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Message started by orrin7 on 12/17/06 at 19:07:29

Title: belt drive pulley
Post by orrin7 on 12/17/06 at 19:07:29

does anyone know if the four speed belt drive pulleys are the same as the five speed?

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by Brewbrother on 12/17/06 at 19:12:11

the four speeds were chain driven if memory serves me correctly.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by hutch on 12/17/06 at 19:35:49

brewbrother
According to the part numbers the pulleys have always been the same on all Savages.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by Rockin_John on 12/17/06 at 20:05:08

hutch wrote:

brewbrother
According to the part numbers the pulleys have always been the same on all Savages.

As well as the belts.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by hutch on 12/17/06 at 20:48:08

In all the reseach that I have done between the four and five speed models I have come to the conclusion that basically all that was done was to lower the first four gear ratios and add a fifth. Ending with the same final ratio and same top speed as the four speed. That is the reason I want to be able to change to a chain, which should basically bring the fist four gears back to the original output, and fifth would give you a higher top speed with lower rpm's. It should acelerate the same as the old four speed, with fifth being like an overdrive. Better gas milage, less wear on the motor due to fewer rpm's, and higher top speed if you want.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by Reelthing on 12/17/06 at 21:47:18

chain drives on the ls400, not sold in the US

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by Rockin_John on 12/17/06 at 22:30:38

hutch wrote:

I've been looking over the gear ratio numbers comparing the 4-speed and 5-speed for some time too. Also, I've commented in the past that the ideal solution to the common complaint of top gear not being of a high enough ratio, would not be to change the overall gearing with final drive sprockets, but to actually change the transmission's gearing itself.

Here are the nunbers:

Ratio 4-speed 5-speed
-----------------------------------------------------
1st gear 2.214 2.333
2nd gear 1.500 1.578
3rd gear 1.095 1.142
4th gear 0.875 0.956
5th gear ________ 0.884

Here are some general observations from someone who has only ridden one 1987 model 4-speed Savage:

(1) Wish I had the lower first gear of the 5-speed.
(2) The fourth gear ratio of the 5-speed would probably be really handy putting along at 35-40mph without the engine protesting (lugging/bucking).
(3) I'm glad my 4-speed has the VERY slightly higher top gear ratio; because I certainly wouldn't want it ANY lower when I get on the highway and go 55mph+.
(4) When I finally get around to installing the 140/90-15 tire sitting in my garage, I'm very curious how the revs will feel to me at highway speed.
(5) If I were to go the sproket and chain route, I'd want the 5-speed for sure; because first is almost too high in the 4-speed as it is.

I've also mentioned before that I doubt I'll do anything to change the gearing on my '87 (other than change the rear tire as stated). Nothing has changed about my opinion on that. If I decide I want a real high speed interstate cruising machine, I'll buy another bike.

However, I've already decided to commit myself to keeping the Savage to enjoy for what it is: A fun lightweight torque machine. I dropped the hammer pretty hard on mine the other day from a 4-way stop sign on some smooth asphault, and laid rubber all the way across the itersection! Even got a little drift when I hit second. It left me smiling for several miles thereafter. 8)

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by hutch on 12/18/06 at 07:22:16

Rockin_john
Thank you for the exact gear ratio figures. I was wrong about one thing. They lowered ALL the gear ratios, not just 1-4. That is why the 5 speed accelerates harder, but has a lower top speed than the 4 speed. By going to a chain and different sprocket (on a 5 speed) you would bring yourself in line with the 4sp acceleration, with the added benefit of a low rpm cruising gear in 5th. I want to make clear that the Savage is not my only bike. Ihave 3 larger faster bikes, but the problem is that because of the side affects of the medicine I have to take the rest of my life I am losing muscle density(strength). Just four years ago I could ride my 600lb. bike with no problem I am 5' 10" and 175lbs. Now It's an effort to get it off the side stand. My legs start shaking trying to hold it up at LONG red lights. The heavier bikes will be sold and I will be riding my 500 Bullet on the back roads and the Savage on the Interstate. I definately see no reason to chain drive the 4 gear, but on the 5speed, and in my case the chain sprocket is the way to go. When I finally can't ride any more it will be a sad day. I am just trying to prolong the riding as long as possible. Because I have always lived by the creedo "if it don't lean it aint mean" a trike is out of the question. I will just go from 2 wheels to the wheel chair that sets in the corner of my den staring at me. I just walk past it every day and tell it NOT YET!!
RIDE SAFE
HUTCH

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by hutch on 12/18/06 at 12:54:14

Rockin_John,
Just did some fast calculations and if Smokin_ Blue is right(see BELTvsCHAIN) this is what I will end up with:

4speed 5speed 5 sp with 6%
increase in gearing

1st 2.21 2.33 2.19
2nd 1.50 1.57 1.48
3rd 1.09 1.14 1.07
4th 0.87 0.95 0.89
0.88 0.83

Acceleration would be close to the 4sp. Drop down from 5th to 4th to pass and have more acceleration than the 4sp does in top gear. Cruise in fifth at about 400rpm slower than the stock 5sp. It will cruise at lower rpm than the stock 4sp also. I know a lot of people will think that 400rpm aint that much, but get in you car and idle it a 600, then hold it at 1000 and just think how many more times that piston is going up and down. Less wear on engine, better gas milage. and just about the same perfomance as the old 4sp, with the added cruise gear of 5th.
THANX FOR THE INFO John and Blue

RIDE SAFE
Hutch

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by hutch on 12/18/06 at 13:01:58

Don't know why the columns came out wrong they were fine when I typed in. Last column is for chain drive with 6% gear increase. Take the two bottom numbers and move to 2nd and third column. Sorry!!!!!

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by barry68v10 on 12/18/06 at 13:53:54

Does anyone know if a 29-tooth pulley will fit on the front of a Savage?

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by Brewbrother on 12/18/06 at 16:36:23

Brewbrother wrote:

the four speeds were chain driven if memory serves me correctly.

my bad, I was thinking of the ls400.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by Rockin_John on 12/18/06 at 21:33:03

hutch wrote:

The columns are problematic with the forum software. Try using underlines or hyphens between characters instead of spaces. I undersood you post just the same, and sure most others did too.

It all sounded like good theory too... Until I found this info in a post in the Technical Forum (Differences between '86 and '05 or something like that):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anybody know if the primary drives are interchangable between 4 and 5 speed models?
Thanks.

Clive

Yes. The '86 -'88 models had a Primary reduction ratio of 1.88 with the gears of 68 and 36. After that the ratio was changed to 1.81 with the gears 67 and 37.

Of course the transmission ratios were changed too.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(The numbers are from Ron Ayer's microfische I think.)

So it looks to me like slight difference in the primary reduction between 4-speed and 5-speed may have made the final drive in top gear closer than I thought. Notice I'm not sweating the details of exact numbers; because changing to a bigger rear tire is probably the only change I'll make. Then I can check my beore and after RPM numbers by hooking up my trusty old spark plug wire inductance powered tune-up tach, and taping it to the handlebars temporarily.

Once again, it is my opinion that the problem with Savage gearing is NOT in the primary nor final drive ratios. If I were REALLY serious about getting the Savage gearing perfectt, I'd try to get a real machinist to collaborate on making new gear sets for first and fourth or fifth gear on the main and counter transmisssion shafts. Not an easy thing to do, but it is the ultimate solution IMHO.

Perhaps, Paul, posting as Smokin_Blue on the Chain vs Belt thread could be convinced to lend his machinist experience to discussion of such. I have experience in all shops of manufacturing except machine parts. I can cut, fab, fit, weld, industrial paint. Instrument and electronics tech etc... but I never worked the machine shop. Nor did I care too, but now in semi-retirement I'm wishing I knew more about it. Oh, I'm trained to measure parts with instruments to see if they need replacement, re-chroming etc... I just don't know how to run any machines except a drill press, and I always considerd that more a fab shop job like punching and shearing than a machine shop job.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by barry68v10 on 12/19/06 at 03:58:54

Quote:

After that the ratio was changed to 1.81 with the gears 67 and 37.

OOPS! I don't know what I was thinking. I got stuck in my head that the front sprocket was 23 teeth for some weird reason (maybe that's on my dirtbike ???). At any rate, here's my REAL question:

Will a larger pulley fit on the front of the Savage? The reason I ask about "larger" vs. smaller on the back is we can get a longer belt, but not a shorter one for the Savage.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by barry68v10 on 12/19/06 at 04:04:50

On the other hand, I'd be happy swapping out the fifth gear. But...I'm afraid of the cost of a quality hunk of steel and the cost for the machine-work. You might be able to buy a new bike for that! ;D

Hey, Rockin-John! If you find a good source for such a change, let us know. You may be able to turn this into a business. ;)

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by bentwheel on 12/19/06 at 10:29:21

barry68v10 wrote:

Will a larger pulley fit on the front of the Savage?

No. There is no room in there.
http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2006/12/19/bikepics-750652-full.jpg

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by hutch on 12/19/06 at 13:58:32

barry68v10,
This is what I mean about being stuck with what the manufacturer gives you, no room for a larger front pulley, can't go smaller on the back because you can't get a shorter belt. Live with it or go to chain and play all you want.

Title: Re: belt drive pulley
Post by barry68v10 on 12/19/06 at 14:36:26

I see what you mean, Hutch. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Suzuki sure did a good job of making this thing hard to work on and modify. Although, it's still easier than some other steeds... ;D