires all these improvements...

Just sort of turned me off because not only does he think the bike needs the mods, but that we also need to be informed.

It's a tough job, but I guess he's got to do it :)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Tumi on 01/02/07 at 12:05:21

Hello,

No, I don't aspire to be a writer. Far from it, maybe the opposite. As people who've read the article may know, I wrote it so I wouldn't need to write same nuts over and over again. For example during beginning of 2006 January to April, before getting the article online, I got 61 e- mails concerning Savage technical matters, nearly all because of the first short article on Thumper Page. Answering 10 or 20 mails a month in a foreign language, same questions and topics, grows old after a few years. Now people who otherwise would e-mail me, may read the article, whether or not they like it is not up to me. I would have answered them the same way had they e-mailed me straight. The article does not exist to please anybody, it exists to cut down my incoming e-mails and it has worked well. I did not write the article to say you had to do all this, but to remind you there is still room to go beyond larger main jet and a shaved spacer so if people are not satisfied with the results from a rejet or other usual mods (not everyone is), there are still some possibilities instead of selling the bike and buying an Intruder. What people easily forget is that Savages have been around for 20 years and also for 20 years there have Savage riders doing modifications. I took a quick look at the first page of this forum for a look of technical things - there seems to be little progress from what Savage people did in the eighties and nineties, before www, before forums, before nice 'expert' post counts. Back then people had to find out things themselves.

My passion about my own beliefs is based on my experiences. I rode my Savage for over 50 000 kms in about 30 months (no commuting), and I would have kept the bike much longer if it hadn't rot in every imaginable way by the time I sold it 'as is' 70 000km on the odo. Rust and heavy oil consumption, plus not being able to do meaningful two up touring were the main reasons why I didn't want to do a complete overhaul and keep it. At the time I thought no 650 midsize bike wouldn't last longer - right now I've a 650 (not a Suzuki) with 110 500 kms on the odo, original clutch, original valves, cam chains, everything, very small oil consumption. That is why I don't value Savages as highly as people on Savage forums generally do, just because I wore one out one much sooner than my next bike seems to. I've heard lots of Savage riders state their bikes run and last forever - even people who may have covered 10 or 15 thousand miles on their bikes. That's very nice beginning, but still a beginning, 20 k miles on a Savage is early days yet. But what do I know - my post count on this or other bike forums is minimal (apart from Heise site years ago) so understandably there's no way I could know about medium term and mileage durability on this or any other bike.

.. to be continued ..

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Tumi on 01/02/07 at 12:07:43

.. part 2 ..

Since selling the Savage I started to do some bike maintenance side work with small things, valve adjustments, brake and carb overhauls, and finally became friends with a national A class racer and have helped him since 1996 or so, in 600 Supersport A, 600 Std and 600 Stocksport classes, mostly national but also a few Scandinavian races. No amount of street bike riding or maintenance has taught me about serious bike maintenance as much as hundreds of race weekends camping in paddocks. This is why I think I know something about performance modifications. I won't say anyone shouldn't put on a, say, HD exhaust if he/she likes it, but as a serious performance modification.. no, never. Next one who mails me to tell original HD exhausts are the best power upgrade to any bike should first explain me why even Harley guys want to get rid of the pipes in the first place.

I honestly think Savage culture and heritage could use a kick forward, maybe slightly away from HD exhausts and vinyl fringes, 'plug reading' and some of the wrong kind of biker mentality. Singles don't need to be developmental backwater. For a nice thumper example take a look at this (http://njaa.pp.fi/dr/) local supermoto thumper. Suzuki DR762, Schnitzer S 39 turbo, intercooler, oil cooler, Megasquirt v3 EFI, lots of carbon fiber parts which owner made himself plus suspension and brakes from several donor bikes. There are few reasons why a Savage could not have basically same engine modifications. I would really like to see Savage, not necessarily just like this, just a bit like this, improving handling and performance in a noticeable way.

In regards to missing spell checker there actually is one in my Finnish MS Word, but I never know should I use the US english or British english spelling because there are readers from all over the globe. That's why I don't use it. I know Americans have a funny way of saying 'tires' and 'grey' and 'awesome' but I've never learnt the finer points of the dialect. Maybe someone would point out the most glaring mistakes so I may correct them at the next version edit. Also, those who say they know far better than me, I honestly need every bit of performance minded technical info you could give me, there's another racing season appearing and we need to run against riders 20 years younger and 80 pounds lighter, some of which have had wildcard rides in WSS and WSB. Any help is appreciated, thank you.

And, finally, no I don't sneer at the bike you ride. Do not forget I used to ride one myself. I may sneer, for example, to people who do more forum posting than actual riding. I think bike fraternities, including Savage 'community' do not need posing, lots of ordinary riding should do just fine, stock or modified bike.
If anyone wants to comment my view of things, my e-mail is rdr647 (at) netti.fi . Mention 'Savage' or LS650' so your mail won't be spam filtered.

Best regards,

Tumi Laamanen
Finland

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by barry68v10 on 01/02/07 at 20:04:25

Thanks to Tumi for the info and the time to write the article.

It's like I keep saying, it's all about your expectations. I expected good gas milage, better than average-car performance, and wind whipping past my head on the hiway at 70 mph, with no chain or radiator to mess with. The Savage has met my expectations. Since I paid $1700 for the bike, even if I get 25000 miles out of her, I'll be way ahead since I would never be willing to pay $17000 for a bike I could get 250,000 miles out of (no, I don't ever expect to own a Goldwing...)

The Savage fits the bill nicely in my current version of reality ;D

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by geo on 01/02/07 at 21:02:05

Gee's
This guy will never write for a newspaper. He doesn't say anything with all those words.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Paladin on 01/02/07 at 22:55:01

You can boil it down to six words: "Not what I was looking for."

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/02/07 at 23:18:57

I appreciate the time the man took to put out something I can use. I certainly don't expect to see me tearing thaT thing down & checkin the Squish band. That's more than I want to be doing. However, should I find myself in there I just may give it a go.
I had the idle too low, thought it sounded cool Idled up to make sure the oil pressure is enough to protect the top end.
I just got finished increasing the volume of the airbox in the area between the filter element & the carb. No grit in the air passages so filter is doing its job.
I also grooved the brake shoes & now have decreased the surface area by between 30 & 50 percent. I feel confident it will stop. Maybe now it won't lock up so easily.

REEL< aluminum base shoes> Are EBC's different?

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Reelthing on 01/03/07 at 03:45:50

Yes, the EBCs frames are coated steel - seem to be a bit higher friction than OEMs

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by rokrover on 01/03/07 at 07:32:30

Paladin wrote:

You can boil it down to six words: "Not what I was looking for."

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Greg_650 on 01/03/07 at 10:01:19

Is it safe to come out now?

:)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by barry68v10 on 01/03/07 at 10:48:22

I started a lengthy response last night but decided not to post. In essence, what I think Tumi missed is that "low-end torque" is more what "big torque" means to a thumper rider. The LS 650 runs even with an SV 650 thru 4000 RPMs. Low end torque is what makes for a much more "streetable" engine in my book, especially in stop & go traffic and low speed city driving. At 60 MPH, I had to drop my Magna TWO GEARS to get into the power band. On the other hand, I still remember my KZ1000 fondly...

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Ed_L. on 01/03/07 at 13:51:41

It is what it is, there are enough different types of bikes out there so it would make more sense just to get a different bike instead of trying to reinvent a Savage. And as to busting on the sportster muffler, well most Harley riders want thier bikes to be LOUD which is why they toss the stock mufflers. The sporty muffler has better chrome, weighs less and is better quality than the can that Suzuki hung on the savage and it still is one of the cheepest performance mod along with a rejet advailable. If you want it louder drill the baffle out. Oh yeah, nobody will argue that the quality control on the savage is dismal at best, you get what you pay for. JMHO on it all ;D

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Tumi on 01/03/07 at 15:49:52

Hello,

this is my last comment on the matter. I just had an e-mail conversation with an old Heise regular and he made some very good points about all this.
If the article is mostly seen as irritating waste of time, then it's basically useless and I'll have no problems taking it offline. The reason I won't do it right now is in a few weeks I would likely begin to receive the same questions I used to get, like where people can buy original parts in Montana or how to solve the rubber plug leak. What I'll probably do is, after getting one SW project done, I'll mutilate the article from most of the remarks and leave something compact, maybe mention that there are a few forums where people can discuss Savage specific questions instead of mailing me. As I also heard my article was said to be technically much too shallow, I may add some 1-2-3 information about for example industrial belt mod or a headlight rewire with relays, although I've no idea if they already are common mods these days so maybe I'll add nothing.

But I won't begin to use a spall chequer.

Best regards,

Tumi Laamanen
Finland

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by serowbot on 01/03/07 at 16:45:40

My frik'in browser won't open the pdf! Probably cause I'm still using win98se.
Can anyone post a plain text version?
If not, I get from the posts that I should keep my idle up, anything else I should know?
Also, doe's anyone have anything on an airbox mod to increase the carb side volume? I have noticed this area looks restrictive.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/03/07 at 17:30:08

I did one. If ya have it in your hands, look at the part that goes between the frame rails just in front of the rear tire. I covered that belly with a piece of hard plastic, BUT, not before I drilled a hole from the carb side, below the rail the filter rides on. I also capped the area at each end of where the filter sits AND, the little slit above each of those end areas. Takes some pretty good fitting of stuff. I had to use some thin aluminum, wasn't thin enough till I pounded on it a while. UIsed a good bit of epoxy. Gotta watch where that stuff goes or the filter won't wanna go back in. How will this affect the outside "fresh Air" side of the filter's flow? I dunno, but I figure it gave the volume between the carb ^ filter about 120 cc at least. I will open the area where the air horn was to compensate for the volume that side of the airbox lost. Coke can aluminum may be thin enough, but dont use it to cover the main area. It will flex & break for sure. I am worried that the hard plastic I used won't survive. It will last long enough to see if the whole thing was worth doing.

Okay, I filled a measuring cup & it took just shy of 2 cups. A coule of tablespoons shy of 2 cups is good I think. I just checked Google & that 2 cups translates to .9 liters! oughta make a big difference.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by TVR on 01/03/07 at 18:05:02

I'll probably regret throwing my 2 cents in, but I spent a good deal of time sitting in institutions of higher learning and conducting research. It seems dubious to me that anyone could consider themselves an authority on anything based on their experience of owning one of them.
I've owned one Mikuni carb and I have handily trashed it. I'm no authority on Mikuni carbs, only the one that I trashed. And that was my doing.
I think the guy at the shop that works on a lot of Savages would be a much better authority; Or the collective wisdom of a bunch of people that have been brainstorming through issues relating to it for a long period of time.
I have a very good friend from Finland; but I don't judge all Fins based on my familiarity of one.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by SAMM on 01/03/07 at 18:05:55

Why Greg, Is that you with 2 bite marks chewed out of your A$$ ?? hehehehe ;D

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by lancer on 01/03/07 at 18:36:18

Well, isn't this a rousing bit of fun? (no spl ckr)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/03/07 at 18:48:00

Well, I gotta say, I couldn't be more surprised. I appologize for even posting that. If I could take it down I would. I kinda thought folks would look at it & use it where they thought it would help but to see the animosity is disheartening. I figure the guy has a heck of a lot more experience than I do. He also took the time to write all of it. It wasn't done out of hate. If he hated the bike he wouldn't have wasted his time writing this. If I hated one I sure wouldn't go to the trouble of working in a foreign language to post an article that would possibly assist strangers to make mods on their bike to get the most out of them. He never said that in order to have a Savage be worth having all that needed done. He even stated he would still have it but it started rotting away. I wonder how many of you who have been so negative actuially read the whole thing.
I got 2 things out of it I have already used. I am gonna wait & see what response I get for that.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by lancer on 01/03/07 at 19:01:21

I have read most, if not all, of the Savage info that Tumi posted on his site when it first went up for the world to see. There is a lot of good info that he put into it to be sure, however I do find the reading of it to be a bit like the "trying to run in water" kind of thing. Regardless, he put in a LOT of time and effort to produce it and for that I am grateful.

A consolidation of the pertinent data would be a good thing but would certainly take a lot more time to do so.

If you have never read the entire piece, I encourage you to do so ... especially if you are new to the Savage world.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by verslagen1 on 01/03/07 at 20:29:29

What was his name? any relation to Tolstoy?
What read this? I'll wait for the movie.

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Greg_650 on 01/03/07 at 21:57:33

SAMM wrote:

Why Greg, Is that you with 2 bite marks chewed out of your A$$ ?? hehehehe ;D

Yeah, it's me, but someone has a bad taste in their mouth anyway.

:)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Greg_650 on 01/03/07 at 22:23:34

justin_o_guy wrote:

Aw come on....it's not your fault.

If anyone should apologize then it is me. I was just having some of my usual dry, satirical, "Devil's Advocate" fun (I'm known for it).

It's sometimes my way of spicing up the conversation when it looks kinda dull...after all, look at the title of this topic. Is that not kinda like begging for it?

Anyway, I got this whole thread going here, mixed with a whole bunch of conversation, and it only took 4 sentences...

However: To Tumi, from Finland, I apologize. As I mentioned, I did sense a certain passion in your writing. You are passionate about bikes. I understand that. You are a biker. Please feel free to hang around and see how we work on our Savages. We have a lot more than 89 pages written here.

(is that the response you expected?)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Bugscraper on 01/03/07 at 22:40:21

Greg_650 wrote:

Is it safe to come out now?

:)

Ha! Good comeback, Potsie! 8)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Bugscraper on 01/03/07 at 22:47:28

TVR wrote:

I have a very good friend from Finland; but I don't judge all Fins based on my familiarity of one.

I was once attcked by a loan shark; so, I look at all fins suspiciously. ;D

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Greg_650 on 01/04/07 at 05:42:30

Bugscraper wrote:

I was once attcked by a loan shark; so, I look at all fins suspiciously. ;D

Sure it wasn't a lone shark?

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by Bugscraper on 01/04/07 at 21:33:14

Greg_650 wrote:

Sure it wasn't a lone shark?

It was a lone loan shark (didn't see any friends -- his OR mine).
Not really, just made it up. ;)

Title: Re: Certainly not all good news but worth reading,
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/04/07 at 21:44:27

You both pretty funny!

Well, I just wanted folks to read it & apply any of it that suited their needs. Anyway, that's over. Now, I am hunting the guy who works in the bike shop soi I can get some filters! I KNEW I shoulda written his name down..